I'm sorry to resurrect the old thread, but as this is something I have been studying quite a bit lately as I've been writing a book on the Medieval Baltic. I thought I would chime in.
The debate about Nicholas Copernicus / Niklas Koppernigk has gone on for centuries and been debated by University professors and so on, and literally been the (partial) cause of wars, so I'm unlikely to settle the issue. I seriously doubt I could convince Bratworst Boy of anything including the color of the sky if we were both standing under it on a clear day!
But maybe I can contribute some nuance and a few facts to the argument.
1) Ethnicity
During this period (late 15th / early 16th Century) there was no such country as Germany. There was the Holy Roman Empire which was largely German-speaking, and there was the Deutschordensland, aka Ordensstaat, aka The Monastic State of the Teutonic Order, which was a mostly German military religious order that controlled a large part of Prussia during this period, as well as the Livonian Order which controlled much of what is today Latvia and Estonia, and many German nobles and aristocrats in regions such as Pomerania, Lusatia and Silesia with strong political links to the Holy Roman Empire. There was also the Hanse or Hanseatic League which was a German speaking (specifically Middle Low German) cartel which linked trading towns across Northern Europe, but also included many non German towns including London, Wisby in Sweden, Vilnius in Lithuania, and Novgorod in Russia, as well as several cities in Prussia and Poland.
The district of Prussia was one of the mixed zones in the Baltic which had alternated between German, Polish, and native Baltic control several times between 1000 and 1500 AD. Prussia was a relatively urbanized region with many towns which were part of the Hanseatic League. The majority of the rural population in Prussia were Kashubians, people of a mixed Baltic - Slavic heritage who spoke a language similar to Polish. The towns in Prussia including Gdansk / Danzig, the most important city in the region, and also including the two towns most directly associated with Copernicus / Koppernigk: Toruń / Thorn and Frambork / Frauenberg, had mixed German / Slavic populations and also included a large number of Scots, Dutchmen, and Jews, as well as native Prussians, Lithuanians, Russians and Western Europeans left behind from Crusader armies. Almost all towns in Central and Eastern Europe had substantial German speaking populations due to the Osteidlung, the German migration eastward, but in many cases the initial migration took place centuries before the time of Copernicus / Koppernigk and the local populations were no more German by ethnicity than Americans are English.
2) Language and Law
Most towns in the Baltic during this period were under German Town Law and burghers (town citizens) spoke German and other regional languages. Burghers in Prussia spoke both Middle Low German and Polish, and we know from at least one surviving phrase book some also spoke native Prussian. The language we know today as German did not exist in the time of Copernicus / Koppernigk. The lingua franca of the mercantile trade was Middle Low German, the language used by the Hanseatic League, while the lingua franca of regional governments and Church administration was Latin. Middle Low German was a derivative of Saxon which overlaps with Dutch and contributes numerous loan-words to English, the Scandinavian Languages, and the Baltic languages. It's very different from the high German or 'Standard' German spoken today.
Burghers in the Prussian towns during the late 15th and early 16th Century spoke both German and Polish. This was necessary because they conducted trade between Polish farms and the towns of the Hanseatic League. Most written records associated with trade were written in German because German was the language of the Hanse. City records were sometimes in German (due largely to their being under German town law) and sometimes in Latin (especially those towns under administration by the Church or the Religious / Military Orders) because this was the international language of Catholic Europe. After the Protestant reformation this shifted back to German in many of the towns after they converted to Lutheranism. But the use of German as a language of record did not necessarily make them German any more than the use of Latin made them Italian.
German town law was a type of charter (Handfeste) which delineated the degree of autonomy enjoyed by the town. Lubeck law represented the highest degree of autonomy, essentially that of a city-state. Kulm Law, named after the city of Chelmno in Prussia (now Poland) in the same district where Copernicus / Koppernigk lived, was a lesser level of autonomy in which the town did not control their own courts. Towns in this time were made up of several small municipalities which were often under different town charters and represented different ethnic groups. For example the town of Danzig was divided into the Altstadt / Urbs Gzddanyzc (old town), the Rechstadt / Civitas Gedanensi (Main Town), the Stare Przedmiescie (Old Suburb) and the Osiek Hakelwerk. The Stare Przedmiescie and Osiek Hakelwork was primarily Polish speaking during the 15th Century, the Altstadt and Rechstaft (and the Neustadt which was torn down due to siding with the Teutonic Order during the 13 Years War) were primarily German speaking, but most Burghers were bilingual.
Just for context, Krakow, Warsaw, and nearly every other major Polish town in this time were also chartered under German town law. So was Vilnius and Stockholm. Nearly every city in Prussia at this time also had both a Polish and a German name, both of which were used interchangeably at the time. Modern historians have understandably dropped this habit and neglected the cumbersome obligation of using both names when discussing the period, but that has has contributed to the either / or mentality of these types of debates.
3) The family of Kopernik / Copernicus
Nicholas / Niklaus did in fact speak both Polish and German. His parents, a Polish father and German mother, died when he was young and he was raised by his uncle Lucas Von Watzenrode the Younger / £ukasz Watzenrode. Lucas was a prominent Burgher of the Free and Hanseatic city of Toruń / Thorn, a Ratzheren and also a Schoffe / Šepmistr, a magistrate. When Niklaus parents died unexpectedly, Lucas sponsored his education at Jageilonian University in Krakow and later in Bologna and Cologne (the same path that Lucas himself had taken as a student). Lucas was from a prominent local family which had supported the Prussian Confederation and the Poles against the Teutonic Order during the perilous 13 Years War, during which there was significant internal strife within Toruń / Thorn. Later in his life Lucas became Bishop of Warmia. He walked a fine line between the Polish and German authorities, the Polish King wanted to appoint a relative to the post and fought at least one small war to gain the right to appoint the Bishop, and the Teutonic Order desperately wanted to re-capture the district and launched many raids into Warmia and attempted assassinations and other mischief. Lucas proved and able administrator and a strong intellectual voice in opposition to the Teutonic Order, whom he advised to apply their aggressive energies toward the Turks rather than to fellow Europeans. (This was advice, incidentally, that the Poles themselves followed when they saved Vienna from it's second siege much later on in the 17th Century). Over time the Poles adopted a pragmatic policy and tacitly supported Lucas in his role. Nicholas / Niklaus followed Lucas around on his diplomatic errands and later in life became his personal physician.
My conclusion, for what little it's worth is this: The man by ethnicity was mixed, Polish and German and probably some native Prussian and very likely Dutch, Scottish and who knows what else. But probably more Polish than anything else. He spoke both languages though most of his surviving writings were in German. His political leanings were clearly toward Poland. Germany did not exist back then, but the closest thing to German nationalism (or really any type of nationalism) were the Teutonic Order, whose attitude was very similar to Bratwurst boy in their belligerence, hostility, xenophobia, and knack for rationalization.
The period of prosperity in this region was characterized by a mix of culture. The Polish Golden Age was also the Golden Age for the German speaking town of Prussia, who having consciously decided to throw off the rule of the Teutonic Order, elected to join with Poland under the condition that they be allowed to retain their autonomy. During the Reformation and Counter-Reformtion, when the rest of Europe was tearing itself apart in religious wars, the Lutheran German speaking cities like Danzig and Elbing and Torun, remained in harmony with Catholic Poland. As a result they prospered while much of Western Europe burned.
In most of the late Medieval and Renaissance period Central Europe could be described as a 'Failed State'. The Holy Roman Empire was a very loose and politically weak patchwork of Free Cities, theocratic zones, and feudal fiefdoms. Poland was and even less centralized Kingdom dominated by the rural Gentry, of whom 500,000 had a vote in the Szlachta. Though eventually both systems broke down, it was a recipe for prosperity for over 200 years, and it's hard to argue that Germany has been better off as a hyper nationalist, Centralized state. I think you are in fact seeing some return to regionalism in Germany. And while Sarmatism was far from an ideal system, the decentralization, religious tolerance and libertarian aspects of the Polish medieval system was at least somewhat successful, at least for the nobility and the townsfolk. It was in this environment where Copernicus / Kopernik was able to publish his scientific observations unmolested, even while Galileo was put on trial for heresy in Italy.
Just my $.02
Galloglaich.
In 1512 Mikołaj Kopernik gave the oath of fidelity to Polish King Sigismund I the Old .
During Polish-Teutonic War, 1519-1521, after leaving the Warmia, by a majority of the members of the Olsztyn chapell`s property , on his shoulders rested the task of defending castles in Warmia against teutonic knights . He strengthened, among other things, Olsztyn castle fortifications, so that the approaching army of the Teutonic Knights in 1521 resigned from its siege .
W During the Polish-Teutonic war in the years 1520-1521, in the castle in Olsztyn on 16 November 1520 years he personally drafted a letter to King Sigismund I the Old, asking him for armed help against the Teutonic Knights, and ensuring his fidelity wrote that, -" I will do it totally devoted to your Majesty - even if I was to die."
No German would fight against Germans or be willing to die for Polish king and Poland This illustrates whom Copernicus was , even if his mother had german ancestry, his father was Polish from Krakow , he was raised and lived in Poland and was educated in Jagiellonian University in Krakow , Poland and Bologna , Italy . His achevements could be accomplished, because at that time Poland was in its golden age of prosperity .
His works, like many other works written in medieval Poland, were written in Latin, which was at that time the internationall language .
When you are discussing people from the 16th Century, it's pretty pointless to bring up World War II or any events in the 20th Century as they have no relevance.
And every other document he wrote? What's the reason that not even a single one of them is in Polish? Not even the letters to the King of Poland? Could it be that he didn't actually speak Polish?
If he couldn't speak Polish he would be almost unique in Warmia at that time.
We only have a few letters by Copernicus / Kopernik, most of what he wrote that survived was in Latin (Does this mean he was Roman?), and a few letters in German which was more commonly used in official matters of trade and warfare in the towns. No letters survived in Polish as you well know but that doesn't prove anything as you also well know.
The old name of his family was written in records from the period. The Kopernik family was recorded in Krakow since 1367, His great grandfather on his mothers side was recorded in the rolls of the city of Kraków in 1396 as Kopernik, his father shows up in the records in Kraków as Niklaus Kopernik in 1447 and 1448. The name derives from the copper industry which the family was involved with in Silesia. There is also a village in Silesia called Koperniki.
Copernicus' father was also the treasurer of Zwiazek Jaszczurczy (Lizard Union) which was an anti-Teutonic Order guerrilla group of Knights, including German, Polish and native Prussian knights. Several of these men were assassinated or executed by the Teutonic Order during the 15th Century.
Yes but those are historical facts and thus worthless when certain Poles are talking about history (and how they would like historical events to have been).
Yeah but does it help to pretend everyone good is German to counteract people pretending everyone good is Polish? Both ethnic / language groups share the same history, good and bad. Mostly good in Poland from the 15th to the mid 17th Century. I think the region during that period is something to be proud of both for Poles and Germans. But people today from either country have relatively little in common with our ancestors from those times. It was a very different world, one which we really don't understand very well at all (and would probably benefit from learning more about).
G
(I mean the source which shows Copernicus using that name to refer to himself, not the source of anything else).
You have to go to the Jagiellonian University library to ask for Krakow`s XV century registrar to see how his last name was written , and it was written Kopernik .
There is no doubt that the name was of Slavic origin, with the "nik" ending, typical of the Polish language, added to the professional designations (łagiewnik (potter), miecznik (sword-bearer), stolnik (master of the pantry), (rzemieślnik (craftsman), etc.).
copernicus.torun.pl/en/biography/1473-1491/4
Don`t repeat your stupid request as I told you , all his works were in latin as all works at that time . Polish kings were signing their names in latin too and no one claim they were Roman , you ignorant.
pergamentai.mch.mii.lt/IstoriniaiLietDok/istoriniailietdok_2en.pl.htm
Polish king, at Kopernik time, was Zygmunt I Old, he always signed himself as Sigismundus Rex . Does it mean he was Roman ? See the above source .
Nicolaus Copernicus is in Latin , you fool . It is not German name . Find me a German who`s name is Copernicus .
Copernicus's ancestry is 100% Polish.
Please forgive me, because I'm kind of on your side on this, but this is far too simplistic. Actually many Germans remained Catholic, like they did in Bavaria and in much of Silesia and Bohemia. The members of the Teutonic Order (mostly German) did not open ranks to Protestants until 1555, and even after than many of them remained Catholic. According to Wikipedia, as late as 1871 there were still 8 million Catholics in Prussia, there was even a powerful German Catholic political party in Prussia in the 19th Century.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_Party_%28Germany%29#Catholic_groups_in_the_Prussian_Diet
While it may be the case that most of the Germans were xenophobic and Protestant in the 20th Century, it's unfair to pretend that was the case in the early-modern period. Poles and Germans continued to intermarry during the entire time of the Rzeczpospolita. These people weren't angels but they weren't Nazi's either.
Instead she and her family were glad to be CATHOLICS and glad to SUPPORT Poland!
Why would you assume that supporting Poland against the Teutonic Order was against "German interests"? Who enforced for all Germans to have united interests? They didn't seem to have a lot of unity in the Holy Roman Empire were always fighting. Almost all the Prussian towns revolted against the Teutonic Order, were they all 100% Polish? Elbing, Danzig, Torun ?
Poles historically spoke more German and have more German last names then any other nation outside of Germany
I think that is oversimplified, I agree with you that many Poles had German names, but that was partly also due to intermarriage, and the fact that most of the towns had a lot of Germans in them. Krakow, for example had a lot of Germans. And It wasn't just in Poland. Pilsen in the Czech Republic, Stockholm in Sweden.
Are you familiar with the Ostiedlung?
G.
Copernicus's ancestry is 100% Polish.
Yeah yeah. Sure. You can't prove it, and the evidence suggests otherwise. Incidentally, as we've discussed a thousand times before - there is no such thing as being 100% Polish, partially because Poland was formed from several tribes that came together. Was he a Polan? We have no idea. You won't find a definition of "ethnically Polish" because such a thing simply didn't exist prior to the founding of the first Polish state in 966. However, it would be fair to say that to be Polish, you'd have to be ethnically Polan. Was Copernicus? Unlikely.
99.9% of all the other Germans in their area
What utter rubbish. There were plenty of German Catholics in this part of the world, and many of them didn't convert. Then again, you've never been here, what would you know?
Instead she and her family were glad to be CATHOLICS and glad to SUPPORT Poland!
You really have no idea, do you? Germans were anything but united at that point - European history contains many twists and turns, and there were certainly some Germans who preferred Poland over other Germans. Don't forget that many Germans actually assimilated into Poland and became Polish - hence why many Poles (especially in Western Poland) have Germanic names.
They are still ethnically Polish
Again - you have no idea. Claiming that they're "ethnically Polish" is utter rubbish, because you have no idea about their real history. Plenty of Poles became German, likewise in reverse - in this part of the world, claiming to be 100% anything is laughable. In fact, it only tends to be racist American Polacks who use such lines, because they don't want to admit that they, just like everyone else, are nothing but a mixed breed mongrel.
Let's be honest, MediaWatch. You only scream and shout about people being 100% POLISH, because it's not acceptable these days to say ******** blacks" and suchlike. It's still the mindset of a racist, except one that learnt to be racist within what society deems as acceptable. Still blatant racism, though.
