GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE!

Thats correct. Without the very aggressive stance shown by the Germans towards the Russians, (change of policy when Kaizer Wilhelm came into power) and their full fledged support for Austria, Austria began to feel an air of cockiness, as showcased in their unrealistic demands to Serbia.

Had Germany pursued a more moderate course of action, and perhaps been more open to peace discussions like the British, Austria would have not had the guts to move into Serbia for fear of Russian retaliation.

But then again, Germany was as eager to show off their new navy as Austria was to invade the Balkans.

See what I mean?
For some it's ALWAYS the Germans...

It's a nice gesture that Germans named a communications satellite after a Pole.

wait. Harry you are Jewish? A British Jew? English Jew, eventualy?

Tell me Harry, wtf you Jews needed to allayed yourself with Saudi Arabia, Albania, Croatia, Bosnian mujas, with Germany, England, France, Turkey and complete NATO and EU Borg, against Serbians?

Just look how idiotic alliance you formed just to get rid of Serbians. You are no more but bunch of creaps marouding all over Balkan and hunt Slaveno-Serbian people.

We Serbs helped you Jews as much as we could in WWII. Many Serbs risked their lives to save some Jew or some Jewish family. Shame on you Harrymane and on your pervert kind.

I never regreted for Serbs helped you Jews, for we never had serious anti-Jewish sentiment in Serbia or in Serbian lands all over the Balkan. I can only regret for Serbs trusted you. You are not better then Saudis or Iranians or Turks or fu**** germany or trecherous France, USA and England. You just appear to be different but, you very well understand each others when comes the time to deal with Slavs. You are all same, monstruous intruders.


i believe you Harry. I believe you

BUT, we shall see

This is a step in the right direction. Germans should name more things after Poles to acknowledge the contributions Poles have made over the years.

@ Crow...isn't Star Trek created and produced by members of your mortal enemies?

They might even rename it to "Kopernik" when it reenters the atmosphere... ;-)

mortal enemies?? i don`t have mortal enemies (except in bussines, eventualy). But, Borg is Borg, in a movie and in a real life.


True. Germans should rename Germany into Western Poland to acknowledge Polish contribution to its very existance.

BB has some good points, though. Still, in PIFL, the position of the father takes precedence over the mother.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaus_Copernicus#Death

"The astronomer's grandfather, Lucas Watzenrode the Elder, was a decided opponent of the Teutonic Knights.[56] In 1453 he was the delegate from Toruń at the Grudziądz conference that planned an uprising against the Teutonic Knights"

His grandfather also supported financially the struggle against the Teutonic order even though he was German. So point about Copernicus' fight against T-guys doesn't convey his belonging to Polish origin.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaus_Copernicus#Death

The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy states: "Thus the child of a German family was a subject of the Polish crown."[65]
Ok.

Nathan, that sounds like Germans who wish to be Polish so we call them Poles.

Now that that's settled.

Not at all, PP. You could wish to be Canadian or Australian but you'd still be American in the absence of any meaningful change.

But, what if you are native american Apache and some native Australian aboriginals or Canadian escimos say that it sound crazy that you as Apache want to become subject of Australia or Canada. What then? Apache could be confused

on the end, i think that nobody gives a flying sh** for dilemmas of native Australian, Canadian or American

Seanus, Where is the proof Copernicus clung to teutonism or Germanity? I don't see it. His father was Polish, also. His mother's side of the family were German but fought Teutonism. Sounds like they were more Polish than German.

If you were to show me proof his family supported the teutons and were anti polanism I could say he was German but that isn't the indication so why turn him into something he isn't just to satisfy certain people who can't even go back in time and ask him what he would prefer to be called "German" or "Polish"? Or is the correct term "Prussian"?

PP, he didn't need to cling to it. He wrote in German which is significant. Germans would fight Teutonism if it wasn't the right regime for them, that means nothing.

Copernicus may have resisted due to maternal pressure. Look at the Bosnian Serbs fighting with Serbs with no connection to Bosnia. They may have clung to one at the expense of the other but, in reality, they were both.

I guess the key question is, 'what's in a label?'. He is Polish by label but you could have been born in China to American parents. Are you still Chinese if you move back to America and study there for some time with a settled intention to stay?

I ask you, what is the deciding factor?

Crow, tha Apache must know his heritage and identity. Feeling isn't the decisive factor but it is one of them.

He writes in German because that's what he knows. I write in English does that make me British? What does the language itself mean? His mother was a German woman and spoke to him in German so he learned it. I learned English growing up because that's what everyone around me spoke but I am American.

One thing we must all ask ourselves: What does language make us? Just because you are fluent in a language...does it make you that nationality or culture?

This is a true sentence if you replace "German" with "Silesian".

PP, he was born 7 years into the changeover to Polish status. If his family deemed it so important for him to be a Pole then why was German all he knew? Language is not the deciding factor either. I can express myself quite well in 2 other languages than my L1 but does that make me natives of those countries, no. You are right but I didn't argue that language was the decisive factor.

Settled intention and meaningful connections are. The latter must be weighed according to the prevailing climate and the totality of factors. So I ask again, the majority of his work was in Polish or German?

I'm not sure about it, Seanus, because I cannot ask Copernicus what he thinks of Poles and of Germans and which he would identify with and why. I am sure if I could I would get an interesting answer and it wouldn't be so simple as "Why, Prussian, of course!" He might have been anti German because of Teutonism and negated everything German despite that.

Disgusted by Teutonism, he might be critical of Germans for accepting it, kind of like Nietzsche was critical of Prussia and identified with Poles and claimed Polish ancestry even though there isn't any.

Exactly, now you're talkin!! PIFL lawyers have wrangled over this and come to no definitive conclusion either way. Many have betrayed their countries or taken other sides but that doesn't wipe out their roots and history. BB is on shaky ground as I believe the parents issue, esp the father, to be highly important. If I went to China and really felt Chinese, that wouldn't make me Chinese.

There's the crux of the issue: Copernicus was neither purely Polish nor purely German. However, while most Germans seem to be willing to share him with Poland, very few Poles are willing to return the favour.

Interestingly, if Copernicus was born today, he would not qualify for Polish citizenship. His father wouldn't have been Polish by birth and that would mean that Nicolaus wouldn't be either.

In Latin, also Sean Kopernik could speak Polish from day 1 given that his family hailed from Kraków.

As for his name its not germanized, its latinized, it was the fad of these times to have a latinized name for most academics regardless of nationality.

Do you have any proof at all that Copernicus could speak Polish?

BTW: his family were not "from Krakow". His father was born there but neither of his grandparents were. This fact, combined with his mother being German-born to German parents, means that he would not now be able to claim a Polish passport by right.

You are applying 21st century code to the 16th century. Too much sun?

Even Krakau had lot's of Germans. It was a city of the Hanseatic League after all.
How do you think papa Kopernikus spoke with his wife Barbara Watzenrode?
And how did the children converse with their uncle Watzenrode who took them in later?

Any evidence at all that Kopernikus spoke polish?


Well...the Poles do!

There is not much polish about the Koppernighs but alone the fact that he was born in a then polish town let's Poles fight tooth and nail over him.

Regardless that he stems from german background and his family lived in a german town (before the peace of Thorn).

THAT is 21th century nationalism at it's worst!

More on Kopernik.

What we know about Kopernik is that he did write his letters in Latin and German but that doesnt prove anything since Poland at the time used Latin as its official law/trade/nobility language.

However a very significant fact that justifies Poles claiming he spoke Polish is the fact that he written Polish peasant names correctly when writing on the goods of the Warmian Bishop, given that Western chronicles and writers regularly made mistakes and misspellings in difficult second names (all Teutonic Chronicles) thats a pretty big argument and if he could write in Polish he could definitely speak it.

As for Koperniks fathers side of the family it originated from Silesia (which was a multicultural region at the time) but his family resided in Kraków for at least 3 generations, he spoke and wrote Polish, had a Polish name and Polish citizensship as well as a Polish merchant coat of arms so he's undisputedly Polish and for several generations too.

A city of the Hanseatic League with lots of Germans!


Any link for that? But I have one for you: newadvent.org/cathen/04352b.htm


How come he took the german nationality if his fathers had been polish (as you say)!


From a german family, who spoke and wrote german, who took german nationality for studies...what a Pole!

Oh please, it was a Polish capital, next thing you know you're going to make a city with 80% Polish population built by Poles and being a Polish capital into a German one, of course it was a member of the league, the league couldnt afford not to have it since it was a gateway to all of Eastern Europe, btw Germans at their peak made up 6% of the population, thats not a "lot".


The guy lived and made business in a predominantly Polish city, so did his grandfather and his great grandfather unless the guy was tugging an interpreter everywhere he went then yeah he spoke Polish, especially since he used a Polish name.

Interestingly enough Kopernik never signed his letters in German, ever, his signature Copernicus is pure Latin, some German guy (dont remember the name) introducted Kopernikus in 18century.


How do you figure he took the then non-existent "German nationality"? He signed his works in Latin, he studied in Poland and could write Polish second names with whats an apparent understanding of gramatics, was the subject of the Polish crown and had a father who's family came from then predominantly Czech Bohemia and lived in Kraków for generations.


Got any proof of that claim? There is no definite source that would confirm that Koperniks father had German roots, he definitely could not speak German, since he was a businesman in a Polish city he had to speak Polish and Latin to even do business.


As far as i know Kopernik studied in Kraków, Poland and in Italy, his main preoccupation in Toruń was astronomy and fighting Germans for the Polish king.

No, BB, Poles considered him Polish in the previous ceturies also.

Why don't you put him on your banknotes?

Another try of denying german past and history in what is now Poland?
First Danzig and now Krakau?

Just read that: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krak%C3%B3w#Golden_age


Etc., etc., etc.....lot's of Germans in this city of the Hanseatic League.
Stemming from Cracow is so not a killer argument for being polish!

And again just for you: newadvent.org/cathen/04352b.htm


THAT is a killer argument!


Well...Kopernikus considered himself as a German...that counts more if you ask me!


Well...we have Euros now and I think you will lose his banknote too once you join the Euro....

PS: A German brings printing to Poland...any comments on that?