Polish Independence Day March in Warsaw. Is it going to be the biggest march yet?

Isn't it rather that a union makes each one of the members much stronger? Isn't it so that Scotland, Wales, Iowa, Montana or Vermont...each for his own would be a weak loser? Always the pawn of the much stronger neighbour?

Aren't these unions extremely successful? Much more successful than the not-unions? Would you call the UK or the US a dysfunctional mess?

I doubt the Bundestag would disappear, Scotland or Vermont have their own governments too... there had been just recently hotly contested elections in each of the US states if I remember correctly...the democracy fully in motion.

But one olympic team? One footie team? GOD YES!!! We would so rule!!!!! :):):)

I don't think that's a very good example! Scotland has far more independence than poor old Wales which is basically one country being ruled by another whilst Scotland has its own parliament, its own legal system, education system and can even issue their own banknotes.


And no need at all to mention the war :D (You know the famous episode of Fawlty Towers).

Maybe...but the build-up to a real USofE will take many decades. Not all countries will be on the same level at once...

Again, an imperial project absorbing weaker nations... it's too bad there's no expression that says that when things seem really different now they're not that different from something before.... we could really use that.

I don't think there will ever be a United States of Europe in the same form as the United States of America for many, many reasons.


Sorry Maf, but you've actually described the USA there. That's one of the many reasons that we'll never have a USE - because the USA demonstrates that it doesn't work, even when it's deliberately formed by a group of people who broadly share a sense of identity or nationhood. America is just too big to function well as a single nation and a USE would be the same. Worse in fact because it's bigger than the USA.

Just think: nations = regions in a USofE

Especially the federal system in Germany has alot of experiences with strong regional identities and we have learned to be all Bavarians, Brandenburger, Hesse, Swabians and what not and still preferring to live in this union called Germany.

There are of course rich power regions like Bavaria and structural weaker regions like...say....Mecklenburg-Vorpommern. In a union like the US, the UK and also Germany, the richer regions give to the weaker regions. The weaker regions are much better off because of this...that is already happening in the EU (called EU funds wandering from the net payer to the net receiver) but would even more so in a USofE.

I doubt the Mecklenburg-Vorpommeranians feel absorbed...or the Bavarians imperial!

What are you so scared of?

We can make it better...but for now it's the best example we have. The US achieved something that Europe didn't...bringing Europeans together (which at home still hate each others guts), to leave their old quarrels behind like an old skin and build something new and extremely successful.

It is worth remembering Mrs Thatcher who insisted on Europe being "the Europe of nations" rather than a kind of federal Europe.

She also used to promote the concept of East Germany remaining a separate state rather than being swallowed by West Germany.

Absolutely, at present it's more divided than any time since the Civil War and the gap is growing and shows no signs of diminishing and many analysts assume that it's going to break up into several separate countries in the coming decades, the main question is how peacefully or violently...

In terms of language, culture (social and political and economic) Europe (west of Russia) the USE is a bad idea and would require tremendous cultural levelling. Russia is a closer match to the US (expanding outward over a large area of land and absorbing/displacing weaker regions and peoples).

She was a smartie. She saw Europe from the power point of the UK. Britain was always the happiest when Europe was disunified. "Perfidious Albion" meant more or less that Britain would always build an alliance against the one country in mainland Europe which threatened to become to powerful, to keep it's own position at the top.

That kind of politics doesn't work anymore with a unified Europe...hence the late joining ("When you can't destroy it, join it").

But what's good for Britain isn't good for Europe.


Do you have a link?

Well, looking at the history of the US, I'd say violently, especially with the population being as heavily armed as they are. There would certainly be some degree of violence, if not an out-and-out civil war. I think we, the human race, tend to forget that in our time on this earth, we are living what will become our history. It may seem unthinkable that the US could have another civil war and break apart, but then in 1920 the world thought that WWI had been 'the war to end all wars'. Nothing lasts forever. However, we have now wandered into dangerous territory as we've started discussing the good ole US of A, of which we already have enough and plenty to spare on this forum!

Put "breakup of the USA" or "Will the USA break up" into google and you'll find lots of stuff...


Similarly, what's good for Germany isn't necessarily good for Europe either...

Thought games, nothing else. The same kind of thought games of a break up which are around since the EU's inception too...


Germany would be a region lik any other....as a (hopefully) economical still strong region it would support the weaker regions, even more so as now.

Again, what are you so scared of?

Not scared, just disappointed at the lack of imagination and sad at the loss of languages and cultural distinctiveness, a least common denominator Europe sounds like the most boring thing in existence...

I like being in Poland at least partly because Polish people aren't like punctual, dull Germans. If I were in Germany I wouldn't want the plodding Germans turned into flaky haphazard Poles.

Man, if it aren't the muslims now it is a stronger union which will destroy us...our cultures must be really some fragile snowflakes...especially the stereotypes of them.

(I wonder how the Scots or the Walisians retained their language and antics)

*takes hat*

Don't know about the Walisians, but the Scots didn't really retain their language any more than the Irish did. Knowledge of the language remains and some people can speak it but it isn't really used in an every day context. Of course it was only ever the Highland Scots who spoke Gallic but anyway.........there are songs in the Scottish and Irish tradition about the loss of the language. Here's an English translation of a Scottish lament for the Gallic tongue:

In the place of Gàidhlig is the foreigners'language
And the Gaidhealtach, cradle of heroes
Is today the land of majors and colonels.

Pass down to us the golden candlesticks
And into them put the white wax candles
Light them up in the mourning room
Of the wake house of the Gael's old language

Although Ireland has a much smaller population than Scotland, our form of the Gaelic tongue is far more widely spoken there than Gallic is in Scotland mainly because we managed to revive it after the departure of the English. If we'd remained part of the UK it would quite probably be virtually gone by now.

"You started it!"

"No we didn't"
"Yes you did - you invaded Poland!"

We can only hope that celebrating Poland's obviously well-deserved and hard fought independence won't mean in the future independence from the rest of Europe.

Hungary is making that mistake right now and no doubt it will cost them in time to come!

A madwoman, don't you mean? What would Eastern Germany be now if it were a separate state? Probably one of those suspect and dangerous mini-empires so well portrayed by John Buchan.

If they could mess with their athletes sexuality there's no limit to how low your countrymen would have stooped BB. And that's what Thatcher wanted. Divide and conquer. Nasty woman, and I'm delighted she lived to old age, to be constantly reminded of how hated she was.

She wasn't in the least concerned about the Eastern Germans, frankly she gave a sh'it about their welfare...she spoke purely from a british point of view. Two Germany's are preferable than one unified one. (The more the weaker)

Many little european countries are much easier to handle for Britain than one unified EU power bloc.


Exactly!

That's all the reason one needs to support the EU and a closer integration...IMHO.

Where are the likes of Michael Collins or Edward Carson today when you need them most, eh Atch?
Perhaps had the Irish Revolution succeeded as envisioned, there would have been no need to divide the country into Northern Ireland vs. "The Irish Free State". The Protestant English wouldn't have seen the need to "improve" Ireland and Cromwell would have decided to mind his own beeswax. But that sure ain't what happened!

One can only wonder:-)

Sorry for getting off topic.

Mmmm well now, Carson was a Unionist Lyzko and we certainly don't need more of those! I think Collins would be quite happy with the direction Ireland has taken in some respects and he'd definitely be pro the EU. He was very much a modern man in his way of thinking compared to De Valera. My granny was in the womens' auxuilliary corps of the Old IRA as we call it and she had Collins to thank for the fact that women were properly trained in the use of arms etc. He insisted on it, whilst Dev wanted them in the kitchen baking soda bread :) and yet she idolized Dev, absolutely loved him.

OK, so left-leaning Western media have started their usual narrative about Independence March. Nothing new here.
Instead of arguing with them I took a look at French festivities to compare them with the march in Warsaw.

Bastille Day in Paris [July 2018]:

Cars torched: 850 (900 in 2017 so there's a progress...)

Police have arrested 237 individuals, including 92 minors, for wreaking havoc in the Paris area

Polish Independence Day [Nov 2018]:

Cars torched: 0

No one got arrested and there was no havok

france.timesofnews.com/french-burn-850-cars-on-bastille-day-but-why-do-they-do-it

thelocal.fr/20180716/850-cars-torched-across-france-on-bastille-day-weekend

I guess there's a long way for Poland to learn Western 'culture'...


It is, Atch, but the devil is in the detail. I would support the new, improved "EU" which would only consist of a single [free] European market for goods and services. And nothing more, just the exchange of good, services and labour.

No political structure whatsoever. A union of a free, independent countries with their own monetary and political systems and laws.

Art in all forms requires minimum audiences. Books would not be written and music would not be composed if the world population went through a blender. All great art was a result of conflicts. From Romeo and Juliet to the D-Day. In a homogenized, conflict-free world, art would be created by a supercomputer operated by the UN and running a 100% politically correct and non-offensive algorithm.

What great art came from Iowa? Would Chopin compose his music in Nebraska?

That is a lot of nonsense BB. To put In practical terms it wouldn't work. Germany are the least country that could pull it seeing+ as they go about their business in the EU.


Indeed. Hence they are unable to stop to spew lies in simple matters, they cannot be trusted in anything. The same goes for Germany. IF Germany wants federal Europe the first move of the future federal Europe should take on all debts all members that includes Greece and Italy. That what USA done.

Somehow I don't see it happening.

That would be the price to pay...yes.

The one thing I like about these marches is that the males with hoods and hools lol involved dont want to be west they dont want to be corporate america and almost are russian in the sense. they may over time accept that we at one time were part of the empire and not umerica or france (despite that stupid wwo song comparing it). I cant stand hala kosyzkow or these polaks females trying to be rich or west or gold diggers. that aint us, no sir.

I dont think it was males with hoods or football hooligans - in fact it was mostly families and children

...those kids carrying "Muslim Rapists - Stay Away" banners. Little intolerant racists.