The best Poland ever?

It's not only about capacity...it's about diversity.
As the spats with Poland and Ukraine showed it's not good for a such a high energy demanding country like Germany to put all their trust in only a few sources. Nord Stream just adds to the sources...as will others still to be build ones.


How?


Well...we are working on alternatives...but for the next few years do you have a better idea? Even if we would still only use the ones over Poland it would still come from Russia....where do you think most of Polands energy comes from???


What compromise?
It was either build or not build.
I remember a proposal to Warsaw to build some branches so that Poland would get also gas from Nord Stream....now guess how the potatoe heads reacted!

From my selfish point of view, I might be tempted to say so. I live a fairly comfortable life,
I can enjoy the freedom and immersion in Polish language and culture, without worrying about
being executed or sent into Siberian exile for it. In other words, I can live my life in full, as a man,
a husband, a father and a Pole. However, there is something that spoils the fun for me. It's the fact
that millions of Poles live beyond poverty line, and about 3 million of my compatriots had to leave
the country since we joined the EU in 2004. It annoys me to no end that out of my highschool
class of 27 students, only 8 are currently in Poland. Why did only 60 thousand Czechs leave their
country since 2004, and in the same period Poland lost 3 million young people? It's worse than WW2
(in WW2 we also lost 3 million ethnic Poles, but they were of all age groups, also old and sick;
the emmigration took young and healthy.)


I don't know, BB. You are German - you tell me: what would happen in Germany, if millions of workers
earned 1200-1400 euro, but the price of fuel was 5 euro/litre, price of butter and sugar would also
be about 5 euro, a kilo of meat would cost 25-30 euro, and renting a one room apartment
in a small city would cost about 700 euro (just for the rent, without water and electricity.)
Now exchange euro for PLN and that's how life is for millions of people in Poland.
I won't even mention the fact that 14% of people are unemployed (many of them without a dole).

What'd Germans do in such situation? Or the French? I'm asking because the patience of Poles never
ceases to amaze me. I wonder where is the limit of resistance of the poorest people to degradation
and humiliation, and where is the limit of blunt satisfaction and self-worship of the current government.

It's been tried. Under such stress Germans elected Adolf Hitler to lead them to the glorious future on the cold, wintery steppes of the Soviet Union.

just looked up what spat means - my dictionary says it means a short unimportant quarrel - after a few grumbles by Mr Kaczyński you decided that you will be better off with Russia as a strategic partner - interesting - and Russia is at least patronising (if you really object to calling Russia a neo-imperialist political entity) to Poland even now (even as Mr Tusk is trying to build good impressions among Polish society by maintaining we have finally achieved good relationships with Russia)


well I am not that knowledgeable but how do you actually build and operate branches of a submarine pipeline??

Erm...you are not seriously comparing today's Poland to Germany in the 1920ies, don't you


Well...there is no alternative than to cherish what you have and to look down to others who are much worse off!
Works like a charm! :)


That's the way! *nods*

It could be so much worse...sometimes people forget about how privileged they are compared to billions of other Earthians...even the poor ones!

most Polish energy comes from coal and Germany also works hard to make it worse for Poland and its coal powered electricity

What would you do without Germany...who would you blame then... :)

Not for me, it doesn't.


You quoted only the first part of the paragraph - the second is equally important.

Anyway - you didn't answer my question. What do you think would happen in Germany?

are you saying we are working against our own coal industry? and our electricity generating? is it that the Poles are so fu**ed up that they wish to impose heavy taxes on their own coal??? -

Not at all. I had an impression I was comparing 1920's Germany with a great majority of 2011 Poland.

You know that Germany at that times suffered famines could only transport the money for a beer in a wheel cart?
That the reparations were crippling any rebuilding?

Now let me see the starving polish children of today...oh and the billions of EU support (you know...money going INTO Poland compared to being taken AWAY from Poland) are surely also only imaginations of my feverish mind.

XV-XVI century Poland was the best, safe, exceedingly wealthy, developing at an astronomic pace, powerfull and with a goverment full to to the brim of wise, brave and smart people.

The one we have now is the secon best thing but its far far from good.

I'm not sure what you mean...Germany hasn't any minimum wage..there are millions of workers living on 1200 -1400 Euros!
And your prices are in big part still cheaper than in Germany....hence the "border tourism". Germans driving over the border to shop.

We march on and pull through nonetheless...what are we supposed to do?

Okay...Germans don't emigrate in masses as Poles do but mainly because it's still a good life to have in Germany and somewhere else the grass is not that much greener! ;)

hmm, really??


well I have seen many different approaches to see if Poland is paying to the EU or receiving from the EU - yes - you might be surprised - Poland is paying loads of cash to Brussels - the question remains if what we factually receive is more or less than what we pay

and to remind you what I have already written here - but I will love to repeat it - according to Mr Po(e)ttering (btw who was Mr Pottering in 2007) in 2007 the 'New Europe' cost each citizen of 'Old Europe' 26 euro - how much do you spend on your gas (I mean gasoline) monthly??

Why do you have such imaginations?

Oh, believe me you would see them! Depending on sources the number of malnourished children
in Poland varies from 30 to 70%! Every third pupil in Poland comes to school without breakfast
(and it's not because he forgot to take it). Use google translate to check this page...

pfpd.org/?page_id=2

...as I said. The patience of people in Poland amazes me, but is it eternal? Is it inexhaustible?
Is the government of dull self-worshipping half-wits, the best that Poland can have - or is the
time for a change coming?


Recently, people from Western Poland were buying out sugar in German shops, because it's CHEAPER
in Germany.


What about the prices I wrote about? Do they pay 5 euro for one litre of fuel etc. etc. ?

Hence my question...what change do you have in mind?

PS: We have Kinderarmut in Germany too...but nobody speaks of revolution.

"5 million Germans immigrated to the United States with a peak in the years between 1881 and 1885"
But i give you this, you have an ability to turn things around for better for yourself quickly.

The change that usually happens when you have millions of people living in poverty
and degradation, humiliated and frustrated, whilst the governing retards are literally
beaming with satisfaction and self-worship.

A man who gets elected to power in such circumstances is usually not a nice guy.

Yeah...sorry I forgot to mention numbers from over 100 years back as the discussion was about today! :(


Bummer that, I didn't know you have it so bad over there. And as I read your own life description it
didn't sound THAT bad...

You know what...that all sounds mightly like whining self-pity. You should really take a good look around with your stable, peaceful country, your growing economy and all.

Take an even wider look and compare rising Poland to the real hellholes of this planet and then maybe you change your priorities.

Instead of dreaming to create chaos aka "change" again work on making it better....it needs time and efforts but nobody else is to blame.

PS: your governing "retards" achieved that Poland is a respected country once again...something their predecessors really worked hard to destroy.

I have found some figure for 2009 - I don't know yet if it a reliable one - but still - it was 12.573.808 tys. zł - i.e 12.5 billion zloty - about 3 billion euro

Would you believe that harnessing the unfettered greed of egotistic individuals will provide the momentum to... and so on and so forth.

Do you think that the poorest people, who very often suffer from hunger and have to worry
every day about survival of their families, come to PolishForums to discuss things with you, BB?
You need to think again, my friend.


With all due respect, BB, but I'd say my look on Poland is a little bit more accurate than yours.

huh? :)

have found next figure - year 2010 - Polish contribution to Brussels aka EU - 17 mld 901 mln 683 tys. zł. - more than 4 billion euro

already in 2008 Polish payment into the EU was bigger than that of Sweden - I don't know however how much we received back

Why should I compare a country in the middle of Europe, which has farming capable of feeding 120 million
people (if it was only run properly), natural resources, and modern educated society, to some "real hellholes"
of this planet? I compare Poland to countries that we should compare her to (i.e. Czech Republic) and the
comparison is not favourable.

Of course...I can only descibe a Poland I can see here from Berlin. And what I see is a respected country with nice renovated towns and an economy which avoided the pitfalls of the last years and is growing contrary to alot of other european quagmires. You have alot going for you!

(Okay, the football still sucks)

Germany is one of the richest and most successfull countries on Earth but we to have poorer people and also Kinderarmut. We try to help them out but no government can take all the responsibilities for the people, that would be socialism and that never works.

So again, what change do you have in mind?

Do you want to hear the pessimistic or the optimistic scenario?

I'm an optimist by nature! :)

the wider look is that as the prices hikes (energy taxes) you are gonna impose on Poland (Germany led EU) will in effect lead to lots of people in Poland (who are currently working and not making much money) not able to earn their living - will it be better than Africa then?