New cross war in Warsaw

so the morally superior are the church goers and the intellectually superior are the new Polish class, such as journalists, non- church goers new better of class, part of young generation who does not feel attached neither to church, not pro- communism sentiments when everybody was equal and so on.

As for professional church bashers, I think those people are not interested in the RCC to have their life dictated. There is no obligation in Poland to be an active member of the church. Some people are not very happy with the way RCC is trying to influence the political life in Poland as of late. Another issue is that Polish RCC is not very progressive and accommodating to the changing needs of its believer, so yah......there will be a lot of people who will not be happy with the attempt to morally control people.

The essential point here is that such kind of freakish opinions might and do exist in most civilized countries. But in countries where religion belongs to the private sphere this is not doing any harm. They are on the extreme-right unsavoury part of society, but neglible.

The thing is that in Poland a significant minority = PIS, seems to think that Poland is the same as "bigoted catholic". That anybody else is Russian-sponsored.

In Poland a former Speaker of the Parliament promotes this kind of cross views. It is all good and well to adore an incompetent bigoted president, I do not think there is any need to make him a saint.

Let's not forget that the beret-wearing babcias, who some on PF so eagerly revile and pour scorn on, lived through the Nazi occupation and the nightmare of Stalinist enslavement. They did without, sacrificed, worked hard to raise decent families and against all odds passed down basic patriotic and religious values without which any nation is merely a rootless mob or faceless collective. Don't they deserve some respect? Aren't they entitled to voice their views? Have the Don & Bron clique and their influential media backers got a monpoly on free expression?

You can't say they all lived at WWII - some are younger, much younger, and I bet the elder ones have much more wisdom and experience - they fought or at least survived war, and I think we're talking of ladies (AND men) aged about 55 - 65 now.

Yep.


It's about tolerance. It goes both ways, you know.


If you are not a member - why do you care? It's always fascinating to me that the most vocal opponents of church policies are not the members. So spare me your fake concern.


So what?


That's what democracy is all about.

doesn't it make sense? lol

I don't point out that the Catholic church is a morally bankrupt institution for money: I do it because people need to stand up to this evil institution.

of course it does, so RCC and its believers will have to stop judging those who are not.


I have Polish friends who share the same concern. I made an observation.


I am not most vocal in that regard. Yet, RCC fanatics should be more accommodation to the rest of RCC members who don't share their view, or do you thing that all of them should be expelled from the church- in that case RCC, will loose a significant number of its members.


this is a public forum, not a Catholic one, therefore all opinions are relevant.


let me rephrase: there are a lot of people, members of RCC who don't follow this boarding on fanatism line.

It's obvious that those who spend Sunday sleeping off and nursing a hangover after a big Saturday night booze-up are morally superior to those who go to Sunday mass.

there is nothing wrong with sleeping in on Sunday, there is nothing wrong with going to Sunday mass... lets just don't go from one extreme to other extreme...

Why bring religious element into this discussion? Ever heard of "vox populi, vox Dei"? IF you’re not religious by all means, take the second part out of the equation but it still leaves you with the first and the most important part that no government should ever ignore, after all that’s what gives them the mandate to govern, that’s what they preach ‘Democracy’, ‘ Will of the people’ right? Besides satisfying their own ego just to show there’s a new sheriff in town and use this as another pretext to attack RCC is despicable in my opinion, it’s not serving anyone here in the long run, just makes a house divided. It’s not about RCC or some religious symbol even though some would like you to believe it is.

BTW one should never underestimate power of the Babcia no matter how old she happens to be, after all she’s the one who instills the values in new generation, you and your wife are simply too busy and preoccupied with your own careers.

And even more obvious that the people who go to mass think that they are morally superior.

The difference is that one group don't want churches or anything else to be closed on sundays but the other group want everything except churches to be closed on sundays and all religious holidays.

If this is a criticism of getting drunk in general as morally corrupt, then I ask you find me a morally pure person in Poland.

If this is a claim that going to Mass makes you morally pure, then please be aware that the RCC does not hold the monopoly on morality.

If this is something to do with Sunday being special, not all of us agree that our morals can change depending on the day of the week.

hit the nail of the head.

How about going to the church with a hangover- that has been done many times before.

I recall some Midnight mass, where one could smell alcohol for miles. Why kick the drinkers out of church, if priests are allowed to drink wine during the mass anyways. That is not fair.

Richfilth is spot on here. The RCC got too wrapped up in morality and they unduly transgressed into self righteousness.

in the past, when i used to go to discos on Saturdays(good old days ;)) i have seen many girls drunk, vulgar, making out with guys in bushes and having sex in cars... the next day, i have seen them on Sunday mass, in a first row, praying and taking communion...

obrzydlistwo...

The problem is many of those church goers go to the closest monopolowy for a bottle of cheap wine just after the mass.
up yours

Don't generalise ... I am a member, and I find it incredible that "your kind" does not seem to accept any criticism whatsoever with regard to the church or religion or what its members do (like these RM-nutballs). Fact of the matter is that there are a lot of things wrong with the RCC and I for one don't accept these RM-fundamentalists as real christians. They are the worst kind.

And Polonious ... by saying people who don't go to mass are worse than those who do, you don't show yourself to be a christian either. I go to church every now and again (not every Sunday) and I certainly don't consider myself better or worse than those who don't.

'My kind' is not blind and well aware of the problems. Show me another 2000 yo institution which doesn't have problems to fix. But allowing outsiders to dictate how to fix them is preposterous.


I doubt that very much, as you are the same guy who said


which BTW I explained to you - and you didn't bother to acknowledge.

As the Catholic church's attempts to solve its problem with paedophile priests have been utterly contemptible, outsiders are clearly needed to fix it.

Harry's on the ball here. But then again Harry, you dont like people interfering with your English government as you said a while back in your little nationalist vomit eh lol

But they won't. No matter how much you yapp in protest, and I like it :)

it's gonna keep rotting from the inside, just like for the last centuries... and it's not gonna end well for anybody, it's gonna be ugly... as i mentioned before, religion is not about God anymore, it's about power and money...

Actually you're behind the times a bit. Most of the moherowe berety were either babes in arms during the war or not yet born, and were little kids during JV Stalin's lifetime.


You like the status quo with endemic child abuse?

How do you propose fixing it? Or maybe you "like it".

You want to tell that the Belgian police who raided a meeting of the country's Catholic bishops? Or to the US court thanks to which the Catholic church has been forced to pay out $2.6 billion?

Time to put your head back in the sand.

Wake up: it's already ugly. And how those outsiders are going to help? By destroying it completely, which was their point to begin with? I admire your naivete.


Keep trying to put words in my mouth; for sure your cheap trick is going to work with me.

who said it's not??

Protesters are not in power and its only means (often) left for them to express themselves.
However government got all the power of the state, what more they are paid to deal with different kinds of issues - if they are incompetent or cannot be bother - blame them !

You overlook the fact that the person who said "Violence is bad but there is no way you can protest against this abnormality without violence." was a member of the government at the time of making that statement. What goes around comes around and given that rightwing nutters were quite happy for the state to use violence when they were in charge (see for example Wierzejski's comments about the police beating people with batons) and now it's time for the bigots to get a taste of their own medicine.

Putting words in your "mouth"?

Didn't you just say: