Facts stay facts. So, why is this such a contested matter? Do u believe in Al Qaeda BB?
GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE!
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11833
9 Nov 2008 / #332
So, why is this such a contested matter?
Poles!
:)
Do u believe in Al Qaeda BB?
Has that become a matter of believe now?
I think this terror organization is for real...how strong the danger
is today I have no idea though!
Some people have doubts over its existence.
Poles, LOL, that was a funny reply BB
Poles, LOL, that was a funny reply BB
Gash seriously they are not going to germanize the name, they are going to latinize it...
German: Kopernikus
Polish: Kopernik
Latin: Copernicus
Im out...
German: Kopernikus
Polish: Kopernik
Latin: Copernicus
Im out...
GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)!!! OUTRAGE!!!
Outrageous indeed. How does one Germanize a dead person?
Did they exhume him for the purpose?
From his works which made them so famous...it's his signature!
If you are thinking about ""De revolutionibus orbium coelestium" than I would like to check your sorce because to my knowladge the signature only includes his name and the agjective "Thorinensis".
Education and heritage aren't interchangeble with passports...Or else the family of Kopernikus really would had become full Poles once the town Torn changed hands.
But you are aware that Copernicus never studied on a German university?
PS: The whole argument is a bit strange, as we are arguing about the nationality of a person that lived in the XV century using cryteria of a nationality from XXI century. But what ever...
PS: The whole argument is a bit strange, as we are arguing about the nationality of a person that lived in the XV century using criteria of a nationality from XXI century. But what ever...
Bratwurst is using criteria from WWII not 21st century and even if we take WWII criteria ... he is not right
Foreigner4 12 | 1768
10 Nov 2008 / #338
Anyway, time to yell "To arms, Poles!"
I believe the term to describe your arguments is "hogwash."
koperni-whatever being Polish, German or both is NOT the make or break point for someone to actually make a difference in their life or another's. If the nationality of a long, long, deceased mathematician and astronomer is the make or break point for someone's genius being stimulated then it's safe to say things have got to a very sorry state indeed. But kudos on trying to tie in non relevant issues to whatever it was you were on about.
that is all.
People look at this issue from a biased perspective of our times. At that times there was no developed concept of nationality, while Copernicus was just loyal servant of Polish king. Nationality is how you consider yourself and not how others think about you.
i like the way you stated that.
BBoy, could you please provide us with the link to the source of that quote of yours?
Well it's a pity that he is altering the facts. Like for example with the signature of Copernicus on the manuscript of "De revolutionibus".
First of all, the signature "Nicolai Copernick Canonici Varmiensis in Borussia Germaniae mathematici ..." doesn't mean that Copernicus considered himself German like BratwurstBoy wrote here:
It actually means as follows: "of Canon Nicolaus Copernick from Warmia in Prussia of Germany, of the mathematician ...". Hardly the same, innit?
And secondly, this signature was added by a German Jakob Christmann, 60 years after Copernicus death, in 1603.
Here is the quote and the source:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakob_Christmann
So much for BratwurtsBoy's iron proof. Bad, bad Bboy.
PS: Ahh those stubborn Poles, innit? ;)
Bratwurst is using criteria from WWII not 21st century and even if we take WWII criteria ... he is not right
Well it's a pity that he is altering the facts. Like for example with the signature of Copernicus on the manuscript of "De revolutionibus".
First of all, the signature "Nicolai Copernick Canonici Varmiensis in Borussia Germaniae mathematici ..." doesn't mean that Copernicus considered himself German like BratwurstBoy wrote here:
The Copernicus manuscript book states : [...] Nicolaus Copernicus Canon [in] Warmia, in Prussia Germaniae mathematician...(Nicolai Copernick Canonici Varmiensis, in Borussia Germaniae mathematici)
For there isn't a debate anymore actually as Kopernikus himself described his nationality quite clearly! But these stubborn Poles...:)
For there isn't a debate anymore actually as Kopernikus himself described his nationality quite clearly! But these stubborn Poles...:)
It actually means as follows: "of Canon Nicolaus Copernick from Warmia in Prussia of Germany, of the mathematician ...". Hardly the same, innit?
And secondly, this signature was added by a German Jakob Christmann, 60 years after Copernicus death, in 1603.
Here is the quote and the source:
A De revolutionibus manuscript of Nicolaus Copernicus passed[1] via Rheticus to others and was marked on 16 December 1603 by Christmann with Nicolai Copernick Canonici Varmiensis in Borussia Germaniae mathematici ... ("of Canon Nicolaus Copernick from Warmia in Prussia of Germany, of the mathematician ...") [2]. Since 1953 it is located in Cracow in the Jagiellonian library (Signatur: Ms. BJ. 10 000), accessible online.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakob_Christmann
So much for BratwurtsBoy's iron proof. Bad, bad Bboy.
PS: Ahh those stubborn Poles, innit? ;)
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11833
19 Nov 2008 / #340
Only 60 years later??? He should know about it, don't you think? It's nearly the same time frame!
And what is the facts you "stubborn" Poles bring all he time to prove his Polishness?
That he made once a political choice against the Teutonic Order, that's all...as if that
says about his ethnic belonging!
What now? I brought alot of facts (his family, the languages he used)...you have???
Where do you see here polish influence at all!
PS: I had family in Jauer! :)
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaus_Kopernikus
But even this political decision doesn't mean that he is polish. Kopernikus (as his uncle Lukas Watzenrode) were on the side of the Preußischer Bund, who was against the Teutonic Order, it was more of a inner prussian civil war but a war between Germans and Poles!
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preu%C3%9Fischer_Bund
He was even elected into several preußische Landtage...
You still think he was a Pole because....?
And what is the facts you "stubborn" Poles bring all he time to prove his Polishness?
That he made once a political choice against the Teutonic Order, that's all...as if that
says about his ethnic belonging!
What now? I brought alot of facts (his family, the languages he used)...you have???
Where do you see here polish influence at all!
The original autograf, an intermediate between a rough copy and a fair copy, passed after Copernicus' death in 1543 to his friend Tiedemann Giese(1480-1550) and then to Georg Joachim Rheticus (1514-1574), Copernicus only pupil, who had used a copy to publish De revolutionibus in Nuremberg in 1543.
Rheticus took it to Leipzig and Cracow (1554 - 1574) and to Košice (Kaschau) where he died and left it to his pupil and colleague Valentin Otho(1545 - 1603) who took it to Heidelberg were Jakob Christmann (1554-1613) added his remark.
Rheticus took it to Leipzig and Cracow (1554 - 1574) and to Košice (Kaschau) where he died and left it to his pupil and colleague Valentin Otho(1545 - 1603) who took it to Heidelberg were Jakob Christmann (1554-1613) added his remark.
PS: I had family in Jauer! :)
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaus_Kopernikus
But even this political decision doesn't mean that he is polish. Kopernikus (as his uncle Lukas Watzenrode) were on the side of the Preußischer Bund, who was against the Teutonic Order, it was more of a inner prussian civil war but a war between Germans and Poles!
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preu%C3%9Fischer_Bund
He was even elected into several preußische Landtage...
You still think he was a Pole because....?
Hey look at this! They think they have identified the remains of Copernicus via DNA. I wish they'd release his Y-DNA results :-)
From Yahoo:
WARSAW, Poland – Researchers believe they have identified the remains of Nicolaus Copernicus by comparing DNA from a skeleton they have found with that of hair retrieved from one of the 16th-century astronomer's books.
Jerzy Gassowski, an academic at an archaeology school in Poland, also says facial reconstruction of the skull his team found buried in a cathedral in Poland closely resembles existing portraits of Copernicus, whose theories identified the Sun, not the Earth, as the center of the universe.
Gassowski and Marie Allen, a Swedish DNA expert, told reporters about their findings in Warsaw on Thursday.
Allen said DNA from the bones and teeth matches that of hair found in a book the Polish astronomer owned. It is in a library at Sweden's Uppsala University.
From Yahoo:
WARSAW, Poland – Researchers believe they have identified the remains of Nicolaus Copernicus by comparing DNA from a skeleton they have found with that of hair retrieved from one of the 16th-century astronomer's books.
Jerzy Gassowski, an academic at an archaeology school in Poland, also says facial reconstruction of the skull his team found buried in a cathedral in Poland closely resembles existing portraits of Copernicus, whose theories identified the Sun, not the Earth, as the center of the universe.
Gassowski and Marie Allen, a Swedish DNA expert, told reporters about their findings in Warsaw on Thursday.
Allen said DNA from the bones and teeth matches that of hair found in a book the Polish astronomer owned. It is in a library at Sweden's Uppsala University.
Polish Power
Kopernik is Polish and will always be get it thro your thick sculls people!!!!!!
Kopernik is Polish and will always be get it thro your thick sculls people!!!!!!
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11833
20 Nov 2008 / #343
Kopernik is Polish...
Why?
Because he's a true blooded Pole that hates Germans like we all do that's why ass hole or do some history research!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wish they'd release his Y-DNA results
Which Y-DNA you consider to be German which one Polish ?
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11833
20 Nov 2008 / #346
Because he's a true blooded Pole that hates Germans like we all do that's why ass hole or do some history research!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Erm...you came to this groundbreaking discovery how exactly??? :)
Did you read the whole thread already???
Hey I don't need to read it because I’m replying to the thread!!
It would be interesting to determine Copernicus' paternal DNA. The most prevalent Y Haplogroup for Poland and Germany is R1.
Polish males are likely to be R1a, whereas German males are likely to be R1b. There is overlap, however and so the arguments could continue. But whichever he was would certainly give a bit more amunition to the other side.
Remember though....BB did have a lot of facts, and he only wants Germans and Poles to share him.
Polish males are likely to be R1a, whereas German males are likely to be R1b. There is overlap, however and so the arguments could continue. But whichever he was would certainly give a bit more amunition to the other side.
Remember though....BB did have a lot of facts, and he only wants Germans and Poles to share him.
hereas German males are likely to be R1b
39% of them ... maybe they had not faithful wifes or rest of them (61%) are naturalized "Germans" ... :) You must be joking.
Copernicus was Polish.
I have no stake in it either way. I am half Polish and half German. Whatever the results, I am happy because I can claim him! muaauahahaha
:-D
:-D
He was loyal Polish citizens so he was Polish his father even if we take BB point of view was Polish
Whatever facts back up German Copernicus, you cannot argue that he fought and killed his own brothers from the Teutonic Order in order to preserve POLISH state integrity. He was born within Polands boarders, had a father who was Polish, and who spoke Polish as his first language. If this doesn't make him at least in sentiment, Polish, I don't know what does...
This argument will go nowhere, as Germans will always try to look back to his family tree, while Poles will argue that he was born in Poland, lived in Poland for most of his life, and fought against Germans. The fact of the matter is, that he was most likely a mixture of both.
I wonder, if I made some groundbreaking discovery, would Poland, or Greece claim me as their own? Poland because I was born and grew up there? Or Greece because I went to school there?
This argument will go nowhere, as Germans will always try to look back to his family tree, while Poles will argue that he was born in Poland, lived in Poland for most of his life, and fought against Germans. The fact of the matter is, that he was most likely a mixture of both.
I wonder, if I made some groundbreaking discovery, would Poland, or Greece claim me as their own? Poland because I was born and grew up there? Or Greece because I went to school there?
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11833
20 Nov 2008 / #353
Whatever facts back up German Copernicus, you cannot argue that he fought and killed his own brothers from the Teutonic Order in order to preserve POLISH state integrity.
Well..whatever he did he did it with the Preußischer Bund (together with his uncle Lukas Watzenrode).
It was a war between the Preußischer Bund and the Teutonic Order about money and taxes mostly...
He was born in a town which was some years back german and was still Hansestadt, the city changed hands, the population didn't...
But you know all the facts as I do....let's share him!
I wonder, if I made some groundbreaking discovery, would Poland, or Greece claim me as their own? Poland because I was born and grew up there? Or Greece because I went to school there?
I thought you were Pole???
Hell, I could even be German for all I know!
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11833
20 Nov 2008 / #355
Yeah...come over! :)
And having been born in Poland for three hundred years, my ethnic Germans were loyal Polish citizens, too. But they were still ethnically German.
My Polish ancestors were citizens of Germany at the time they were born. And so they are listed as Germans when they came to America.
So, what country you are a citizen of proves little of what ethnic lines you have, but can reflect what country receives your loyalty.
From what I read, I honestly believe that Copernicus had a Polish father who married a German lady. So, he's really ethnically half and half, lived in Royal Prussia which was subject to Poland. I doubt he cared one way or another.
And the idea of sharing him really is best. :-)
My Polish ancestors were citizens of Germany at the time they were born. And so they are listed as Germans when they came to America.
So, what country you are a citizen of proves little of what ethnic lines you have, but can reflect what country receives your loyalty.
From what I read, I honestly believe that Copernicus had a Polish father who married a German lady. So, he's really ethnically half and half, lived in Royal Prussia which was subject to Poland. I doubt he cared one way or another.
And the idea of sharing him really is best. :-)
Softsong bambers in Poznań (some immigrants form Bamberg) were asked by Prussians about their ethnic group and they answered "Polish" so they had the same problems as other Polish citizens with Prussians... they were persecuted in result of their ethnic backgroud they were expeled form their houses by Germans they had problem in offices they couldn't work in some proffesions ... like the Poles because they were Poles . I don't think that they would like to be shared. Copernicus was Polish and I wouldn't be so sure about his mother Y-DNA :)
P.S. To show how complicated it can be....after she was living in the United States of America, my German grandmother listed herself as a Polish speaker in one census, and in a different census she listed herself as a German speaker.
She actually was quite fluent in Polish, Low German, High German and knew some Yiddish.
Prince, just wondering what are bambers? Ethnically different people who identified with Poland?
I do know that that happened all the time. People living in a country and identifying heart and soul where they reside. Kasubians being a case in point. Same ethnicity and one half identified with Germany and were deported and the other half identified with Poland. Moreorless.
Well, one thing is for certain. It is neat to talk about. There are lots of things to learn. But, I doubt we solve it. This is one of those things that has been debated a long time.
Oops! Either I failed to read it or you edited to answer me. Thanks!
She actually was quite fluent in Polish, Low German, High German and knew some Yiddish.
Prince, just wondering what are bambers? Ethnically different people who identified with Poland?
I do know that that happened all the time. People living in a country and identifying heart and soul where they reside. Kasubians being a case in point. Same ethnicity and one half identified with Germany and were deported and the other half identified with Poland. Moreorless.
Well, one thing is for certain. It is neat to talk about. There are lots of things to learn. But, I doubt we solve it. This is one of those things that has been debated a long time.
Oops! Either I failed to read it or you edited to answer me. Thanks!
Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11833
20 Nov 2008 / #359
Our Lukasz is as fact resistent as always....so boring! :(
Why?
Copernicus was Polish
Why?
And the idea of sharing him really is best. :-)
This is a filthy idea ;)