I know that really chaps the ass of you f***ing statists in the European Union, who have absolute contempt to notion of nation-states, but that is a fact.
You're making a lot of assumptions aren't you? Ireland where I come from is very much a sovereign nation. We're not part of Schengen, we secured EU opt-outs in the areas of security, defence and justice meaning we can remain militarily neutral and opt in or out of legislation in these areas, we also secured guarantees on the Lisbon Treaty regarding control over ethical issues such as abortion (our abortion laws are the strictest in the EU except for Malta where it's totally banned). Even after Brexit we will retain the existing Common Travel Area with the UK giving us reciprocal rights to live and work in the UK, vote in UK elections etc. This is a totally unique arrangement within the EU. We are very much an independent nation within the European Union.
As far as refugees go, Ireland agreed to take 4,000 over three years. The actual numbers who have arrived so far are about a thousand. There are presently several hundred in Italy which we haven't taken - why is that? Because the Irish government won't allow them into the country until they have been interviewed by the Irish police and had security checks carried out by them. If the Italian authorities don't cooperate (they're dragging their heels on it) and allow the Irish police to do so, those applicants will remain in Italy - and rightly so.
Now here's some more information for you. Ireland is at the bottom of the EU list for accepting asylum seekers (not counting Poland of course!) and we have the highest number of deportations in the EU. So we're no push over. Furthermore we've had a Muslim community for decades, but no Islamic terrorist attacks, no demands for Sharia law etc. It is possible to have a small Muslim community and not have anarchy in your country.
The main concern I have about the refugees arriving in Ireland under the current scheme is that whilst it is necessary and desirable to spread them around the country to avoid 'ghettos' sending them to small towns is a problem in the long run because there is poor infrastructure in those areas, limited public transport etc and ultimately very poor job prospects. That would worry me more than the possibility of any of them being suicide bombers and rapists.
@Atch, what began as a ragamuffin movement
I wasn't the one who made that comment Lyzko :)
over 20k people a year die from Islamic terror.
But not in Europe. The number of people killed by gun crime in the USA is far greater than those killed in Europe by Islamic terror attacks. Judging by the horrific gun attacks carried out this year alone in America, it would be reasonable by your logic to start vetting American nationals before allowing them to enter Europe even on a holiday visa.
What you're suggesting is that Poland, suffers an immense burden because one president, in one member state (Germany), acted unilaterally to set EU immigration policy by telling millions of barbarians to flood into the union
And this is it. This is the nail on the head. How on earth can Poland or Hungary be forced to accept an EU directive that seemingly came from the mouth of one leader without any public (or political) backing ?
It's hard for me to understand how someone can hold such disdain for their own people.
Welcome to Polish Forums :)
There's a handful of members on here who are extremely motivated to contribute to the forum with a very definite anti-Poland bias. Read some of the other more popular threads and it will become self evident what is going on here.
It is possible to have a small Muslim community and not have anarchy in your country.
You're being a little misleading with your suggestion.
By your own admission, Ireland has a small muslim community so you cannot use Ireland as a shining beacon of how muslims integrate into the wider community when just across the Irish Sea are plenty of examples of how they fail to integrate
America is an absolute mess of a country but that's not really a discussion for here.
you have such a great deal of sympathy for these people from cultures which aren't yours
I have no sympathy whatsoever for Islamic fundamentalists, terrorists, or murders and rapists of any nationality or religion. I can assure you that I am not in the least politically correct. I support chemical castration to stop paedophiles and rapists of any race or religion, re-offending and having children etc. The problem with castration is that a castrated male can still go on to be a murderer, possibly out of vengeance. Pity they don't do lobotomies any more. Actually Ireland will soon become the first country in the EU to confiscate the passports of convicted paedophiles so that they can't travel abroad to carry out their disgusting abuse elsewhere.
You are both SO DISMISSIVE about the deaths and rapes that have occurred in Europe
Where did I mention those and dismiss them?? Interestingly if you look at the stats for Germany, the highest rates of crime are commited by asylum seekers from the Balkan States, Morocco, Algeria and the former Soviet Union.
@Spiritus, but Poland is only being asked to take a tiny number of Muslims proportionate to the Polish population so Poland would have a very small Muslim community.
You'd have been the first Irish person I met that was politically correct if you were! Lol... neither here nor there, but an Irish soldier I worked with from Galway had some crazy ideas about.......everything, such as the Jews and CIA created AIDS, and the Jew bankers were responsible for all of Irelands ills.
Anyway. I responded by telling you where I'm from because you literally said "i dont know where you're from."
Moving on. This isn't really some hypothetical situation. I would rather challenge you to point to one example inside the EU where LARGE numbers of refugees/migrants from North Africa&M.E. where a barbaric and savage culture exists, that has effectively integrated into any of our European societies and espoused liberal values?
You know its rather prophetic really, kind of follows the same path as their book. At first, when their numbers are small, they play that victim card as hard as they can, they are victims, everyone is an islamophobe or xenophobe. And in the UK's unending quest to appear tolerant, I could imagine a situation where two guys are about to toss a gay off a rooftop, an officer rolls up, and he says Ohh I'm sorry I have to respect your religion, carry on mates!
The thing is, once they reach a sufficient number, they are no longer victimized refugees and migrants. They start demanding their own courts, they start demanding YOU the HOST NATION, accommodate THEM!
We are as they say, at an impasse. We will defend western liberal values, we will defend what it means to be EUROPEAN. Here is a hint, no one named Sadiq Khan is a Briton. Whatever nonsense is scribbled in his passport is inconsequential to me, he will never be British.
so Poland would have a very small Muslim community.
But why does Poland need a muslim community (apart from the indigenous Tatars in the east) at all? Having a class of muslim welfare pets seems to be regarded as a status symbol in Western Europe but it's a dumb fad that never pays off. Presumably the goal is turn the less well off against each other so the elite can rule undisturbed but that model won't work in Poland....
you literally said "i dont know where you're from."
No I didn't actually say that. It was
I don't know where you are from,
everything, such as the Jews and CIA created AIDS, and the Jew bankers were responsible for all of Irelands ills.
Those would be very uncommon attitudes in Ireland. He may have been winding you up. Irish people tend to do that to Americans :)) They do it with a very straight face so you'd never guess. Modern Ireland is actually a fairly liberal place. Our present Taoiseach (Prime Minister) is gay, half Indian and aetheist :D
But why does Poland need a muslim community
It's not a question of needing one. There's no just no harm in having one. As I say we have a small community of Muslims in Ireland and it's caused no trouble at all. But I do believe that's partly because of our education system where most schools are under the patronage of the Catholic church and the Muslim kids are thus much more fully integrated into the Christian community.
Ok, there may be no harm in having one. However, the Polish people have collectively decided that they don't want one, even if there is no harm. So I don't understand why you have an axe to grind on this with Poland? Do you feel somehow superior to Poles, and therefore just in dictating to them their own domestic policies? I'm trying to understand where you're coming from, because using the supranational EU as an example is a very poor argument. The Brits had a referendum on the EU, and you see how that turned out. Nigel Farage is one of the best politicians of our time, he speaks truth to power, and he is right that if they do not change their course, the UK will not be the last to leave!
Fortunately The British parliament gets to decide who is British - not Americans based in Saudi
Sadiq Khan, son of a hard working tax paying bus driver and a dedicated public servant would seem the very model of assimilation that you question is possible.
So when I become a Polish citizen, I can say that I'm Polish now? Of course not, I will always be American of Portuguese decent. I will never be Polish, despite being a passport holder.
Yes you can say that. Like John Godson or Olisadebe.
You could say it even more if you were born in Poland, educated here, bought up your kids here and paid tax here. Just like Sadiq Khan does in Britain.
At some point one of your Portuguese ancestors became American
Nigel Farage is one of the best politicians of our time,
You can't really make a statement like that because he has never been tested by being in government. Talk is cheap but when it comes to the crunch it's much harder to actually run a country that talk about how it should be run.
the Polish people have collectively decided that they don't want one
The Polish people haven't decided anything. PIS has decided. The public appear to largely support that decision but the decision is based on scare mongering and hysteria, not on any really sound logical basis. A small number of genuine refugees does not constitute being overrun and having your culture destroyed by marauding Muslim hordes of religious maniacs, rapists and murderers. I think it's essential to have strict and tightly controlled immigration policies but that doesn't stop you from accepting some immigrants.
I'm trying to understand where you're coming from,
Where I'm coming from is that the immigration issue is just one of many where PIS is demonstrating contempt for the partnership to which it belongs. Other EU members have honoured their agreements and even at that we have only done a tiny bit to lift the burden off Greece and Italy.
But the real problem I have is that it's part of a much wider issue where PIS thinks that Poland can be part of the EU on its own terms, overturning any previous agreements made since Poland joined, because they were agreed by other governments and not by them. The EU doesn't work that way. If each nation tries to be a member on their own terms alone, then the whole thing becomes impossible to manage. It operates on a basis of consensus reached by compromise.
PIS takes the attitude that they can ignore EU directives and policy in any area they choose to. It's part of an experiment to see how far they can go and continue to get away with it, how much influence that will have on encouraging other potential allies to do the same, how much that will affect the EU in terms of reforms and how much power Poland can exert in a 'new' EU.
@Atch Right, they are doing what countries do, looking out for their own interests first, before the interests of any supranational organization they are a member in. Hence why the EU as a political union is a failure, as a common economic market I think it's a great idea. International relations is predicated upon chaos, nations do what they can get away with, and they weight the benefits versus the consequences, so we will see.
Second point. What evidence do you have that Poles are making their decisions based on fear mongering and scare tactics? It sounds like you are making conclusions based on anecdotes or what you see on TV or perceive. Have you done a nationwide poll of Poles to determine how they are making their decisions? No, of course you haven't. In fact, saying that Poles are making their decisions based on fear mongering and scare tactics, is a very simple way to condescend to the Poles and basically tell them they don't know what they are talking about, but your enlightened friends on the left do. It is a tired argument, and it is honestly so offensive to an electorate to marginalize their opinions and self-determination. Don't miss an opportunity to virtue signal I suppose.
Please again. Where is your EVIDENCE they are making decisions based on fear mongering and scare tactics? EVIDENCE. You made the point, now you better support it with facts. We will all be waiting.
Have you ever spent any time here ? It's now Thursday and in the week so far I cannot remember a single discussion with a Pole about migration - and I spend a lot of time in talking about business, the economy or politics. More prosaic discussions with friends or in bars are about the doctors strike, Lewandowsk, Kaczynski returning, the price of butter or what's in the Lidl ulotka this week.
Immigration is much further down the agenda than you think.
PiS via their elected representatives, of the people. Logic would conclude that at least a sizable portion of Poles agree with their policy, lest they be voted out. That is a pretty standard conclusion in most representative democracies.
I didn't make a leap to say WHY they didn't want refugees, just that they don't, as evidenced by policy decisions. I would love to hear any evidence to the contrary about how Poles have made their decisions based on fear mongering and scare tactics. I'll be waiting for that evidence, apparently Atch can read minds and is insinuating that Poles are all stupid low information voters who don't know whats good for them, but no worries, unelected Ministers of European Parliament do, so everything will be ok.
The members of the European Parliament are elected, including some fairly barmy Polish ones like Korwin Mikke. This is also the only elected office that Nigel Farage has held.
But in any case the refugee deal was not made by MEPs but was agreed by the elected leadership of the 28 member states.
It is strange that several weeks ago you arrived with a fairly innocent questions about finding a job here. Now you seem intent on long illogical generally ill informed rants about migration, cucks, virtue signalling, the perfidy of the EU et cetera et cetera .
Yea CMS fair point. I need to get out of this desert because it is generally making me angry and bitter. But are you saying I shouldn't have an opinion on EU politics? I contributed to the discussions at hand, so all I'm really getting from what you said is that I'm new, and am looking for a job in Poland, so....I shouldn't contribute? Or rather its the content of my opinions, and I shouldn't contribute?
What do you mean 'friends on the left'. I'm not left wing in my political views. I would say I'm firmly in the centre as most Irish people are.
Logic would conclude that at least a sizable portion of Poles agree with their policy, lest they be voted out.
Polish voter turnout generally never exceeds 50% of the electorate and PIS received 37.6% of that vote. So it's by no means a sizable portion of the Polish people. The consistently low voter turnout in itself tells you something about the Polish electorate.
Atch can read minds and is insinuating that Poles are all stupid low information voters
They're not stupid by any means but those who do actually bother to vote can have rather strange logic behind their choices. If you actually read the research carried out by Polish academics themselves on this topic, it might interest you to know that one of the most common reasons for voting for a party is to prevent a senior member from another party whom they dislike from getting into power. The vote is not always given on the basis of the policies of the party they are voting for but on how much the voter distrusts the opposition party.
What evidence do you have that Poles are making their decisions based on fear mongering and scare tactics?
Well how do people of any nationality normally make decisions regarding things like immigration? It starts with a set of values which are the cultural norm in your country. Then people find their views either challenged or confirmed by the material they read, and the TV or radio they watch/listen to. People take note of the opinions of those public figures whom they like or respect or trust. Finally there's your peer group who tend to reiniforce your views. Very few people read research, reports, studies, stats, or any very hard facts when they make their decisions regarding support for government policies. When you have Kaczyński declaring that immigrants spread disease such as cholera and carry parasites etc I'd say that was a bit of scare mongering.
@CMS, well said regarding the MEPs etc. I honestly think that many Americans really don't understand how the EU works at all.
Of course you can contribute. It's a free country and a free forum that is generally well managed - though I think that all of these migrations threads should be rolled into one as they spam the site especially once the US based members have woken up and had their six pack of Schlitz.
But we would have a more sensible debate if you did not speak in cliches that come straight from Breitbart or Rush Limbaugh. In real life nobody has ever used in my presence the words virtue signalling, statist, cuck etc. If they did start talking to me like that I would edge gently away from them or take a sudden interest in the sports game on the TV in the corner of the bar !
A few weeks ago there was some other dude here who started asking about his holiday in the Polish lakes, where to buy the best pierogi etc and quite quickly moved on to race wars and the need for Poland to be dominated by Russians.
The Polish people have voiced their opinion. Cbos, the highest regarding polling agency in Poland, concluded 74% of poles don't want Muslim and me migration. Out of those it further broke down to 90% of pis being against migration and 50 some % of po voters against.
One of the main reasons why po performed so dismally in the elections and pis secured a majority is BC of the migrant crisis and refusing to take in migrants.
So yes poles overwhelmingly reject migration from Me and Africa. We don't want them. We already have a Tatar and Chechen Muslim community that are well assimilated we don't need hordes of young men committing crimes, raping women, causing years of national state of emergency, living on the dole and committing terrorism.
Besides Merkel promoted this as cultural enrichment. It has since become 'sharing the burden.' Well its not our burden and we don't want it.
Perhaps if the migrants were better behaved in western Europe and didn't cause so many problems in their gracious host nations they wouldn't have such a negative image.
They do carry diseases 'unseen in Europe for a long time' as he put it. Ever heard of scabies for example? Not to mention the high HIV rate among sub saharans
MEPs and the unelected commissars like junker are two different branches.
Read this master piece earlier: EU's version of affirmative action, but way scarier theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/27/eu-criticised-leaving-out-ethnic-minorities-diversity-drive
Oh let's have a diversity drive - put people in positions solely based on their ethnicity or orientation. Soooo tolerant
Don't let them wear you down Sig. You've only recently joined PF and soon realised the tone that some members adopt. I liken it to propaganda of sorts although I can't fathom out any viable motive for their determination to bad mouth Poland at every opportunity. Anyway, keep up the good fight.
Secondly, I feel I have an unpaid job on this board that whenever refugees are discussed it is my duty to raise a sign that says "do you mean refugee, migrant or asylum seeker" ? We should all refuse to accept one description without questioning it's veracity.
Should Poland be forced to accept refugees ? My answer is for Poland to be shown firm evidence that the people in question are genuine refugees (and not migrants) and then a debate can begin. Until that happens then Poland doesn't have a case to answer.
Yup. We all know why that happened though. As it became clear the vast majority of the people coming to Europe the terms refugee and asylum seeker have been interchanged with migrant. Quite frankly I think its offensive to legit refugees to be classed in the same group as the majority which are clearly economic migrants. Despite left leanings media constant stream of pictures of women and families the statistics are loud and clear - the vast majority are young men. Sweden now has a disproportionate level of men to women with some 120 130 males to every 100 females.
However now they're no longer migrants or refugees - they're a burden (Merkel's term) to be shared. After all why should only those countries who accrptrd hordes of Muslims have to deal with Islamic terror? Let's spread it all around so every European country has to deal with islamic terror, not to mention all the rapes, crimes, welfare costs, etc that's the solidarity they're talking about.
They do carry diseases 'unseen in Europe for a long time' as he put it. Ever heard of scabies for example?
For goodness sake don't be such a great lummox. Obviously anybody who is being screened for entry through proper channels should be checked for infectious diseases. I wouldn't be in favour of letting people in who have HIV but I would say that scabies and other conditions which can be easily treated are a different matter. If it comes to that, TB is the second most deadly disease after AIDS and Eastern Europe is positively riddled with it and it's particulary bad in Turkey whom PIS is backing for entry to the EU. Funny how PIS is happy to allow potential hordes of TB ridden Muslims freedom of entry to Poland. Do you see any contradiction there?
What do you mean by 'not sure these conditions are comparable?' Well yes scabiea are less severe than hiv but thats just two of the diseasws migrants bring. A huge chuck of the migrants have scabies which they more often than not catch from living in cramped quarters as they're being trafficked or in the detention centers they wind up in for illegally crossing borders. As far as HIV, its widely known fact that sub saharans suffer disproportionate HIV infection rates - in some countries as high as 20% of the population. A lot of rhr migrants also have TB which puts Europeans at unnecessary risk and strains a health budget meant for citizens - not people who illegally cross borders and fail to obtain the proper paperwork and visas.
Muslim countries blood test people before giving them a visa. Libya tests all the migrants it catches and immediately deports anyone with HIV - of whom they estimate 15% of the people they catch are infected. Thank God they're doing this otherwise if they didn't care at all those people would all be in Europe by now. Europe should do the same if its good enough for places like Libya or Bahrain or kuwait its good enough for us. No need to put our population at unnecessary risk and strain the health budget.
