Lithuanian ambassador 'Poles not loyal citizens'

Interesting.

These things generally come down to HOW people go about these things and not so much the issue itself. Provocative comments from either side are not helpful.

Although I think Poles should definitely learn the Lithuanian language in Lithuania, I think its wrong for Lithuania to shut down Polish language schools.

I could not see anybody in the US daring to shut down Spanish, German, Italian or Polish language schools in the US.

Not loyal to the authorities? What, because they use their democratic rights to challenge existing practices? It seems like some fascistic gits have started to rule the roost there. I didn't sense any animosity when I was with many Poles in Lithuania. The Catholic connection seems to bind the 2 people as there is much common heritage as we know.

They're not, though. That's the Polish interpretation of it - just like how the Lithuanian minority in Poland is also persecuted. Perhaps you might want to ask why Lithuanian parents cannot name their children with some Lithuanian names, particularly girls?

Or perhaps you might want to consider the textbook issue. Vilnius funds Polish language textbooks for children, Warsaw doesn't. Therefore, Lithuanian children in Poland are forced to learn from Polish books, while Polish children in Lithuania enjoy books in their own tounge. Hardly fair.


Actually, MW, that's one of the more enlightened things you've said on here. Both sides are equally guilty of antagonising the other - matters not helped by extremist political leaders on both sides stirring things up for political gain.


There was no specific targeting of Poles - it was simply that the Poles, unlike the other minorities, have been far more vocal. It's hardly a secret that some elements (especially within the political leadership) seek to break up the Lithuanian state for their own purposes.


They weren't shut down - the funding was simply removed if they didn't meet certain numbers. The Polish minority is perfectly free to open their own schools with their own money - or they can attend normal Lithuanian schools. Or, of course, they can attend Polish schools elsewhere.

For what it's worth, and someone like you should appreciate this - the media on both sides has been incredibly guilty of spinning things to be far worse than it is. To be honest - Poland comes out worse in all this, because Europe has been looking at Poland as a regional leader - not the type to get involved in petty squabbles like this. It's believed, though, that Sikorski has some sort of personal grudge against elements of the Lithuanian leadership - hence why the fuss in Poland. Strangely, Tusk gets on fine with his counterpart, as does Komorowski.

Where did you read it? The referenced article don't say it at all...
Poles in Lithuania DO speak Lithuanian. They learn it at school and use every day.
They use Polish only among themselves, and what they want is only allowing to write they names with ś, ć, ą, ę etc. which Lithuanian law currently forbids.

Cinek

True they do speak Lithuanian as well, Polish at home. The Lithuanians would like them to assimilate completely forget their Polish roots and ONLY speak Lithuanian. That's the issue at hand.

Currently, Polish law also forbids the use of Lithuanian diatrical marks - so I'm not sure what the issue is. Polish law also prohibits the registration of baby names not ending in 'a' for females - despite Lithuanian names (such as Roze) allowing this. Polish law also doesn't allow "exotic" variations of names - and gives registars power to decide. From what I know - there's several cases where registars have refused to register Lithuanian versions of names in Poland due to a Polish spelling existing.


That's not true - that's just the Polish media being sensationalist again. If it was true, why isn't the Belarusian and (especially) the Russian minority not saying anything?

Don't believe everything you read in the Polish and Lithuanian Press - usually, it's nonsense.

What's more interesting is that at least one former Polish ambassador to Lithuania has criticised the Poles living there.

Well that's what I thought. I know there are Poles who speak Lithuanian in Lithuania.

What percentage of the Poles in Lithuania do you think speak Lithuanian?

Gruni, you obviously misread me. I said:


Those kids are born Lithuanians, not Poles. They might have Polish heritage, but their Fatherland is Lithuania. This is where their loyalty is - point. Parents are free to teach kids whatever they do about their Polish culture, but not to the point of undermining their kids' patriotism towards Lithuania. All the BS some Poles raise in regards of last names written Polish way or signs in international Polish language is too much and doesn't bring good to the Polish-heritage kids in Lithuania. I always praise those who upkeep their roots, but one shouldn't cross the line.

Penn, honestly Lithuanians are "European Russians"... just like Dope. the Communist regime wiped off the face of the earth anyone who calmed to be Polish in the "Litwo! Ojczyzno moja" land... Didn't you know about it? They got cleaned squeaky clean. They either got shipped to the Ziemi Odzyskanej or Siberia or just managed to escaped elsewhere (or they were simply shot in the head facing the wall, sorry but that happened too a lot). "The Communist" were very rootless about it and they had plenty of time to do it. People who live there now are just a distant, 200 years old, echo of what was once there, well sort of... Anyway, don't take my word for it, go see it for yourself.

Of course.
I mean Lithuanians teach them Polish history.
If the Lithuanians found out their history was really Polish history by a few Poles there there might be some issues.

well. the land was Polish for centuries, they grabbed it, so what they expect?Poles are not immigrants there, Lithuanians are

so. according to You all Ukr of what is now West Ukr during the interwar perios should have assimilated and forget they are Ukr?


You have no idea what it ia about, do You?

While the Polish government is quick to condemn Lithuanian authorities it should also be pointed out that Poland has a history of not honoring bi-lateral agreements on minority education. Specifically it has historically underfunded (or just not gotten around to opening) Lithuanian language schools for the Lithuanian minority in Poland.

And as pointed out, Lithuanians in Poland can't use specifically certain names in dealing with the Polish government. How is this different from what the Lithuanian government is doing?

I'm all for Poles in Lithuania being able to use Polish and I think it's hypocritical for Poland to complain about conditions there when it hasn't lived up to its word either.

Poland adheres to Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities and bilateral agreements, Lithuania doesnt.

sorry but you are misguided on the issue - sizeable Polish minority remained in the countryside in Wilno vicinity after the WWII - and it was a conscious decision on the side of the USSR

The vast majority.

About the only ones who won't speak Lithuanian are the dodgy far right groups - of which we should pay no attention.


Reading more and more into this, it seems that Sikorski has some sort of very serious personal grudge with Lithuania. There's just no logic to this otherwise - although it seems that Poland is doing her age old thing of bullying weaker neighbours.

It's funny how the Polish media has almost completely ignored the problems that the Lithuanian minority has in Poland, though.

delphiadomine
what problems do You see that Lithuanian minority doesnt?You probably know better about the topic than they do.
in Poland You dont have tv programs in which the blilngual streets names are being torn off, or the songs with the message death to Lithuanians, or marches with the same message, in Poland Poles dont spray Lithuanian embassy

Not being able to use certain Lithuanian names. Which is the exact mirror of what Poles in Lithuania are whining about.
Not being able to use Lithuanian language text books in Lithuanian language schools in Poland. Poles in Lithuania can not, however, whine about that.

Common sense points.


'Dodgy far right groups'?

From watching the RT video, I saw a Polish shop keeper and a Polish rights advocate..Neither appeared 'dodgy' in any way, nor were they extremists by any stretch.

Just a request for some Polish language street signs and Polish language signs in shops frequented by Poles...I see no movement for an 'autonomous Polish entity' in Lithuania.

Some good comments by posters about historic Lithuanian community now being centered in Belarus.

I would advice you to stop repeating the same erroneous tune over and over again and check some simple facts. I already posted some stories about Puńsk (Punskas) and their educational facilities at several levels. The implication was that the kids learned from the Lithuanian-language books, and they were taught by Lithuanian teachers in their own Lithuanian language.

In some previous posts you did not deny it, but you only whined about the fact the the textbooks were pre-approved by Polish authorities, while the Lithuanian authorities just paid for Polish textbooks published by Poles. Now you changed your tune and say - <<Lithuanian children in Poland are forced to learn from Polish books>>.

All you are doing is repeating certain propaganda from certain Lithuanian circles, similar to this:


baltictimes.com/news/articles/28383/

Do not tell me that you really believe all that bullshit, do you?

Now read this - and I expect a profuse "thank you" from you for the time I had to spend on this issue to correct your errors.

Item number 1
A significant role for the small town, which is Puńsk, plays Publishing House "Ausra". It prepares and publishes the Lithuanian school textbooks for the needs of local educational institutions, and also publishes other books in both Lithuanian and Polish. In accordance to its technical and financial means it supports tourism and cultural activities through publishing interesting brochures, folders, postcards, advertising, etc., and posting information on web servers.

The Puńsk high rank cultural position is due to existence of several Lithuanian magazines, "Saltinis" (journal of the Association of St. Casimir in Sejny), "Ausra" (biweekly of Polish Lithuanians), "Ausrele" (monthly magazine for children), "Suvalkietis" (quarterly of Lithuanians from Suwalki region). A coffee shop at the Ausra Publishing House sells not only local publications, but also books and recorded music from Lithuania.

Books published by the Publishing House "Aušra" in the years 1992 - 2003:
Check it out - about 60 positions, Lithuanian titles, Polish summaries.

punskas.pl/leidykla/ksiazki.html


Publishing House "Aušra" now has the following manuals, books, teaching aids and programs for primary and junior high:
The detailed list is here:

punskas.pl/leidykla/podreczniki.html

Here at the highlights of their offer:

Grade 1-3: Integrated teaching
All written by the same Lithuanian authors G. Karaneckienė and I. Berneckaitė . Includes textbooks, exercise books and teaching instructions for reading, writing and mathematics, in both languages.

Grade 4-6. Lithuanian only
N. Grigutienė Motina. Kalba. Tėvynė. Podręcznik języka litewskiego. Lithuanian Language Textbook. (one for each grade, same author)
Instructional Guide to Teaching Lithuanian, for grades 5 and 6, including CDs and big didactic boards

Gymnasium - Junior High School
Textbooks for grades 1-3, plus exercise books and didactic materials for teachers
Polish-Lithuanian terminological dictionaries:
+ mathematics
+ geography
+ art
+ physics
+ chemistry
+ biology
+ programming

Liceum - High School. All Lithuanian
+ Culture, rhetorics, communication
+ Development of language and history. Written and spoken language. Dialects
+ Lithuanian language. Style. Style measures. Style. Language stylization. Style of interaction. Text styles and genres. Modern developments in the Lithuanian language.

All of these books are provided to schools free of charge upon presentation of a written order on selected items certified by the Board of Education in Suwalki.

(...)
School and Pedagogic Publishing House
through Publishing House "Ausra"
Orders for Big-boards must also be confirmed by the Board of Trustees

Information
Editors of Books and Textbooks
Tel: (087) 5161410

Publishing House "Aušra" Sp. o.o. Mickiewicza 23, 16-515 Punsk
cond. Romuald Witkowski, Deputy Director. Sygit Birgiel editor

tel: 87 5161410 87 5161049; 87 5 161517
Fax: 87 5161049, 87 5161812
REGON 790127214
NIP PL 844-000-82-28
Bank PKO SA O / Suwalki No. 91124018481787000020757256

Item number 2
This offer is a bit outdated. The list of textbooks as recent as 2010 is shown at the bottom of this page: kjoib.uw.edu.pl/publikacje_nijola_birgiel.pdf

Item number 3
Ministry of Interior and Administration, Minutes of the August meeting of Committee on Education of National Minorities
Sejny, 2 March 2005

The minutes deal with the following subjects:

1. School network and funding of education of the Lithuanian minority in Poland
2. Premises for the high school in Punsk and primary and secondary in Sejny
3. Implementation of publishing plans and curricula and publishing projects for 2005
4. Tests and examinations in the Lithuanian language

I'll just translate one little fragment:
In the field of publishing - Ministry of Education and Science continued fruitful cooperation with the publishing house "Aušra" in Puńsk. In 2004, MENS spent 374 200 PLN on Lithuanian textbooks. They planned to spend 402, 650 PLN in 2005.

Again, there must be some current data available for 2010, for example. But I am not writing a dissertation I am just pointing out the obvious flaws in your statements about lack of Lithuanian textbooks in Poland.

Item number 4
The list of textbooks and manuals approved for school use, intended for general education for national minorities and ethnic groups and communities using the regional language, taking into account the core curriculum specified in the Minister of National Education of 23 December 2008 on the core curriculum of preschool education and training general in particular types of schools

(Journal of Laws of 2009 No. 4, pos. 17))

Lithuanian: altogether 7 series of textbooks, approved by MEN, published by Ausra
(as specified under item number 1)

reformaprogramowa.men.gov.pl/nowepodreczniki/wykaz_dopuszczone_lista2.php

In USA, you call customer service for any corporation or government org and you get Spanish speaking options or messages in Spanish many times before you get English options...Now, this is an example of taking things to an extreme.

Russian propaganda

Interesting. When I click that link it says "Wykaz podręczników dopuszczonych do użytku szkolnego do nowej podstawy programowej przeznaczonych do kształcenia ogólnego dla wybranej mniejszości narodowej, etnicznej i społeczności posługującej się językiem regionalnym,

typu szkoły i rodzaju zajęć edukacyjnych.
Brak danych do wyświetlenia."

Which part of "Brak danych do wyświetlenia" am I failing to understand?

[edit] Got you, the link is actually: men.gov.pl/podreczniki/

But I still must be misunderstanding something: the books (three for primary school, two for middle school and one each for lyceum and high school) are all for lessons about the Lithuanian language. Nothing appears to have been approved for any other subject.

Clearly I must have something wrong: it appears that your own link proves the statement "Lithuanian pupils in Poland are forced to be translators starting from the age of seven: they study from Polish language textbooks because the Polish state does not print textbooks in Lithuanian." because, with the exception of books about learning Lithuanian, no books are approved.

Why would you provide a link which completely proves the point of your opponent?

Sorry try this: (I missed this tail: "?file=4&file2=2")


Not really, if you understand Polish take a look punskas.pl/leidykla/podreczniki.html (already posted). For the lowest grade (1-3) they clearly talk about languages + mathematics, as in:

"Matematikos pratybų sąsiuvinis II kl., 1 dalis. Zeszyt ćwiczeń do matematyki do nauczania zintegrowanego w kl. II, cz. 1.

For the high school, I can see entries specifically Lithuanian, such as:
R. Koženiauskienė, D. Mikulėnienė, Lietuvių kalba. Kalbos raida ir istorija. Rašytinė ir sakytinė kalba. Tarmės ir tarmėtyra

Which Google translates to: R. Koženiauskienė, D. Mikulėnienė of the Lithuanian language. The development of language and history. Written and spoken language. Dialects and "tarmėtyra". I do not know whether this is a language book or a combination of language-history curriculum.

We might discuss whether physics is actually taught from Polish books, with the help of Polish-Lithuanian dictionary. But I know that it is definitely taught in Lithuanian.

Should Polish MEN do more? I guess so, yes. But saying that there are no Lithuanian textbooks in their Lithuanian-only schools (at some level) is plain wrong.

I also know that both countries have been working hard on common books for geography and history. Work in progress..

So text books do exist, that we agree on.


Well, they could start by ceasing to refuse to approve the Lithuanian language text books which clearly exist and are available free of charge.


The problem is that the approved Lithuanian textbooks are for no subject other than Lithuanian language, so Lithuanian pupils in Poland are forced to be translators starting from the age of seven because they study all subjects other than Lithuanian from Polish language textbooks because the Polish state does not approve textbooks in Lithuanian.

Is this site still hacked? Every so often I am being redirected to a sink and this is why I am late with my response here.

Harry, your foregoing conclusions are premature here. I hate to repeat myself: the kids in grades 1-3, of this particular school in Puńsk, are taught both languages + mathematics in both languages. There are classes with Polish instructional language, and other parallel classes with Lithuanian instructional language. So no, they do not have to do any translation at the age of 7.

Let us check the higher grades. The best way to decide on this issue is to go to the source:
The list of textbooks for grade VI of the Darius and Girenas Primary School with the Polish and Lithuanian instructional languages, in the school year 2011/2012: gimpunsk.com/word/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Wykaz_do_klasy_VI-SP.pdf

1. Polish language - Polish textbook
2. History - Polish textbook
3. English - English textbook
4. Mathematics - Polish textbook
5. Religion - Polish and Lithuanian textbooks
5. Nature - Polish textbook
6. Art - Polish and Lithuanian textbooks
7. Computers - Polish textbook
9. Lithuanian - Lithuanian textbook
10. Lithuanian History - Lithuanian textbook

But there is a Lithuanian only high school in the same village of Puńsk, "Punskas Kovo 11 Lithuanian Secondary School", (Kovo 11 = March 11, the Day of Independence of Lithuanian Republic) where - I presume - all textbooks are Lithuanian only.

zsopunsk.internetdsl.pl/new/en/index.html

An interesting claim to make, given that the source you have provided shows that there are no text books approved by MEN for use in Polish schools which are in Lithuanian and for any subject other than Lithuanian language.

Again, do you read posts via some kind of filter? In the last post I listed Lithuanian textbooks, in bold: Religion, Art, History of Lithuania - other than Lithuanian language. How come you did not see it? I also stressed that the first graders are taught mathematics in Lithuanian from Lithuanian books, approved by MEN. And yet, you continue with your "other than Lithuanian lang".

As for the Lithuanian-only High School - let me see, I may dig out something.

Sadly, the MEN's own website (reformaprogramowa.men.gov.pl/nowepodreczniki/dopuszczone_lista2.php) shows that that is not the case.

In 1950s, Lithuanians tried to stop Poles from leaving for Poland.

Today, they have no right to complain about Polish disloyalty.

Further, Lithuanian ideology declared that many of the individuals who declared themselves as Polish were in fact "polonized Lithuanians". Again, the rural population was denied the right to leave Lithuania due to their lack of official pre-war documentation of Polish citizenship.[19][20] Contrary to an agreement with Poland, many individuals were threatened with the repayment of debts or with arrests if they chose repatriation. In the end, only about 50% of the registered 400,000 people were deported.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_population_transfers_%281944%E2%80 %931946%29

This is because you do not want to see the obvious. Let me take it slowly, from the MEN site: "Kształcenie integrowane w języku litewskim" = "Integrated Education in the Lithuanian language". Apparently "integrated" means "reading + writing + mathematics". So yes, everything in one - and oh, no! - status horribilis - in Lithuanian. Kids do not study physics in grade one. Reading, writing, mathematics - other than playing and singing.

How do I know that? Because I went to Ausra site, which lists many more details - approved by MEN and translated few things from both Lithuanian and Polish. For example, there is a position:

I. Berneckaitė "Matematikos pratybų sąsiuvinis II kl., 2 dalis.
which translates to:
I. Berneckaitė "Mathematics exercise book in grade II. Part 2.
and the Polish part of this entry says:
"Zeszyt ćwiczeń do matematyki do nauczania zintegrowanego w kl. II, cz. 2. Nr zalecenia 196/03."
which translates to:
Mathematics exercise book for integrated teaching, grade II, Part 2. Recommendation No. 196/03.

Yes recommendation # 196/03. Approved by MEN.

And actually, you can get the same detailed list updated from another MEN page, here: konferencje.men.gov.pl/ksztalcenie-ogolne/podreczniki/189 - altogether 23 positions for Lithuanian language textbooks.

Yes, they are terribly unorganized

They list many more positions, other than those basic 23. A big stress is put on geography and nature (biology), with special twist on the local region Puńsk-Suwałki.

Now they go there by grades:
Grade 4-6:
Geography and Nature in Lithuanian language: Budzejko W., Wojciechowski O. - Geografija. Pagrindinei. Mokyklai. Geografia Litwy i regiony Puńsko-Sejneńskiego. Podręcznik do nauczania przyrody i geografii w szkole podstawowej. WSiP S. A.. (328/00).

Gymnasium - Junior High School:
Mathematics, biology, chemistry, physics - dictionaries:

Balytaite M. - Słowniczek polsko-litewski terminów matematycznych dla gimnazjum. AUŠRA Sp. z.o.o.. (323/01).
Misiukoniené M. - Polsko-litewski słowniczek terminów biologicznych dla gimnazjum. AUŠRA Sp. z.o.o.. (152/05).
Bliudžius J. - Lenku-lietuviu kalbu chemijos terminu. Žodynelis. Gimnazijai. Polsko-litewski słowniczek terminów chemicznych dla gimnazjum. AUŠRA Sp. z.o.o.. (389/03).
Pykiené J. - Lenku-lietuviu kalbu fizikos terminu zodynelis gimnazijai. AUŠRA Sp. z.o.o.. (420/02).
Geography - textbook + dictionary:
Budzeiko W., Wojciechowski O. - Geografija. Gimnazijai. Geografia Litwy i regiony Puńsko-Sejneńskiego. Podręcznik do nauczania przyrody i geografii w gimnazjum. WSiP S. A.. (329/00).

Budzeiko V. - Słowniczek polsko-litewski terminów geograficznych dla gimnazjum. AUŠRA Sp. z.o.o.. (326/01).

Anything below is all about various aspects of Lithuanian language: Orthography, punctuation, culture, rhetoric, communication, history of language and development, spoken and written languages, dialects.