Polish Independence Day March in Warsaw. Is it going to be the biggest march yet?

Not just English, but in general yes, soft power is based partly on cultural products that are known outside the country of origin - and Germany doesn't have any at present. American over presence is partly to blame but not entirely.

Name a modern German writer as well known as Houllebecq (whose new book won't be available in English for several months) or Ferrante, a modern composer known at all. There is Tom Tykwer (no Herzog, Wenders or Fassbinder but at least competent and fairly well known)

The only German modern author I can think of that people outside of Germany are likely to have heard of is Thilo Sarrazin (and IINM his most famous book has yet to be translated into English)

For the record I have some (mostly passive now) ability in German, I can read genre literature and the popular press without being too reliant on a dictionary and can understand a fair amount of spoken German (as long as its not too dialecty) I'd love for there to be interesting famous German movies and books but... there aren't.


Wonderful! But... none of that translates into international soft power (hasn't anyone here heard of hard power and soft power?)

for reference:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power

I'm not downtalking it. That suits me well and that's how I would see the future of the European cooperation. Cause somehow I don't see us sharing the similar worldview any time soon.

Poland doesn't need any "cultural enrichment" not from Germany nor middle east since Polish culture is strong and self-sustainable. What we need in Poland is money, investments for further development of Polish infrastructure and economy. As I see it, the modern Western Europe has nothing of value to offer Poland but money. Western EU is a slowly decaying society that is only consuming and digesting what the previous generations of Europeans has produced...


That could be but they are anonymous in Poland, especially the former one since Richer is more or less known to those interested in art. I think the only German school of art that I like and is Bauhaus. It was banned by nazis and then fully developed in the US under Josef Albers and Laszlo Moholy Nagy.

Honestly Mafketis, are seriously arguing here that Germany - a notable soft power according to political scientists- has little to no soft power? I understand that your bias might influence you in a way that you either do not notice them, or forget to listen them here, but this is really ridiculous (e.g. why you only thought of Sarrazin).

google.com/amp/s/www.thelocal.de/20131121/germany-number-one-for-soft-power/amp

Considering how many books are yearly translated from German into English, that seems even less true. Yeah there is no modern German equivalent to "Harry Potter", but quite a lot of German literature has been internationally succesful.

It is true that Germany has been somewhat lacking in the television until recently, because the producers thought too conservatively and wanted to keep it safe. The competition (and collaboration with Netflix and Amazon Prime) has changed that and now the producers are investing more and are trying to break into foreign markets. Despite its' controversial nature, "Our mothers our fathers" was very succesful. "Germany 1983" was recently cited by a German producer as a turning point, because it made them really appreciate the opportunities opened by the great international reception.


Yes yes, the decadent West, a trope so old it gets boring. I find it generally amusing how people keep downtalking the most prosperous, most peaceful and most democratically mature area of the world.

We can guide Poland towards becoming a peaceful, fully mature democratic society. Poland has still some way to go before it reaches the standards of Western Europe in this regard.

Ask Merkel and her refugee relocation program. That should have been easy for a country will real soft power because people would trust it. The problem is that Germany's soft power tends to be located in institutions and not populations.

But do Poles want this, or merely do you think you're acting as Polish people's savior consistent with the 'baizou' mindset? Far as I can tell most Poles just want to make more money. But turning Poland into some multi kulti pro homo society... Not interested....

@mafketis


The problem in this case was neither Merkel and Germany or the lack of trust, but the willingness of some politicians to stoke resentments and exploit the issue for their own short-term advantages. Trust and soft power can not really help you against a campaign driven by irrational fear and hate.

Apropos several remarks here concerning the German literature market, both in and outside the FRG, not to mention foreign aka US and British authors long-since translated into German (while also read by serious students of English in the original), German literature has indeed undergone a serious Renaissance over the past several years, especially since the death of Guenter Grass.

I think the "problem" with German literature for many generations, even since the past two centuries, has been it's perceived lack of the accepted difference in the Anglo-Saxon world which we've always taken for granted between so-called high-brow vs. low-brow literature.

There never was a true German equivalent of Charles Dickens or Thackeray, the latter of which were read by both the elite as well as the educated masses.

In German literature, not until the mid-to late 20th century, there was little "popular" literature, such writing usually looked down upon as beneath the dignity of

any university graduate:-) Heinz Konsalik, enormously successful financially and perhaps the only German author until the late '80's on the level of readable accessibility for the "average" German reader to stack up with a Mickey Spillane or similar light reading in the US, for example, was never taken seriously by German academics, that elite, out-of-touch class once referred to as the "Mandarins".

Well there was the Der Sturmer...

Germany has a great deal of soft power in Central Europe - it is the biggest investor and trade partner in almost all the former Commie countries. Germany dominates several fields of day to day consciousness (e.g. cars VW, Opel and the luxury brands are the strongest in this region) or retail (Lidl, Deichmann, Rossmann, DM all easily the biggest in this region). Bayern and German soccer players are far better known here than any NBA stars and the music here has lots of German influence whether its high brow or techno / German dance music. On top of that most air connections from Central Europe involve going through Frankfurt or Munich at some point.

When you think about it maybe US soft power is in decline ? Apart from e.g. Facebook, Google then in what sectors is the US really dominant in Polish or Czech or Hungarian life ?

It also makes no sense to say Poland only wants money that is generated by the taxpayers of these supposedly decaying societies. They are obviously not going to give that money away free to a bunch of small town Soltys and halfbrained law students that make up the governing class of PiS. The idea of EU funds is to build infrastructure that will support new markets and stop nations from fighting each other.

Germany has money, that's it. Otherwise it's the cultural Siberia of Europe especially now that the government seems so keen on establishing a multi kulti post German society. Merkel doesn't even want Germany to have borders thus no it'd cease to be Germany.

While walking Polish malls, judging by the store names and the ads, it's almost impossible to tell if you are in Poland or the US. And everybody under 30 speaks English. So much so that I dropped asking if they do. On top of that, it was the American version in spite of the fact that it's the British English that is taught in Polish schools. Probably because of the American TV and movies. And the fact the American English is more natural.

In those three countries you mentioned, it is impossible for the people there not remember who the good guys with a very big stick are, and that it's the US and no one else. And that Germany and Russia have been domesticated and contained by the good guys.

Not every english fart is culture just because the whole world can smell it....

There is an old saying: "Soft power comes from hard cash!"

I would think about that one for a minute before I put a ranking on countries on the numbers of their english singing music bands!

PS: And your total ignorance about anything outside of the Anglo-Sphere is contrary to your impression nothing to be proud of.

I think everyone understands the big stick but this is about soft power.

I doubt you were in a Polish shopping mall but if you were then tell us which American stores were there ? Of the Top 100 retailers in Poland I think only 4 are American - all in fast food mcd, kfc, Starbucks and Pizza Hut. Even in that segment the most popular food is now is doner kebab which is basically a German concept.

Sometimes, I doubt it, too, and wonder if it was just a dream. Then, I look at the pics...
I will post four more when that timer times out.

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Don't bother looking for them on the net. I took those myself.

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Abit empty, aren't they?

Last two. That gray guy is me.

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They let me in, so it wasn't totally empty. Plus, most were at work at that time.

You're joking right? Germans teaching Poles, or any other Europeans for that matter, about democracy and upkeeping peace. You're so full of yourself that it's just simply amusing.


See, that's exactly what soft power is not. Soft power is when societies absorb ideas without being forced to do so.

Germany provides certain goods and invest in certain industries but that doesn't have nothing to do with "soft-power". When it comes to German culture it has minimal impact on thinking of a regular Poles and also a Polish elites. And when it comes to German politics it even has a negative impact.

Examples? When Germany tried to force Poland to take refugees, Poles swiftly voted for germano-sceptic PiS and gave it a majority in parliament. Germany has never had any soft power. They only have a baseball bat wrapped in a bubble wrap so it seems soft at first glance...

And still...you want Poland to leave because of German dominance.....the Brexiters want Britain to leave because of german dominance.

The famous "They lost the war but won the peace" - spiel, remember?

And how does Germany all that dominating? Without an army to speak of? Caged inside a union?

Get real man. What you Spike connects with Mafketis is a total resentment against Germany. Resentment against it's power...it's SOFT POWER!

Good one. I will remember it.
Your point about what soft power is perfect. Every club where the young congregate anywhere on earth voluntarily plays the American stuff. Or the British and they sound American, too. I challenge anyone to tell me where, outside of Germany, a club plays German songs in German.

How many American movies are shown in Poland and how many are from Germany?
Culture is what people like and consume when having a free choice, not what high brow snobs approve as "culture".

And you can tell me which cars are the first choice by wealthy Americans, or kitchen appliances?

Why does everybody know and values a "Made in Germany" and not a "Made in Britain", Heh:)

Why does this little country smack in the center of Europe sells as much and sometimes more than giant China?

Soft power comes from hard cash....and Germany has more of that than most!

You want the cake and eat it....you hate Germany so much that you try to downtalk it at every turn....how weak it is...without any influence...but just another post away you fantasize about an overbearing Germany....with its dirty fingers everywhere...manipulating....dominating...

You have do decide what it truly is one day...it would make your posts so much more realistic!

PS: Most of the post was not directed at you Rich but at Spike :)

Soft power is also founded in your name...what people associate with you...

And contrary to the Spikes and Mafketis of this forum, Germany has an excellent international reputation:


edition.cnn.com/2017/11/17/world/nation-brand-ranking-trnd/index.html

That was a bad choice of subject to put on the table.
German cars have a snob appeal and only while the original warranty is in effect. VW and MB are at the bottom of the reliability charts. As a consolation, you are not alone. The competition for the least reliable and the most expensive cars to keep running is between you and the Brits with their Jaguars and Rovers.

There are forums here where the MB owners swear never again to own them. Not so with Lexus - cars the smart ones like me buy to avoid having the local service on speed dial.

No, it is perfect!

Tell me again how much you earn from every american movie shown in the theaters around the globe? Just put a number in...

On the other hand Germany got rich on its products being sold and continues to do so...

So, be happy about the american singer and the american movie and bask in your global cultural soft power whereas Germany will hopefully continue it's other traditions and count the Euros...they are so much more worth!


Absolutely! People are willing to pay alot more just for a product with "Made in Germany" on it. The country of origin / the name of the producer as a main selling argument... You can't get any more soft power than that!!!

You are conflating corporate bottom line with culture. Different things. Different impact on ordinary people. Songs and movies are consumed by millions. High-end cars by the elites.

There are few that are better suited for this role. We went from a warmongering, dictatorial country to a peaceful, mature democracy. If we can change, everybody can. Our experience were very similar to what Poland has to deal with, we had to establish a democracy and reintegrate the old elites into our society (twice with the GDR). We are also Poland's neighbour and have thus a great interest in a good Polish development.


The EU is a very good example as to why this belief is false. Germany is often called the dominant country in the EU, but it is not due to the constitutional framework of the EU, which in fact favours smaller countries over large ones. It is because of its good reputation and careful diplomacy that made Germany so succesful (though the economic muscle certainly helped a lot).

Not I'm conflating...soft power means all that...you are only skipping the uppermost surface and believe that's all there is.

Britain is the only english speaking country in Europe...there shouldn't be a working EU still existing after Britain left...and took all it's singer and movies and book and generell culture with it.

But the contrary is true...the EU is still standing and the only thing growing will be german influence and soft power on the continent...and all that without any german singer and movie and book you could name!

PS: There are firms in Germany which feed whole towns with all it's people in it. How many people feed the english songs and movies?

Nice photos :) Baltycka ?

Btw - one German shop and two Polish

And to that doubt Mazur is posting the picture of a Top Secret store for showing anyone who wants to look at them that he indeed was !

"Top Secret" is one of the brands of the solely Polish company Redan from Łódź which has been listed on the Warsaw Stock Exchange since 2003. Other brands of that company are: "Textilmarket" or "Troll" (store of the latter one would have suited Mazur's interests much better than Top Secret, IMHO). Many Polish companies have an inclination for choosing non-Polish names for their brands. To be precise, these are not always English/American names, but quite often Italian - for example Gino Rossi (shoes) is a Polish company established in 1992.

I think the expansion of the English language in our country is not only a Polish phenomenon. You can observe the same thing in Germany and also the Germans do not mind (I once read the results of a German opinion poll in which most people said they did not mind at all). Several centuries ago the international language was Geek, then it was Latin, and then, tens of years ago it was French, so there is really no need to make so much fuss about. After all, you dear Mazur are a Polish immigrant who at home refuse to speak in Polish to your children or grandchildren, so where's the problem?

Sorry, but you are still confusing what people have in their checking accounts with what they feel and how they spend their leisure money.
The Americanization of Europe and Poland has been amazing. Germanization is a lot more subtle. Ordinary person does not know or care who owns what percentage of a "Polish" company stock. But they see all those American, or American-looking, signs and ads. I have seen so many in both, Polish and English, as if Poland went bilingual. The irony of it being that the mall may actually be owned be a German company.