New cross war in Warsaw

That's the $64,000 question now - have these people gone so far that even Kaczynski can't stop them? He's certainly not helping things - but I wonder - would they listen if he showed up and said "enough"? I mean, they've now gone against the Church - what's next?

the world?

who are the ppl who defends the cross:


wow what a honest declaration! ...we already know that there are too many madmen ;)

kill them all to defend your sanity! or is that a kind of madness in reverse ?

no I actually defend religion... but not in this case

because this case has nothing to do with religion as I have repeatedly pointed out!

I have avoided this issue like the plague, I turn over the radio when they talk about it and flick quickly if there's a newspaper in sight.

But it is late on a Sunday, so I will ask.
So what if they want the cross, why not just leave it be?

because they already took tthe wawel castle

It's in a conservation area, it doesn't have planning permission and additionally isn't located on public property, but rather Presidential property and is located within the so-called security area.

Presidential property? So Lech's former stamping ground then :) Secured by whom? It is the police who tend to patrol public areas ;) ;)

Conservation area? Even better. They can preserve their culture :)

No planning permission? Yet it still hasn't been removed ;)

Technically, it is secured by the security forces - there's at least two members there in army clothes at all times from what I could see. I suspect it's a trivial distinction, but the police are there to arrest people and keep order, whereas the security forces are there to protect the grounds/palace.


I'm mystified as to why the police/security forces don't just allow someone to grab it and go. It's not like the defenders will be able to give chase ;)

I heard that the City Guard were being used, LOL. This from a VERY reliable source.

Handbags can be thrown quite far and you never know what those mohair berety carry inside.

Where'd they take it to? :)


Emmm... So what?
Does any of that actually amount to a hill of beans?

Well, there's the other point - who wants to litter one of the most expensive (if not the most expensive) streets in Poland with a bunch of protesting grannies? ;)

not where but who has been takien into wawel castle

State shoul;d be secular and no crosses are supposed to be in front of presidental palace

Why does the picture of a combine harvester going down said street spring to mind? (in a comical way, of course).
No grannies were hurt in the making of this mental image.


I agree whole heartily that the state should be secular, I believe Poland has achieved this to a greater degree than Ireland has. But old grannies? let them have their cross, no?

It seems to me that these people fought there whole lives and have plenty of fight left in them and will fight about almost anything that they consider important, so why not just let them have their cross, it doesn't do any real harm does it?

I did not read it, but at least we are on the same page.


PIS will survive, but a new face may be in order especially someone who is married with children as the family thing will sway some voters to PIS

Sure thing, put a cross in public place and this is not secular state any more? Well, do you know what are you talking about?

no.
these old grannies are miniority which want to dominate. They are kind of poland I'm ashamed of. Histeric, paranoic, antisemitic...

the article I've posted is really sad - it shows that many of those ppl have real prblems and they just there not to defend the cross, they are just in the desperate to manifastete their problems. read the article if you know polish

I have, there are four people from all walks of life, as for shame, there is nothing to be ashamed of, especially those grannies: they are who they are and they belong to Poland as well.

The problem is that (having been there a few days ago) - these people are actually harmful. I watched one of them harass and insult a young boy no older than 12-13 for the crime of having ridden up to the cross - apparently this was an "insult". When, naturally, he told them that he expected them to respect him - she went crazy and shoved him. Should we really be appeasing this type of person?

The people at the cross are deranged, fringe members of society who believe what they want to believe. The Polish episcopate has united against using the cross as a political symbol - yet these people are calling the church "traitors" among others. They don't respect the Church, they don't respect the law - nothing. And that's without talking about their hysterical views on Smolensk or Jews.

It's now becoming clear that most of Polish society is against the cross staying there. The reasons are numerous, some of them want to defend Poland's constitution, some of them want to defend it against blasphemy, others want to keep it out of politics - either way, the people there are causing great harm not only to themselves, but to the Catholic Church and its followers.


I suspect that if Jarek continues with provoking the protesters, we'll see PiS in all sorts of trouble in the elections later this year. And with that, the knives will be sharpened - will the members of PiS really want to see their election chances ruined? No way. I agree that they will survive - but I wonder just how much longer the Kaczynski "dynasty" has to run.

Having said this - I wish PO would call an election to coincide with the local elections this year - a win for them would see a clear mandate for their reforms and would give them 4 very clear years in which to do so.

Yeah, I went from (just barely) tolerating them to being actively against them after they threatened a group priests and boy scouts and made it clear that they think they have more authority in the church than a mere arch-bishop.

"jeden arcybiskup to nie cały kościół" said one cross-lady dismissing clerical calls for the group to take a pill.

On the other hand, the article in Duży Format mentioned isn't entirely fair. I understand, as a former sort of journalist, that the journalists are going to publicise the most 'interesting' and not necessarily the most typical stories of the cross people. But, once any movement gets big enough you're going to find some fringe elements piggy-backing on to the movement to push their own agenda. The fact that you have some marginal and/or crazy people there is irrelevant to the larger point of the crossers. I still think they're wrong, but I try to be fair about it, they're wrong because they're wrong, not because they were attracting some weirdos.

I think the point that many are missing here is that it was a NATIONAL tragedy. As such, it is for the people to decide as a collective whole. It will linger for quite some time longer until a referendum comes along. Then NOBODY can contest it as it will be the will of the people. What, you think EU citizens are gonna get referendums for a federal states of Europe and the like? Forget it! If, by some miracle they do, it will go to a second, third, fourth and fifth vote or until it gets pushed through. Face it guys, referendums are now for this kind of thing. Kommie would be making a crucial gesture to the people that he knows what democracy is.

Seanus, you seem to have soft spot for these people but what on earth makes you think they would accept the results of a referendum? Even if the results were 70 % for moving the cross, even if the results were 90% in favor of moving the cross, nothing they've said or done so far indicates they're willing to listen to anyone else. I'm not even sure if they'd pay attention to Kaczynski (who wants to rename the country Lechokrzyżolandia) if he told them to cool it.

They're a small minority who want to force their political will (on how to mourn a national tragedy) on the majority.

Let the government do what it wants on this particular issue and let it join the list of issues that will influence the next election.

I mostly agree with you on the EU referendum process but that's a very separate issue.

Mafketis, for the LAST time, I am discussing the harm and merit of the cross being there. I don't give a jot about those religious freaks or others that are just championing a cause because they are otherwise losers in life. Look at what SeanBM said above. He's got the idea! It's NOT about the people in that space, it's about the cross being there and it doesn't really present an obstacle.

They MUST accept the will of the people. Geez, Poland was one of the champions of democracy years ago. Then the police will have to treat them as fanatics and disperse them.

Don't make out that the state can do nothing here, they very much can. Babcias can do nothing in the face of guys who weigh around 250lbs, wielding batons.

poop poland cross

poopie situation...
and this comes from the older generation... thanks for setting up a good example...
;)

Maybe some old geezer forgot to put on his pampers that morning, and maybe he ate too many Heinz beans, and maybe he farted so hard that it actually tore his pants! Maybe this all just one big misunderstanding! An accident!

xD

Wildrover!!

Still I am surprised by the absence of Rydzyk in the whole cross show.
Where is this guy? On one of his luxury holidays? Drilling yet another geothermical hole in Toruń?

I think the cross loonies are now getting marginalised very fast. Even PIS is not refering to them anymore on a daily basis. I am waiting for them to get transfer into snowmen in December :)

the question is how much this circus costs the taxpayers...?

cross poland

that was him...

do you know who did it ?