GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE!

Nathan dont be so suprised, politics plays a significant role in any discussion, why do you think we're so involved with your country? Sorry to break your bubble but we didnt suddenly start to love you.

Is quoting you and saying "Nice" looks like I am surprised? You are involved with my country because your asses were kicked and kicked hard. This is the only reason :)

You love me?! Yejjjjj! I **** you too ;)
* eyes filled with tears of joy and happiness from being loved, Nathan directs his gaze into the sky and thinks of Sokrates *

You're missing the point BB. What's with your fixation with haplogroups? The source I provided is from the article published by Uppsala University. The only reason why the DNA analysis was performed on the hair found in the book owned by Copernicus and kept at the Museum of that University, was to strengthen the case that the remains found are indeed those of Copernicus. As for proving his nationality, it's just wishful thinking on your part. I guess your selective reading will not let you understand the problem at hand.

In any case, the analysis of the hair resulted in interpretable profiles for four of the strains of hair. Of these, two of the strains have the same profile as the remains suspected to be those of Copernicus himself, as compared to the sample of hair found in the book which was owned by Copernicus. This would indicate that they are indeed those of Copernicus, but only as circumstantial evidence - not as proof positive.

The two matching samples of the hair might have as well belong to one of his relatives on his mothers side of the family, as well as the corps suspected to be those of Copernicus, this would explain the match and the two remaining samples that are not a match, could be his. This test can't prove or disprove this scenario and there's also a possibility of a random match. However this test dose prove that in all probability it's the same individual.

The point is they don't know for sure. The debate itself, still is whether or not those are the remains of Copernicus and you're jumping the gun by analysing haplogroups, stating that these are the remains of a German. They very well may be, after all we do know he comes from a mixed family, besides there are plenty of Germans buried in Poland and vice versa.

PS. The source that you provided, proves to me how desperate the Germans are to prove he's German. Without having concluded one debate, you start another. Like it's a done deal. LOL For goodness sake, let's come to an agreement whether or not those are the remains of the man in question in a first place, before opening Pandoras' box with your bombshell.

*waves Treaty at Piorun*

Stop adressing me....I'm bound not to respond...not
fair!!!


It was a swedish/polish team....


pnas.org/content/early/2009/07/06/0901848106.abstract


The newest genetic research was a last one in a long list of arguments which point clearly to Kopernikus being a German.
And you know that very well..stop playing daft!

It most certainly dose not. I very well know who the team of the researchers were. That's not the point, and neither am I dismissing their analysis of the data, for now. This is not the time to scrutinize those findings yet. Here's an excerpt from your own link.


In case you have missed it, let me remind you one more time. The key word here is “analysis of skeletal remains thought to be those of Nicolaus Copernicus”. You can't point to this analysis as evidence supporting your case yet. Furthermore neither of the two pieces of evidence analyzed so far here can be proven to belong to Copernicus. That's what they try to establish here. It's only thought to be of Nicolaus Copernicus. So far, all they managed to prove is that in all probability it's the same individual they deal with, no more no less. Even this is iffy, due to the fact that the DNA material in this case was limited, degraded and not all of it was a match, so there is contamination. How can you make an argument that he was German based on the analysis of the DNA when there is a question as to who that material belongs to? So we have DNA, but is it Copernicus? We just don't know yet.

So it is hardly a "desperate german try" as you stated, isn't it!

For me the killer argument is actually how he listed himself as belonging to the German Nation as he enrolled in the university in Bologna.

For me that says everything, really.
It so doesn't matter what you or I think or want to believe...

And now done with it or Torq will kill me with the Treaty!
*looks around fearfully....takes helmet and runs*

Agreed, to me all the evidence says he's Polish. :-)

Actually, I think it has very much to do with choosing. If it was only about blood ties than prince Charles would be German.

what`s wrong with Neanderthals. They were first whites

No...not really....that were the Cro-Magnon...and they ate the Neanderthals!


We are all Cro-Magnons (Coppi too)! *GROUP HUG*

Crow, were Neanderthals really white?

Got to love that! Not so long ago Poles were hugely happy that the remains of 'their' greatest scientist had been found. But now that DNA shows that Copernicus was actually German, out come the phrases "skeletal remains thought to be those of Nicolaus Copernicus"!

It's like when they exhumed Sikorski to prove that he'd been murdered by the British and then started banging on about how the modern post-mortem couldn't rule out that Sikorski had been murdered by the British!


There is nothing wrong with you and your family. The point is just that evolution has now moved on and humans are more advanced creatures than Neanderthals were / Serbians are.

I concur. Got to love that! Harry your the only person in the world that would absolutely accept those results without question as long as it suits your point of view. Can you tell me why that's no surprise at all? Yet again making a statement defying logic.


In case you have a problem with comprehension, the word “thought” is a direct quote from the very same team that conducted the DNA analysis. The fact that you take it to be so (the words you like, to be like the words of the bible) at this stage of the investigation proves not only that the phenomena of an educated moron exist, but you're a living breathing proof of it.

Nice try but you fail to address your fundamental problem: the team said 'remains which are thought to be...' (i.e. present simple tense) and you changed it to "remains thought to be..." (i.e. past simple). Oops. How inconvenient for you that you got caught changing the words of the team and still claimed you posted exactly what they said.


And more proof that you know you have just been caught being economical with the truth: instead of arguing your case (which you can't, because you don't have one), you start to chuck out the old ad homs in the vain hope that I will be distracted and insult you enough for this exchange to be moved to off-topic. Sorry to disappoint you!

With you, there's no point really. You know the expression ”never argue with a moron, they’ll drag you down to their level then beat you with experience”, you've proven this to be true time and time again on this forum and continue to do so.

And again! No attempt at all to debate the topic at hand or the fact that you got caught lying yet again. Instead it's just out with the old insults!

Tell us again how the team said 'remains which are thought to be...' (i.e. present simple tense) but when you changed it to "remains thought to be..." (i.e. past simple) that stayed as a quote. Go on!

Stop pretending you have no idea what I'm talking about. Perhaps you don't, but if that's the case then I'm giving you too much credit. Consider this.


Beside a grammar lesson for everyone, what have you proven with this statement? “remains which are thought to be...” They are still just “thought to be”, contrary your claim that they are, they have not been proven to be his, there's the difference you know. Like I've said: “you've proven this to be true time and time again on this forum and continue to do so”.

Thank you for finally admitting your attempted deception and agreeing that the remains are still thought to be Copernicus. Only took you three posts to do so!


But then you have to spoil your new commitment to the truth by lying about what I said. Please quote the post in which I said that those remains are those of Nicolaus Copernicus.

Case closed.

Well, it would be if I was talking about the remains. Another nice try.

If you're not talking about what's thought to be his remains then where did the DNA sample come from? You must have jerked him off to get the sample for DNA analysis, therefor you know that sample to be absolutely 100% his.

It would seem that this Harry is incapable of embarrassment. Perhaps his is a case of multiple personalities where one is unaware of what the other is doing.

Hey, guys, nice to follow your discussion, especially in terms of skills.
Some always coming with the ad hominem insults (just learned that term), others on a more intellectual level.

As my beloved (drooling) son is 25% Polish 25% German 25% Italian and 25% Silesian (My wife's father had a german name, spoke German, but looked like a Pole, especially the mustache ;-) That being a tie in my eyes ;-)), I really want to stay at least little pro-Germany and understand both sides - as I know both sides rather well though surely being tought a more rational perspective on things from my German schools.

So, I think the discussion from the German side is due to wanting to 100% clearing the case regardless any emotional harm.
I understand also that most other countries are allowed to have more national pride than the Germans and that the Poles just react very angrily on any suspected (repeated) attack.

But it is none, it is just a case clearing as we now have the means to do it (Encylopedias formerly were not surely discussed a lot, so it is not an argument that in most from 20th century you can read he was a Pole).

So beside that genetical discussion I was not following (though having a broad academic background of natural sciences I consider working in the biological/medical field not really error proof), I want to summarize it again.

- C. was a subject to the Polish crown, while living in Royal Prussia, that had chosen the Polish king rather than the Teutonic Knights as ally. (The Teutonic Knights are not Germany, nor representatives).

--> So the Prussians just decided so and therefore also fought against them.
--> C. therefore surely did not fight against the "Germans", I think the description above as civil war is right.

- Carlo Malagola, in his work on Urceo Codro showed that "Niccolo Kopperlingk di Thorn" had registered as a law student at Bologna in the album of the "Nazione Alemanna".

--> If everybody agrees that his father traded with copper, it must have been Kopperlingk anyway. Why should anybody given the name after dill if similar spelling fitted the professional profile much better?

--> Kopernik must have been therefore later been derived from that name, incidently matching a Polish version (kopernik/dillman).

--> Kopperlingk from Thorn (mostly German inhabitated), father copper trader also working as a local judge (what only Prussians could do), mother Watzenrode, from the age of 10 living with Lukas Watzenrode. Loyal to the Polish king, writing and talking in Polish, too.

So, from logical point of view, at least the inheritage of the family was German (language wise). Whether Prussians were 100% ethnically Germanic at that time is another question.

The Prussians are surely the most eastern tribe and therefore mixed a lot with the Poles before and afterwards, as did the Silesians.
So like I cannot say whether Silesians are more German or Polish (even theoretically speaking only one of the languages, respectively), I think I could not say that he was 100% one or one.

Still, the German language is more dominant and the inheritage of his mother. But in daily life he certainly got a lot of Polish influence too.

In the end it is more about two neighbouring villages hating each other, perhaps having another dialect but in the end being relatively similar.

So, my proposal is:

- We keep the latin name (being derived from Kopperlingk or Koppernigk, dealing w/ copper)
- We name locations how they were named at the time given. I don't call Konstantinopel Ankara either, when I am talking about Roman times. So Cracow, Thorn and Frauenstein.

- We say he was a Polish citizen of Prussian ethinicity
- His first language was German
- He could talk Polish (in my eyes anyway similar to latin, grammarwise, so why not) - living in a mixed environment wouldn't suggest anything else.

And as I did not contribute anything to his work, nor as I do not think that it is judgement about which society has achieved more, I think this statement

Ok, maybe too long for the guys wanting one liners, but thats life / c'est la vie / so ist das Leben / tak jest zycie: complex.

Why you guys still argue over this subject? There's enough evidence for both versions online and to be honest it's just a matter of where you're from and of what you want to believe. The best bet to find out is to build a time machine and talk to Copernicus himself. How about that? :-) Since we don't have this possibility, why not just forget all that and move on?

have a good 1

It's settled then. Kopernik was Polish. :)

Sure, somebody called "Kopernik" was most probably Polish... Perhaps he also had an telescope.
:)

cluening

Uhm, I meant I do not call Konstantinopel Istanbul either... (not Ankara). ;-)

I guess for you and other Poles he'll stay Polish and for some of the others, he'll be German. Just let it be.

That would explain why I see so many neanderthals walking around with "White Power" patches.


Problematic, as I think there were still ethnic Prussians around in Kop's time, who spoke (Old) Prussian (like Lithuanian)


If it was possible to prove Copernicus gay then Kaczynski would declare him German in a flash!

Erm...he never married, didn't he?

Wow, Germany's quick to try any tactic!

Neither did the Pope...