And since his body has just been found, it should be DNA-testable, not that DNA determines cultural identity anyway.
GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE!
Chopin was half French, hence the name.
Skłodowska married French guy called Curie...
Skłodowska married French guy called Curie...
Harry
21 Nov 2008 / #393
Chopin was half French, hence the name.
But given the logic that Copernicus can't be German because the name doesn't exist in Germany, it's impossible that Chopin was Polish because the name doesn't exist in Poland.
I know it's crazy but it's the logic used by certain Poles who claim that Copernicus is 100% Polish!
Why not? What is now Poland was once Germany, Austria or Russia...(and even further back it was where german tribes roamed freely)
You can take Serbs (Crow) or Ukrainians ... they are more much more "Germanic" than the Germans (if you folow Y DNA)
And that has to do with Kopernikus what exactly?
I've mised quoted you.
OK, let's use your logic for a moment.
OK harry the problem is that this all names exists somewhere and Koperniks names given by BB don't exist in reality only when they write about Kopernik there is such family Kopperingk. If you want to use pure blood key you will find that only half of Polish population is ancient slavic it is not exactly like some would like it to be.
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11833
21 Nov 2008 / #395
names given by Germans don't exist in reality
:):):)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veleti
:) Hitler gave your family certifcate only 150 years back not 1000 years back.
In common with other Slavic groups between the Elbe and Oder Rivers
(...)
The remnants of the Slavic tribes were gradually Germanized and assimilated during the following centuries.
(...)
The remnants of the Slavic tribes were gradually Germanized and assimilated during the following centuries.
:) Hitler gave your family certifcate only 150 years back not 1000 years back.
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11833
21 Nov 2008 / #397
Erm...it's still about Kopernikus, ya know???
PS: Now it's more than 200 years actually.....your proof of 1000 years is what?
Apropos Veleti, from your link:
See...we were there first! :)
PS: Now it's more than 200 years actually.....your proof of 1000 years is what?
Apropos Veleti, from your link:
The Veleti moved into modern Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and adjacent southern areas from the south in the course of the 6th-7th centuries, assimilating the remaining Germanic population and West Slav tribes that had previously moved into that area from the east.
See...we were there first! :)
See...we were there first! :)
How do you know that you belong to this part of German society?
PS: Now it's more than 200 years actually.....your proof of 1000 years is what?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rola_coat_of_arms
My father has two small items from XI century which are in our family from centuries. I will teach my son history of my clan (back to XI century) as my father have done with me. I have some documents from the past (not from XI century).
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11833
21 Nov 2008 / #399
You know you can tell me alot and this coat of arms means nothing to me but most importantly what has that to do with Kopernikus???
Apropos about your link:
I wonder what else of your family is from Germany, stems from german stock! :)
Apropos about your link:
""Szlachta" derives from the Old German word "slahta" (now "(Adels) Geschlecht", "(noble) family"), much as many other Polish words pertaining to the nobility derive from German words - e.g., the Polish "rycerz" ("knight", cognate of the German "Ritter") and the Polish "herb" ("coat of arms", from the German "Erbe", "heritage").
Poles of the 17th century assumed that "szlachta" was from the German "schlachten" ("to slaughter" or "to butcher"); also suggestive is the German "Schlacht" ("battle")."
Poles of the 17th century assumed that "szlachta" was from the German "schlachten" ("to slaughter" or "to butcher"); also suggestive is the German "Schlacht" ("battle")."
I wonder what else of your family is from Germany, stems from german stock! :)
I wonder what else of your family is from Germany, stems from german stock! :)
" The generic Polish term for a coat of arms, herb, dates from the early 15thcentury, originating as a translation of the Czech erb, which in turn came from the German Erbe - heritage." We had kinghts before 15th century ...:)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cedynia
"The Battle at Cedynia (also Cidini, Cydyna, Ceden, Cedin, Zehden) occurred on 24 June 972 during the rule of Duke Mieszko I, the first Christian ruler of the Polans (later Poland). There was a war raging over the western border of the young country, because Mieszko wanted to capture the lightly defended and economically important estuary of the Oder River, in order to secure influence in Pommerania. "
You know you can tell me alot and this coat of arms means nothing to me but most importantly what has that to do with Kopernikus???
I have name with -ski and I am not German I am from original branch of this clan.
Going back to Kopernik you choose Polish citizen pick on him and claim him to be German, you change his name and tell us lets share him because ... I don't see the reason to do it. I don't understnd why Poles should do it, some people in Poland have this name (more than in Germany) now somebody tells us to share him. Why? Maybe we should label citizens "25% German, 50% Lithuanian etc." Even they don't know about their 12,5% of lets say Czech blood.
It is stupid and Germans wouldn't like to do so when it comes to them.
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11833
21 Nov 2008 / #401
I don't see the reason to do it.
Well....that's you Luki! But then....your "reality" differs from us.
You have NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING to show that Kopernikus was polish but you chose to ignore that(Watzenrode family, using only german and latin, fighting for the prussian bund, member of the Preußischer Landtage etc)...well...it isn't going to change the truth!
You won't make a "Mikolaj Kopernik" out of a born "Nikolaus Koppernigk" face it!
And as Harry said...you are going even to lose Chopin if you go only by names...that's your logic Luki! No Kopernikus, no Chopin...not much to show off for Poland!
Harry
21 Nov 2008 / #402
Going back to Kopernik you choose Polish citizen pick on him and claim him to be German, you change his name and tell us lets share him
Copernicus was very simply not a Polish citizen. He may well have been a subject of the Crown of the Polish Kingdom but he was not a Polish citizen. End of story.
Why do some Poles think that when they are in a hole the best way to get out is to keep digging until they reach Australia?
You have NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING to show that Kopernikus was polish but you chose to ignore that (Watzenrode family, using only german and latin, fighting for the prussian bund, member of the Preußischer Landtage etc)...well...it isn't going to change the truth!
His father was from Kraków and imagine yourself that it was Polish city. As to some Prussians and their nationality.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanization
Oletzko County was a historic East Prussian county with its capital at Oletzko. The county was populated by Mazurs, a Polish ethnic group. In the process of Germanisation, the proportion of Polish-speaking people declined steadily:
1818 - over 90% of population
1852 - 65%
1861 - 58%
1890 - 46%
1900 - 33.5% (German census)
1818 - over 90% of population
1852 - 65%
1861 - 58%
1890 - 46%
1900 - 33.5% (German census)
So it seems that the above article about Veleti says that the Wends absorbed the earlier German tribes in the Mecklenburg/Vorpommern area, and then years later, new Germans came in, and absorbed the Wends who were already mixed with some Germanic peoples. I am sure that further east there was a dash or two of ancient Baltic Prus, pagan tribes, who were assimilated with a sprinkle of Danish and Scottish. Ooops. Forgot the Dutch. Well, it seems the mix is still more Saxon than anything.
In all fairness to Prince, however, he has a point. Not so much with Copernicus as with the Mecklenburg/Vorommern area. The Wends broke into lots of groups and at some point, Kashubs were also classified as Wends.
In my genealogical studies, I ran across information written by an ethnic German pre-WWI that the ethnic Germans who moved into the Włocławek area were orignally from Pommern. More recent researchers use the exact same map and call those Germans Pommeranian, but the original researcher said they were Kashubs and because they wished to obscure their partly Slavic background, they favored the term Pommeranian rather than Kashubian. The eastern Kashubs are the same ethnic group but stayed Catholic, and identified with Poland (and still live in Poland). The western Kashubs were expelled because they believed themselves to be German and were Lutheran. But they are identical really. So, it just shows that your idenity is more than genetics, but a matter of culture and who you believe you are.
But, if I am correct, in Copernicus day, the peasants were not aware of identity the way we are today, and the upper classes such as Copernicus and his family viewd the noble classes as who they were. Polish nobles and Prussian nobles, hunted and fished together on their large manors. They had their alligances to each other i.e., Royal Prussia to the Polish King. Yet, it had little to do with what nationalty they were. Just who held the bigger fief above them and who they did fealty to.
So again, it appears Copernicus was Polish in allegiance, but German in culture and of mixed genetics. As in the beginning of the thread. Share him. He belongs to the world not one nationality.
In all fairness to Prince, however, he has a point. Not so much with Copernicus as with the Mecklenburg/Vorommern area. The Wends broke into lots of groups and at some point, Kashubs were also classified as Wends.
In my genealogical studies, I ran across information written by an ethnic German pre-WWI that the ethnic Germans who moved into the Włocławek area were orignally from Pommern. More recent researchers use the exact same map and call those Germans Pommeranian, but the original researcher said they were Kashubs and because they wished to obscure their partly Slavic background, they favored the term Pommeranian rather than Kashubian. The eastern Kashubs are the same ethnic group but stayed Catholic, and identified with Poland (and still live in Poland). The western Kashubs were expelled because they believed themselves to be German and were Lutheran. But they are identical really. So, it just shows that your idenity is more than genetics, but a matter of culture and who you believe you are.
But, if I am correct, in Copernicus day, the peasants were not aware of identity the way we are today, and the upper classes such as Copernicus and his family viewd the noble classes as who they were. Polish nobles and Prussian nobles, hunted and fished together on their large manors. They had their alligances to each other i.e., Royal Prussia to the Polish King. Yet, it had little to do with what nationalty they were. Just who held the bigger fief above them and who they did fealty to.
So again, it appears Copernicus was Polish in allegiance, but German in culture and of mixed genetics. As in the beginning of the thread. Share him. He belongs to the world not one nationality.
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11833
21 Nov 2008 / #405
Where do you find polish allegiance? But I agree with the rest....
That was Kopernikus' (and his uncle Lukas Watzenrodes) proven allegiance to as far as I know:
That was Kopernikus' (and his uncle Lukas Watzenrodes) proven allegiance to as far as I know:
The Prussian Confederation or Alliance against Lordship (German: Preußischer Bund) was an organization formed on 21 February 1440 by a group of 53 gentry and clergy and 19 Prussian cities, under the leadership of the Hanseatic cities of Danzig (Gdansk), Elbing (Elblag), and Thorn (Torun).
I'll settle with that! Two out of three ain't bad. :-)
By allegiance I meant that since the land where he was born, Royal Prussia was inhabited by a majority of Germans, but had recently come under the rulership of the Polish King he was a loyal citizen.
Yet, as you say...he was very involved with Prussian affairs. Fighting the Teutonic Knights, because of taxation.
By allegiance I meant that since the land where he was born, Royal Prussia was inhabited by a majority of Germans, but had recently come under the rulership of the Polish King he was a loyal citizen.
Yet, as you say...he was very involved with Prussian affairs. Fighting the Teutonic Knights, because of taxation.
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11833
21 Nov 2008 / #407
I'll settle with that! Two out of three ain't bad. :-)
That's my Softie...:)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monastic_state_of_the_Teutonic_Knights
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11833
21 Nov 2008 / #409
Well:
Well???
Look at Thorn, fully in german colors!
Look at Thorn, fully in german colors!
His father moved form Kraków. He was fighting on this side.
IT wasn't only about taxes. I know one thing he has choosen good side. People with his name live in Poland (Kraków).
Your version about some movemnts in Prussia look stange:
The Lizard Union or Lizard League (German: Eidechsenbund; Polish: Związek Jaszczurczy) was an organization of Prussian nobles and knights established in Culmerland (Chełmno Land) in 1397. Its declared goal was to combat lawlessness, although it discreetly sought the transfer of Culmerland from the Teutonic Knights to Poland.
The union was founded by Nicholas von Renys, John of Pulkow, Frederick of Kitnow, and Nicholas of Kitnow. It was named after its emblem, a lizard (eyne eydechse), and expanded its influence to other provinces. During the Battle of Grunwald in 1410, Nicholas von Renys carried the banner of the Culmerland troops for the Teutonic Order.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizard_Union_(medieval)
In my opinion eastern Germany (if we use the same key as BB) and people with this origin should be something beetwen Poland and Germany and now eastern Germans try to be more German than they are in terms you use to define natonality.
Oh my Prince. Are you saying you wish to have Prussia between Germany and Poland again? LOL
Lets stay where we are. Germans form the east voting on anit-Polish nationalists look strange.
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11833
21 Nov 2008 / #413
Oh my Prince. Are you saying you wish to have Prussia between Germany and Poland again? LOL
:):):)
His father moved form Kraków.
Meaning?
Kraków was a member of the Hanseatic league and many craftsmen settled there, established businesses and formed craftsmen's guilds. City Law, including guilds' depictions and descriptions, were recorded in the German language Balthasar Behem Codex. This codex is now featured at the Jagiellonian library.
In 1475 delegates of the elector George the Rich of Bavaria came to Kraków to negotiate the marriage of Hedwig, the daughter of King Casimir IV Jagiello to George the Rich. Hedwig traveled for two months to Landshut in Bavaria, where an elaborate marriage celebration, the Landshut Wedding (Landshuter Hochzeit 1475) took place in St. Martin's church (Landshut).
In 1475 delegates of the elector George the Rich of Bavaria came to Kraków to negotiate the marriage of Hedwig, the daughter of King Casimir IV Jagiello to George the Rich. Hedwig traveled for two months to Landshut in Bavaria, where an elaborate marriage celebration, the Landshut Wedding (Landshuter Hochzeit 1475) took place in St. Martin's church (Landshut).
He was fighting on this side.
IT wasn't only about taxes,...
IT wasn't only about taxes,...
What else?
Show me some proof that the prussian confederation was about polish independence or polish freedom or polish whatever...
I don't know if he was full Slavic Pole or Pole with mixed origin...
....or polish at all! :)
(His name was Nikolaus Koppernigk too btw, not "Mikolaj" or another polish aequivalent)
As I've said Kraków was German town :)
You see Bratwurs in Poland we know why some people could stay in Poland and some not. It wasn't protestant/catholic issue. At the end of WWII some people were hiden when Russians were looking for Germans ... because they were Poles. I think that your family was thinking in way you do. That is why you live where you live ... in your beautiful Germany :)
Children were selected for "racially valuable traits" before being shipped to Germany.[14] Many Nazis were astounded at the number of Polish children found to exhibit "Nordic" traits, but assumed that all such children were genuinely German children, who had been Polonized; Hans Frank summoned up such views when he declared, "When we see a blue-eyed child we are surprised that she is speaking Polish."[/b]
You see Bratwurs in Poland we know why some people could stay in Poland and some not. It wasn't protestant/catholic issue. At the end of WWII some people were hiden when Russians were looking for Germans ... because they were Poles. I think that your family was thinking in way you do. That is why you live where you live ... in your beautiful Germany :)
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11833
21 Nov 2008 / #415
As I've said Kraków was German town :)
So...when his papa was german, his mama was german, Nikolaus grew up with german and latin, later with his uncle, the german bishop Lukas Watzenrode, when Nikolaus fighted on behalf of the Preußischer Bund and made policy in the Preußische Landtag, studied and wrote in german and latin....what again makes him polish???
hehehe :)
moikrewni.pl/mapa/kompletny/kopernik.html
Polish name :) Koper in Polish means dill. :) He has been fighting on Polish side. that makes him Polish. German versions of this name don't exist in reality.
moikrewni.pl/mapa/kompletny/kopernik.html
Polish name :) Koper in Polish means dill. :) He has been fighting on Polish side. that makes him Polish. German versions of this name don't exist in reality.
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11833
21 Nov 2008 / #417
Whoa....do you want to kill your adversaries through boredom???
His family was Koppernigk (someone who works with Copper), not dill...
Well, in WWII half of the world fighted on the same side as the Poles...Russians for example, does that made them to Poles???
And btw. he wasn't fighting on polish behalf, only that some Poles and some Prussians shared the same disgust with the Teutonic Orders taxation policy - led by an ex-Order man on top!
Firstly you have no proof and secondly this logic would make your other celebrity, Chopin, a french, do you really want that???
Polish name :) Koper in Polish means dill. :)
His family was Koppernigk (someone who works with Copper), not dill...
He has been fighting on Polish side against Germans :) that makes him Polish.
Well, in WWII half of the world fighted on the same side as the Poles...Russians for example, does that made them to Poles???
And btw. he wasn't fighting on polish behalf, only that some Poles and some Prussians shared the same disgust with the Teutonic Orders taxation policy - led by an ex-Order man on top!
German versions of this name don't exist in reality.
Firstly you have no proof and secondly this logic would make your other celebrity, Chopin, a french, do you really want that???
Well, in WWII half of the world fighted on the same side as the Poles...Russians for example
Not to weigh on the "Polish or German" issue, but the example doesn't apply. Russians did not fight on the same side as Poles. Russians fought on the same side as themselves. Any benefits for Poles were a side effect. Their war effort had nothing to do with fighting with or for Poles. The shortest road to Berlin simply lead through Poland. Just a short years before, Russians and Germans, were drafting plans to erase Poland from maps and to annihilate the Polish nation.
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11833
21 Nov 2008 / #419
Okay...maybe a bad example. Another one....Great Britain fighted on the side of the Poles...did this make the English, the Welsh or the Scots polish???
Did they lose their vowels overnight, preferring Kielbasa to Fish 'n Chips, dancing Mazurka and liking Vodka???
Did they lose their vowels overnight, preferring Kielbasa to Fish 'n Chips, dancing Mazurka and liking Vodka???
Koper
You know we have many astronomers (google this names):
Franciszek Armiński
Albert Brudzewski
Tadeusz Banachiewicz
Władysław Dziewulski
Jan Gadomski
Felicjan Kępiński
Mikołaj Kopernik
Marian Albertovich Kowalski
Kazimierz Kordylewski
Stanisław Lubieniecki
Bohdan Paczyński
Marcin Poczobutt-Odlanicki
Alexius Sylvius Polonus
Adam Prazmowski
Konrad Rudnicki
Jan Śniadecki
Wiesław Wiśniewski
Aleksander Wolszczan
but I don't see the reason to make Kopernik German if he was loyal Polish citizen with father from Kraków you claim him to be German but it is interesting (if you talk about Slavs and ancient Germanic people look where Slavs live in Lusatia and Bayern and check Kopernik name in this regions)
Something for you: Przemówienie ministra Józefa Becka w sejmie 5.05.1939
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Józef_Beck
Tell me why so many (in your terms) Germans prefere to be Poles than the Germans ?
You know we have many astronomers (google this names):
Franciszek Armiński
Albert Brudzewski
Tadeusz Banachiewicz
Władysław Dziewulski
Jan Gadomski
Felicjan Kępiński
Mikołaj Kopernik
Marian Albertovich Kowalski
Kazimierz Kordylewski
Stanisław Lubieniecki
Bohdan Paczyński
Marcin Poczobutt-Odlanicki
Alexius Sylvius Polonus
Adam Prazmowski
Konrad Rudnicki
Jan Śniadecki
Wiesław Wiśniewski
Aleksander Wolszczan
but I don't see the reason to make Kopernik German if he was loyal Polish citizen with father from Kraków you claim him to be German but it is interesting (if you talk about Slavs and ancient Germanic people look where Slavs live in Lusatia and Bayern and check Kopernik name in this regions)
Something for you: Przemówienie ministra Józefa Becka w sejmie 5.05.1939
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Józef_Beck
Beck famously voiced his refusal of German demands in a speech on May 5, 1939, less than four months before Adolf Hitler's military attack on Poland:
"Peace is a precious and a desirable thing. Our generation, bloodied in wars, certainly deserves peace. But peace, like almost all things of this world, has its price, a high but a measurable one.We in Poland do not know the concept of peace at any price. There is only one thing in the lives of men, nations and countries that is without price. That thing is honor."
"Peace is a precious and a desirable thing. Our generation, bloodied in wars, certainly deserves peace. But peace, like almost all things of this world, has its price, a high but a measurable one.We in Poland do not know the concept of peace at any price. There is only one thing in the lives of men, nations and countries that is without price. That thing is honor."
Tell me why so many (in your terms) Germans prefere to be Poles than the Germans ?