(To tell you the truth, I prefer vodka over beer anyway...)
*makes note on pad*
*waves to Filios*
GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE!
*makes note on pad*
*waves to Filios*
(And then throw the Turks out...pleeeaaaase!)
The original founders are gone, but we may be willing to accept the real astate if it's delivered in its original state - Turkless ;)
Hey, why only "polish"?! :( Where do you guys live right now? In Moscow it's morning now. I thought you Filios lived in Greece.
Yes, I'm sorry, where were my manners..
Goodnight my Slavic brothers and sisters...
(and yes, you are right, I'm in Poland, and I now go to sleep!)
Day off today :)
Koper is Polish world and we translate it into english lagueage it means dill.
KOPER IN POLISH = MEANS DILL IN ENGLISH !!!
HE IS POLISH
KOPER IN POLISH = MEANS DILL IN ENGLISH !!!
HE IS POLISH
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11820
15 Oct 2008 / #155
Nice to know but why should Kopernikus family called after "dill"???
We eat that with fish...:(
Why?
We eat that with fish...:(
HE IS POLISH
Why?
Good night everybody!
Me tired, too!
*blows kiss to BB*
*bops Luki on the head with a rolled up magazine*
Me tired, too!
*blows kiss to BB*
*bops Luki on the head with a rolled up magazine*
Where is the reason for "dill"??? I don't understand...
The reason is that word "koper" is meaningful in Polish. It means "dill", -nik is also slavic. This theory looks good as well as your theory about germanic origins of his last name.
Well if also take into consideration that he spoke german, then would be the leader but how about facts he spoke polish? And how do we know that he was upbrought in german traditions?
Goodnight my Slavic brothers and sisters...
Good night, bro! :)
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11820
15 Oct 2008 / #158
Me tired, too!
*blows kiss to BB*
*blows kiss to BB*
*grabs kiss out of air*
Coming soon...:)
And how do we know that he was upbrought in german traditions?
His mother was Barbara Watzenrode, after his (unknown to us) father died he was brought up by the family of Bishop Lukas Watzenrode....german was his mother tongue, he visited german schools, wrote his books in latin and german and used a very explicit signature in all of his works:
The Copernicus manuscript book states : [...] Nicolaus Copernicus Canon [in] Warmia, in Prussia Germaniae mathematician...(Nicolai Copernick Canonici Varmiensis, in Borussia Germaniae mathematici)
I think we can safely assume that his upbringing was german mainly!
Nice to know but why should Kopernikus family called after "dill"???We eat that with fish...:(
In Poland we have such names. Kiełbasa means sousage and some Polish citiznes have surname Kiełbasa.
I have checked my Warsaw phonebook and I found Kopernik in Warsaw. It is normal Polish name.
His mother was Barbara Watzenrode, after his (unknown to us) father died he was brought up by the family of Bishop Lukas Watzenrode
Why you avoid his Polish father Polish education Polish language and service in Polish army against Germans.
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11820
15 Oct 2008 / #160
I found Kopernik in Warsaw. It is normal Polish name.
Did you find "Kopperlingk" to?
(I don't doubt that "Kopernik" is polish...that's why nobody else calls him that way but Kopernikus/or the anglicized Copernicus)
Why you avoid his Polish father Polish education Polish language and service in Polish army against Germans.
I never avoided that, quite the contrary:
About his father nearly nothing is known and most are just guesses...there are strong signs leaning to a german father but there is no proof.
And I repeatedly answered your only "real" argument for his "polishness" that political allegiance doesn't change your racial or cultural heritage!
You on the other hand are steadily ignoring what Kopernikus himself said about his nationality..for him it never was a question, even as he supported Poland against the Teutonic Order!
The Copernicus manuscript book states : [...] Nicolaus Copernicus Canon [in] Warmia, in Prussia Germaniae mathematician...(Nicolai Copernick Canonici Varmiensis, in Borussia Germaniae mathematici)
PS: It was't a national war Poland against Germany....
Nice to know but why should Kopernikus family called after "dill"???
We eat that with fish...:(
We eat that with fish...:(
He-he... in Russian the last name "Ukropov" (Dillman) would sound funny. I like dill with salmon. :)
His mother was Barbara Watzenrode, after his (unknown to us) father died he was brought up by the family of Bishop Lukas Watzenrode....german was his mother tongue, he visited german schools, wrote his books in latin and german and used a very explicit signature in all of his works:
Quite decisively. :) Now your turn Julek.
Firstly we now have to finally make up our minds on what we really need to take into consideration judging Kopernik's personality: his cultural values and direction or his genetics (whether he was Polish by blood or German).
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11820
16 Oct 2008 / #162
Did you read that article Sasha?
economicexpert.com/a/Copernicus:nationality.htm
I could live with that:
I don't know why the Poles can't!
Interesting info...
deutsche-und-polen.de/_/personen/person_jsp/key=nikolaus_kopernikus.html
His father worked in Thorn also as a lay assessor (jury man)...a position only for Germans at that time...
If that is true it would make Kopernikus a full German!
economicexpert.com/a/Copernicus:nationality.htm
I could live with that:
One can say summarizing, that Copernicus' working language was Latin, his mother tongue was German, his sovereign was Polish and his father tongue was probably Polish. He is undisputedly a Central-European.
I don't know why the Poles can't!
Interesting info...
deutsche-und-polen.de/_/personen/person_jsp/key=nikolaus_kopernikus.html
Außerdem war sein Vater Schöffe in Thorn, was damals Deutschen vorbehalten war.
His father worked in Thorn also as a lay assessor (jury man)...a position only for Germans at that time...
If that is true it would make Kopernikus a full German!
Did you read that article Sasha?
Honestly not (I was devoured by your discussion) but now I've read and I see it's about the same to what you've said here. It looks good I merely want to hear something alike from Poles and wanted to be as neutral as possible.
How about the nowadays Germany? Have you heard of anybody with Koppernigk surname?
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11820
16 Oct 2008 / #164
Have you heard of anybody with Koppernigk surname?
This -nigk is as german as -nik is polish but else, I don't know anybody with this name....let me google it...
And I repeatedly answered your only "real" argument for his "polishness" that political allegiance doesn't change your racial or cultural heritage!
What kind of races you know ?
(I don't doubt that "Kopernik" is polish...that's why nobody else calls him that way but Kopernikus/or the anglicized Copernicus)
I have never seen argumentation you show us here. It is totaly new for me that Germans 60 years after the WWII consider Kopernik German.
PS: It was't a national war Poland against Germany....
Teutonic order is considered German. Kopernik was on Polish side fighting against German troops. He was studing in Cracow and he never betrayed Poland, and he could do so. My family knows that such decisions aren't politics.
In middle ages
It was normal war between Polish state and one of German speaking countries. Some citizens had Polish allegiance Kopernik was one of them. I feel uncomfortable in discussion about race and heritage inherited in blood. Firstly I would like to ask you question about Polish race ? What do you mean by that? Kopernik sounds Polish and I have this name in phonebook For some reasons I feel uncomfortable in such debate.
I've come to the conclusion that Bratwurst Boy is an internet geek and social outcast who spends his time on forums like this fighting for the "good" of all krauts. I'm sure he slicks his hair back, smokes a pipe, wears black rimmed glasses and says "vas is dat?" . He still hasn't addressed the issue of why Germans have Germanized Kopernik to Kopernikus when Poles want to stay neautral with Copernicus (Latinized) . This is because he knows he belongs to a nation of cultural thieves who don't like it when their neighbour is getting the attention they deserve. It's in typical German character. But it's ok. Poles don't have to like Germans and we don't have to abide by their rules either.
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11820
16 Oct 2008 / #167
Then why do you debate? Nobody forces you! :)
I'm sorry to hear that it's news for you that Germans consider Kopernikus as German but then I wonder why you (and seemingly your teachers) totally ignore his german heritage, his german roots.
How can you lay sole claim on a man who was at best mixed but most probably fully German? Who called himself "prussian german mathematician"?
But then...maybe you need that to feel better...*shrugs and takes coat*
I'm sorry to hear that it's news for you that Germans consider Kopernikus as German but then I wonder why you (and seemingly your teachers) totally ignore his german heritage, his german roots.
How can you lay sole claim on a man who was at best mixed but most probably fully German? Who called himself "prussian german mathematician"?
But then...maybe you need that to feel better...*shrugs and takes coat*
What does it mean German ? My mother has German name but I wouldn't like to be labled "German" it is stupid. You don't know Polish reality and you talk like those Germans who came to my country in WWII. Genral Anders is great example. Proud Polish soldier fighting agains Nazi Germany in Polish army.
Open Polish phonebook and look on surenames there ... do you consider this all people Germans. Kopernik has Polish name but lets say it is German. What does it change ?
Open Polish phonebook and look on surenames there ... do you consider this all people Germans. Kopernik has Polish name but lets say it is German. What does it change ?
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11820
16 Oct 2008 / #169
Maybe you should leave WWII behind...it's clouding your judgement!
That your "outrage" about the name of the space program is just ridiculous!
Well, that only shows that (if your family really has german roots) you are a polonized German....those exist the same way as germanized Poles live in Germany (and fought for Germany).
So what!
But Kopernikus was neither Pole nor a polonized German nor a germanized Pole, HE WAS GERMAN!
Read his signature again...he wouldn' call himself "german mathematician" if he would consider himself polish, now wouldn't he!
Think!
Kopernik has Polish name but lets say it is German. What does it change ?
That your "outrage" about the name of the space program is just ridiculous!
My mother has German name but I wouldn't like to be labled "German"
Well, that only shows that (if your family really has german roots) you are a polonized German....those exist the same way as germanized Poles live in Germany (and fought for Germany).
So what!
But Kopernikus was neither Pole nor a polonized German nor a germanized Pole, HE WAS GERMAN!
Read his signature again...he wouldn' call himself "german mathematician" if he would consider himself polish, now wouldn't he!
Think!
What does it mean German ?
Julek you brought a good issue: nationality is a question of selfidentification rather than of blood and your mother has every right to be Polish having German surname.
But BB stated another point:
Who called himself "prussian german mathematician"?
Which might mean he [Kopernik] bracketed himself with Germans?! What do you think?
But Kopernikus was neither Pole nor a polonized German nor a germanized Pole, HE WAS GERMAN!Read his signature again...he wouldn' call himself "german mathematician" if he would consider himself polish, now wouldn't he! Think!
Which might mean he [Kopernik] bracketed himself with Germans?! What do you think?
In middle agges being German or Polish had much different meaning. Political situation on Polish-German border.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaus_von_Renys
During the Battle of Grunwald in 1410, von Renys carried the banner of the Culmerland troops for the Teutonic Order, described in the Latin Banderia Prutenorum. Unwilling to fight against Poland, he lowered the banner, which was considered a signal for retreat that contributed to the defeat of the Knights.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_estates
Norman Housley noted that "The alienation of the Prussian Estates represented a massive political failure on the part of the Order". At first, the estates opposed Order more passively, by denying requests for additional taxes and support in Order wars with Poland; by 1440s Prussian estates would act openly, rebelling against the Order and siding with Poland militarily (see Lizard Union, Prussian Confederation and the Thirteen Years' War)
After horrible 20 century we like to watch movies about battles between east and west but in reality it was much different. It wasn't batte between races like some people would like to see.
Polish German contacts weren't always hostile.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Gniezno
In 1000 A.D, while on the pilgrimage, Otto III invested Duke Boleslaus I of Poland with the titles frater et cooperator Imperii ("Brother and Partner of the Empire") and populi Romani amicus et socius.
On the same visit, Otto III raised Gniezno to the rank of an archbishopric. Three new dioceses subordinate to Gniezno were created: the Bishopric of Kraków (assigned to bishop Poppo), Wrocław (assigned to bishop Johannes) and Kołobrzeg (assigned to bishop Reinbern). St. Adalbert's brother Radzim Gaudenty became the first archbishop of Gniezno.
On the same visit, Otto III raised Gniezno to the rank of an archbishopric. Three new dioceses subordinate to Gniezno were created: the Bishopric of Kraków (assigned to bishop Poppo), Wrocław (assigned to bishop Johannes) and Kołobrzeg (assigned to bishop Reinbern). St. Adalbert's brother Radzim Gaudenty became the first archbishop of Gniezno.
Which might mean he [Kopernik] bracketed himself with Germans?! What do you think?
I don't know what to think about it and I doubt in Bratwurst informations about this signature on documents to be true but I will check this data.
Now I will use Britanica:
britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/136591/Nicolaus-Copernicus
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11820
16 Oct 2008 / #172
Polish German contacts weren't always hostile.
I fully agree...that's why I always stated we should share him...but it's the Poles with
all their "outrage" claiming him solely for Poland, denying his german roots and heritage!
What do you expect us to do? Just sit back and accept?
Harry
17 Oct 2008 / #173
Well if you can't agree to share him, I guess we'll just have to call him Copernicus from now on all over the whole world.
Here's an interesting comparison:
Copernicus was born to German parents, described himself as German, used only German (and Latin) but, according to Poles, is Polish and not at all German because he was born in Poland and fought against some Germans.
So by the logic of some Poles, Auschwitz must be Polish and not at all German because it was 'born' in Poland to German 'parents', described itself as German and was used against some Germans thoughout its life.
Personally I'd call Copernicus Prussian and Auschwitz Nazi but that's just me.
Here's an interesting comparison:
Copernicus was born to German parents, described himself as German, used only German (and Latin) but, according to Poles, is Polish and not at all German because he was born in Poland and fought against some Germans.
So by the logic of some Poles, Auschwitz must be Polish and not at all German because it was 'born' in Poland to German 'parents', described itself as German and was used against some Germans thoughout its life.
Personally I'd call Copernicus Prussian and Auschwitz Nazi but that's just me.
Lukasz wrote:
Kopernik was student on Polish univeristy he spoken Polish. Toruń isn't Prussia.
Finaly if we use blood key. French president is Hungarian Jew, British foreign afairs minister is Polish Jew. Most of Famous Russians are Polish or Jewish.
Dostojewski is Polish, Nikolai Gogol is Polish their dyplomats are Polish. All Polish people with blue eyes are German or other verion all German people with blue eyes are Slavic or Scandinavians.
If Germans want use Nazi blood key when tehy create EU policy we can do it. Firstly we should officialy start to call Sarkozy Jewish president of France. Michèle Alliot-Marie was Polish defence minister of France. Russian diplomacy Polish because half of their diplomats have Polish roots. Jewish diplomacy of UK their current foreign affairs minister is Polish Jew.
We must prepare DNA tests for our citizens to clasify their race and place in society.
Kopernik was loyal Polish citizen who fought against German country.
Kopernik was student on Polish univeristy he spoken Polish. Toruń isn't Prussia.
Finaly if we use blood key. French president is Hungarian Jew, British foreign afairs minister is Polish Jew. Most of Famous Russians are Polish or Jewish.
Dostojewski is Polish, Nikolai Gogol is Polish their dyplomats are Polish. All Polish people with blue eyes are German or other verion all German people with blue eyes are Slavic or Scandinavians.
If Germans want use Nazi blood key when tehy create EU policy we can do it. Firstly we should officialy start to call Sarkozy Jewish president of France. Michèle Alliot-Marie was Polish defence minister of France. Russian diplomacy Polish because half of their diplomats have Polish roots. Jewish diplomacy of UK their current foreign affairs minister is Polish Jew.
We must prepare DNA tests for our citizens to clasify their race and place in society.
Kopernik was loyal Polish citizen who fought against German country.
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11820
17 Oct 2008 / #175
Crap...it was a Prussian civil war and he was a against the policies of the Teutonic Order!
Since when was the Teutonic Order Germany?
Get your history right!
Huh???
Kopernikus saw himself as German, does that make him a Nazi??? :):):)
Since when was the Teutonic Order Germany?
Get your history right!
If Germans want use Nazi blood key when tehy create EU policy we can do it.
Huh???
Kopernikus saw himself as German, does that make him a Nazi??? :):):)
The Copernicus manuscript book states : [...] Nicolaus Copernicus Canon [in] Warmia, in Prussia Germaniae mathematician...(Nicolai Copernick Canonici Varmiensis, in Borussia Germaniae mathematici)
Crap...it was a prussian civil war and he was a against the policies of the Teutonic Order!
He was born when Toruń was part of Poland. Poland was fighting against Teutonic Order.
Harry
17 Oct 2008 / #177
Kopernik was student on Polish univeristy he spoken Polish. Toruń isn't Prussia.
Got any proof at all that he spoke Polish? No, because there is none. Lectures at that university at that time were most likely in Latin.
Toruń was, at the time of Copernicus' birth, in Royal Prussia.
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11820
17 Oct 2008 / #178
He was born when Toruń was part of Poland. Poland was fighting against Teutonic Order.
Poland was once partitioned and millions of Poles lived within Prussia/the german Empire...did that make them to Germans???
Harry
17 Oct 2008 / #179
Kopernikus saw himself as German, does that make him a Nazi??? :):):)
There's a rather amusing bit on wikipedia about Copernicus, Nazis and Poles:
Nevertheless, some have preferred to assign a single nationality to Copernicus. Nazi Germany claimed Copernicus to have been purely German,[43] while Poland has always promoted him as purely Polish.
Even today, some Germans and Poles continue to regard him as having been exclusively one of their own.
Even today, some Germans and Poles continue to regard him as having been exclusively one of their own.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernicus
Nicolaus Copernicus was born on February 19, 1473, in a house on St. Anne's Street (now Copernicus Street) in the city of Toruń (Thorn). Toruń, situated on the Vistula River, was a city in Royal Prussia, a region of the Kingdom of Poland.[1] [2]Nicolaus was named after his father, who about 1458 had moved from Kraków
You can find people called Kopernik in Kraków.