2ND MIRACLE OF THE VISTULA: youth mysteriously appear out of nowhere!

I'm telling it to you. It is not a first time you're using 'argument' of hate and prejudice.


Yes, they showed up. This time. All those weekly protesters you are talking are old folk and very few of them.


The thingy about judges in Poland is that they select themselves are beyond any control and accountability. Above the law. That bill was aiming to change it. Not 'independence' of a judge but his/her accountability.

Ironside.... I did actually say independence of judges from politicians...To be honest 'independence' and 'accountability' go hand in hand. You say that judges select themselves in Poland and are beyond any control and accountability...could you just set out how they do this....If this is correct I would say it is commendable that changes need to be made, although I am still at a loss to agree that judges should be appointed by politicians and controlled by the same. Not a great way to promote democracy....As I already mentioned accountability of judges in the UK centres around being monitored by an independent body and use of transparent policies to weed out the poor performing or corrupt judges. With this form of regulation (accountability) it tightens and reduces the possibility of corruption.

Look further into Europe and you will find legal systems where the judges are routinely monitored and regulated by independent bodies...

Little point in doing that. Tell it to the nasty squad, ones who invariably support PiS or any other authoritarian right-wing regime, providing it isn't Islamic.


Perhaps 35 year olds seem young to you. Perhaps large crowds just seem like 'a few'.

not in Poland so far - as was pointed to you, judges (the upper circles mostly) appointed judges - you don't live here and you probably never heard about scandalous rulings defying logic, justice and decency and other scandals among the judiciary including common theft - these people are screened from justice - a judge who steals 2000 PLN worth of pen drives should be dismissed instantly from his profession - it's not the case in Poland

i'm all for the public to be able to elect judges (like in America) - but for now I can settle on the parliament to appoint most people in the National Judiciary Council who appoint the judges

Not necessarily, no. What do you mean by 'steals'? Do you mean that the judge in question took a pack of 20 sealed pen drives and was then caught trying to sell them on Allegro at 100zl each? Or that a judge got into the habit of putting work onto pen drives to take home work to do at the weekends and didn't always remember to take them back to the office on Mondays meaning that over course a year he'd have two more pen drives in the drawer of his desk at home than at the start of a year and thus over the course of ten years he had built up a collection of 2,000zl worth?


That would be an excellent idea in Poland too. Sadly what the regime proposes to introduce is monitoring and regulating by the Party.

Yes, allowing the prosecutor to appoint judges to particular cases is a huge red flag (not the only one, but a very big one).

A person is either in favor of the rule of law or the rule by party leader. I'm in favor of rule of law, most of the supporters of this botched abortion of a reform are in favor of rule by party (leader).

The golden rule: Would you be happy if this law were in effect while a political party you hate is in power?

gumishu.....


Actually I do live here and I am aware of the unfair rulings that you refer to.....apart from finding out why judges have the need to steal and give unfair rulings which is perhaps another discussion, there is a need to clean up this situation. To demonstrate impartiality the government need to look at the possibility of creating an independent commission or use a specialist police unit to investigate wrong doings, corruption and theft. (if this is already in existence then clearly they are not doing their job properly and need to be replaced) I would liaise with other European countries on tried and tested methods of dealing with corruption in the judiciary and share knowledge and resources to set up an effective unit. Until corruption/theft is resolved there will be little public confidence in the judiciary.

I am not sure that I would favour the public electing judges, and would rather see appointments made by, for example a judicial commission, some professionals, some lay members, specialists in law, a general mix.... all appointed through open and fair competition....With statutory powers the duties of the commission would be to select judges solely on merit, and select only those of good character....The National Judicial Council and other departments in the Polish judicial system all serve a useful purpose and may well be using the open and fair competition approach, but perhaps some now need to be revisited and new powers agreed and updated. It is of course almost 30 years since Poland regained its independence and we are of course discussing the most Important aspect of any democratic country....its legal system.

All this would take time but would in my view create a meaningful approach to deal with the problem of corruption etc. I get the Impression that it's a quick fix the PIS are looking for and one which would appear to be biased in favour of political gain and not one which offers a fair, impartial and effective solution.

They'll never do that because, as you may have noticed, they basically don't like many other European countries, particularly those who have a stable enough democracy to have established such tried and tested methods.

Atch....


Then this is a great shame...and will only serve to delay progress needed to improve the economy, stability and reputation of Poland.....I will keep my fingers crossed....

One can only wonder how they would howl if Kaczyński was put on trial where the judge and prosecutor were appointed by an opposition Minister of Justice.

the judge in question was caught with full pockets of pendrives in MediaMarkt or some such supermarket in Wrocław - I don't have time now to google the details

there were other cases of similar common theft in Poland involving judges - such people should go from the profession

and it is not the direst of the problems with the Polish judiciary - the problem is that people cannot reach justice there because rulings and proceedings are often not just, defying logic, ignoring evidence, one-sided, you name it - the judges only recently (during PiS rule) were made to make public their financial and real estate assets - some of the judges are VERY rich and about half of them used a trick not to reveal these data this year

But he need not fear. That squat little toad Timmermans will go to bat for him as well as for the Soviet-era judges who sent Solidarity activists to jail. Never forget, Hairy Bollocks is also rooting for the toga-clad traitors. He'd be rooting for Piotrowicz too if he hadn't joined PiS.

gumishu....


Great.....was he prosecuted for theft.....or at the very least was he dismissed or disciplined.....? If not.....there lies the problem.....

Normal enough. Sounds like a pretext. This silly behaviour by PiS and their oafish and vindictive supporters is precisely why thousands of people in the 19-35 demographic come out on to the streets to say "enough already".

PiS are probably splattering their collective knickers with steaming wet faeces at the thought of those Poles turning out to vote PiS out of office.

More wishful thinking, lower-case? A survey taken at the very height of the noisy, unruly stand-off showed that PiS had gained support, not the opposite.

...and didn't always remember to pay for them when leaving the shop?! You, Hairy, are so full of sh*t you may well blow up any moment now. I'd hate to be within splatter range!

Hairy B*llocks would defend Grzegorz Piotrowski (Popiełuszko's killer) with somthing like "he was only doing his job". He'll defend crooked judges, the scamster PO party and even the devil himself as long as they are anti-PiS. Malevolent Anglo-expats should do us all a favour and refrain from meddling in Poland's affairs and telling Poles how to run their country. You seem to be missing one crucial point: MOST POLES DO NOT WANT TO TURN THEIR COUNTRY INTO A MULTI-CULTI CESSPOOL LIKE THE UK!

I did about three minutes of research and found out that he was suspended for three months which is about as much as they probably could do given

a) there were no criminal charges (AFAICT)

b) it may not have been actionable (he was stopped - "za linią kas" which is not necessarily the same as "poza terenem sklepu" (or whatever the legal term might be). I don't know how Polish law works but in the US they can't charge you with shoplifting unless you actually leave the store with the merchandise.

Interesting example, but not tremendously relevant to the current controversy - as I don't think anything in the proposed "reform" would address this (apart from allowing the prosecutor general to fire judges on a whim... which has a lot more drawbacks than benefits imho)

To be honest that sounds more like a cry for help than anything else: everything of value in MediaMarkt has a security tag on it. What you describe is also not a crime; if you want to go and cram a washing machine in your pocket in a shop, it's not a crime unless you try to leave the store.


Very much so, at best they'll be removed from the trough by being kicked out of the jobs they are entirely unqualified for but get 100,000zl a month for (hopefully the next government solves the problem by selling off the state-owned firms), and the more senior of them will be looking at jail time.


I wonder if we are ever going to see a real 2nd miracle of the Vistula: a mod mysterious appearing out of nowhere and enforcing the rule about not changing a poster's name by 'hilariously' mis-spelling it. What do you think, Vincent, would it be too much of a 2nd miracle of the Vistula for you to give a warning for something that you've been very happy to ban other posters for even asking if they can do?

oh Pollie can say what he likes, whether it is insulting a poster or whining about Jews. You do wonder.

It is more than doubtful that this forum would ever have any influence on Poles or on Poland if only a very, very, very tiny number of 'real' Poles ever bother to read it. The forum is of interest for ex-pats, people of Polish descent or Polish ex-pats abroad (living happily in Norway, for example).


But you can tell the same about Harold, my dear Roz. Have you forgotten the time when Harold regularly called 'liar' any poster with whom he disagreed, if they were Polish or Pol-Ams? How does that really differ from calling him 'Hairy Bollocks' regularly by one particular poster now?

Can you quote the passage of the draft that specifies this?

Pot kettle black! What about reacting to HB's repeated ad hom trolling by hilariously throwing his self-concocted Podunk Polish Pig Farmers Journal in the face of another poster and accusing him of being a commie stooge when he himself sides with all the PRL-era bigshots. And Pislamic State is not exactly contributing to civil forum discourse, is it? PF would definitely gain a new lease of life without HB's dubious, always malevolent and mean-sprited input.

In theory it would, as any judge could be removed at any time for any reason. But it would only solve the problem in the same way that a nuclear bomb can be used to stop toothache.


Yes, I fear that only a 2nd miracle on the Vistula will ever result in the mods holding him to the same standard that they hold others to. Of course, I'd be happy to be proven wrong about that.


One of those was a statement of fact (and your claim that I only used it to describe Polish or Pol-Am posters is itself an example of why you found it so often being used to describe you), while the other is supposedly strictly forbidden here and to result in warnings or bans. Indeed, sometimes even asking if one can do it draws a ban.

So can HB to mention only Podunk Polish Pig Farmers Journal. If that isn't ad hom trolling (a term HB had learnt about 2 years ago and suffering from the obsessive-compulsive syndrome has ridden it to death) what is? What is he said you were the president of the National Prostitutes Association (which I presume you're not). Would that be OK with you?

well the only person to have said that is you. What fresh shite are you babbling? You are sick.

Steady on there now, just a minute Polly. The National Prostitutes Association of Poland is a highly respected organisation. I thought that role was reserved for senior Party members. I'm sure some of them have been awarded The Order of the Whorehouse with merit, haven't they??

he did try to leave the store with the pendrives otherwise it wouldn't get reported - wprost.pl/kraj/10041967/Sedzia-oskarzony-o-kradziez-pendriveow-zostal-zawieszony.html

So the situation was not as you described it. And he was suspended pending further inquiries as a result and is still suspended (wroclaw.sa.gov.pl/pl/dokumenty/wydzial_karny), meaning that it cannot be held up as an example of judges being allowed to get away with criminal acts. Better luck next time.

suspension means he still takes his salary afaik

Has he been convicted yet by way of a final and unappealable sentence? If not, he's still an innocent man. Why would you think innocent people should be punished?