Polish-German Reconcilliation Seminar

Yes my agenda is promotion of Polish interests and better relations with Poland's neighbors. I'm not denying that. Again, Poland didn't have the political clout nor economic power that they did getting out the 90's. The cooperation between Poland, Germany, US, and EU at large - ESPECIALLY the post-commie countries is far far different today than the 90's - when all of Europe east of berlin was getting out of boot of Lenin/Stalin and the USSR he left behind. I may add that Poland DID ask for reparations early in the 90s but didn't have the power to really go after this and they had to ally with whatever chauffeur driven politicians offering them loans, industry, investment, infrastructure, etc - as happens all around the world in developing, post-war, post-independence (meaning just got under the subjugation of a far larger superpower like the rest of the ussr nations declaring independence) nations. Time and people make the events. This is now Poland's time to get this as the situation is ripe for it. If we are wise and use the EU investments given to us in a strategic way, we should also use this unique set of circumstances to reconcile with Germany, and perhaps Ukraine and Russia in time. In those talks, reparations ought to be brought up as Poland is doing now because the time is ripe. I don't want PL to be cut off economically, politicaly, etc from Germany and EU. However, if we're going to go along as friends in the future we have to mind past wrongs and like I said perhaps that will include Poland helping the Germans and Jews who were in PL as well.

It was however not a binding agreement. That was only decided in 2014 and will only count starting 2024. How much each country spends before 2024 doesn't matter. The only reason why the USA brough it up because all that warmongering the ME became to expensive and they suddenly felt like the Europeans did not spend enough on their defence.


Not true, Germany has already increased its' defence budget during the last years and will continue to do so until it reaches 2% by 2024.


Schulz party the SPD is out of government, so what he said during the campaign doesn't matter. The SPD is traditionally Russian-friendly, it was SPD-chancellord Schröder who negotiated North Stream.


Merkel has defended the military build-up during the campaign, although it is highly unpopular in Germany, so there is no reason to believe that she would not stick to it. The budget for next year is already passed and will again see an increase.


Could you please give some more details about this, because I have so far found no information about this. I know that Germany and Poland made a final agreement regarding the border and reparations in two treaties between 1990/91, but I have not read anything about a Polish government seeking reparations afterwars in the same decade.

If anyone lived in PL in the 90's you'd know that the average person was basically poorer than the 70's and 80's as it was a shock to the country to from 2 vastly different systems - socialist/communist/command market to democratic capitalism. The currency was swapped, unemployment super high, and tons of corruption, mafias in the cities, kidnappings of businessmen and extortions, luxury car theft from the west, etc. Income inequality was vast. It was even worse in Russia and Ukraine but Poland, Hungary, Czechy, Romania, etc weren' totally spared neither. While Poles rejoiced they and the rest of E Europe were free, Germany was unified, etc. these post soviet bloc countries were poor. Inflation hit hard, years of chronic under investment, poor development, etc. That's why EU funds and other money was earmarked to bring this up to speed and so everyone can make money on it - again 2/3 of capital and securities in Polish banks today is foreign, only about 1/3 is actually Polish.

Sure i'll find some info on this. To my understanding most of that treaty was regarding surveying lands to sort out a polish german border given the unification, fall of berlin wall, establishing a more formal border, etc. I believe reparations were brought up for ww2 damages but ultimately they for the most part just focused on sorting out a border line of Germany and Poland to form the more exact modern border today.

The issue of reparations was adressed in talks between Kohl and Mazowiecki and an agreement that was intented to be final was reached. There are very good books about this where you can read a lot of details. Hence why the issue of reparations is closed according to every neutral observer you may find.

While I dislike Soviet/Commie ideology, I have respect for it. It is utterly ruthless in a grand chess game sort of way. Stalin was a genius, an evil genius but a genius nonetheless. He saved the USSR through pure ruthless efficiency and even moved all his factories on millions of train box cars past the Urals to save the raw materials and tank factories. It was more important to save the USSR than keeping statistics on dead workers, starved people in Siberia, etc. The soldiers were encouraged to be drunk as hell and rape, steal, and kill everything in sight as they advanced east. They gave 1 soldier a gun, the other the bullets and dead soldiers would pick up guns/bullets from the lines, trenches, etc. Maybe if you were lucky after an hour you had a pepshka with half a clip. Stalin used sacrifice and murder in his establishment of the USSR and military advance to E Berlin in a way a surgeon uses a scalpel to a tumor in a scale quite like no other individual in history. He is arguably the ultimate conqueror of the 20th century and is still celebrated by academics and even citizens who hoist his image in parades (sure offends me a bit but such is free speech - if a commie wants to raise a stalin or whatever poster they can't say sh!t if some redneck raises one of Hitler - who was more a Hollywood druggie who masterfully exploited a situation using propaganda, scapegoating, and extreme violence and genocide.) Hitler I'd argue somewhat had more of a heart than Stalin (with everyone but to Jews of course with whom he was just awful and maniacal - with Poles he actually relented a bit after conquering and many old poles say that the treatment under Nazis was far more preferable to that of Stalin's Red army. - Stalin killed his own people and even own family. Taking a USSR citizens' life was nothing more than stepping on an art to him). They are true masters of asymmetric and now hybrid style warfare. It has since morphed and both the modern right and left have taken ques out of it - as well as Italian/German fascism. Each successive political, economic, social system and construct borrows from preceding ones and influences successive ones.

@Tacitus

Well, that's what is to be decided. and by neutral observers you mean a future jury, court, etc. undoubtedly politics will play a big effect in this. This is what Poles and Germans are preparing for. This issue isn't going away so easily. Too many people have gotten involved. I just hope that PiS and the people involved can keep it up because honestly they've overstretched themselves as it is.

I can hear Kaczyński, PiS and the Daily Mail already screaming that the Fourth Reich is near once the Germans will up their military spending to 3% of GDP. What do you guys want? A peaceful neighbor or the combination of economic and military powerhouse of the past?

@TheOther

Not at all. Were not concerned with germanys military power being greater than ours. In fact we wouldn't mind more military coop. What we don't like is Germany Brussels etc forcing an ideology culture and society that they have for other EU countries esp the eastern euro ones. If they want to have a million migrants from me and Africa that's fine. If they want to have a welfare state fine. If they want to diminish the role of their xhristian culture tradition etc and even want to jail people over non violent opinionated Facebook n twitter posts that's fine too. But don't push that bs on Poland and we won't push our culture belief systems ideology on Germany and those states.

Multiculturalism was supposed to 'emhance' and 'enrich' nations which in many cases it does. Poland's multi kulti system involves 1 mln ukranians and tons of Chechens Indians former USSR citizens and people coming from even Africa turkey Iraq Italy Spain us UK whatever etc to study and work. Yet they want to push their multicultural policies on us which failed them. They say we have to share the burden. Well for one its not our burden, we never asked for this migration and welcomed in people like Merkel did, yet now were expected to share in this 'multicultural' burden or rather blunder of Germany n a few other nations. V4 welcomes people from everywhere who will assimilate work and be a good citizen and asset to pur society. Were not interested in bringing in unknown potentially radical violent extremists to destroy our unique societies.

You fail to understand that Germany restrains itself deliberately when it comes to military power. Their neighbors in the west as well as in the east very much appreciate that, I guarantee you, and it's a large part of what is called reconciliation in Europe. It's not only Poland that needed (or still needs) time to move on. If the Germans really wanted, they would be a nuclear power within half a year. Good that they voluntarily decided not to.

Restrains itself?!?!?!? HAHAHAHAHAH. Just like they 'restrained themselves' from tightening their border. Just like they restrained themselves from doing something about the problems with terrorism, rape, and crime. THEY ARE CUCKED! It's plain and simple. They even have a commie Stalinist statue in the middle of Berlin to commemorate the FALL OF BERLIN BY STALIN. It is a country where citizens polish the statues of the people who conquered them and remove their own symbols so as not to offend any new comers. Now the islamists are finishing what Stalin didn't. They are allowing people from all over to walk over them - including Poles lol. Some fine German men and women are standing up to this insanity but unfortunately not enough. They're more interested in not offending people and arresting individual for thought crimes (i.e. arrests and fines posting non violent opinionated posts on fb or twitter - especially about the migrant 'burden' that Germany is asking Poland to share). Germans even take down crosses so as not to offend Muslims. They bend over backwards for them and yet the Muslims spit on you and your liberal ideas. Instead of being proud about their 2 thousand year history, they remove symbols of their culture and civilization since a cross on a church might offend passing Muslims...

Germany's military is only marginally more powerful than Poland. In all honesty, I'd even put my money on Poland's military over Germany's in a war simply because far too many German men have lost the will to fight and stand up for their country, nation, culture, etc. They've been cuckolded (which is also a fetish that some men enjoy so maybe the reasons are even psychological?)

Also, France and UK would never let an upstart nationalist sort of Germany get its own nukes. For as wealthy as Germany is, their army isn't even close to France and UK. Hell they're closer to Poland despite double the population and a way way wealthier economy.

Not to mention how bad the local Jews have it in places like Germany and France. It's no wonder so many are making Aliyah. Good for them!

The Jews are BEGGING for the government to protect them and their citizens since they have to deal with anti-Semitism which pervades Muslim society - even amongst the more 'civilized' ones. Just look at what happened in France during Palestinian demonstrations... entire neihgborhoods, police stations, cars, all on fire.. people being evacuated, cop cars being shot up and police running away scared, fire fighters cant come in to the put the flames out... nationwide state of cuckolding... I mean nationwide state of emergency...

As much as I talk sh!t about Jews I actually have no problem with them. It's more specifically Zionists, and Jews who have wronged people - not just Poles. (I consider myself an equal opportunity hater hehe. Jews to me are an important part of Poland (regardless of what the very far right parties in PL think) as well as Europe at large and the governments esp in France/Germany/etc are failing to protect their own peaceful, law abiding, tax paying citizens against hordes of foreigners that rape, pillage, and plunder - literally...

In 1999 Germany violated its own constitution which states that German military cannot be used in operations outside NATO territory. It was not approved by the UN Security Council. This was an illegal criminal act of aggression and Germany participated in it.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia

Not a single soldier of Yugoslavia was fighting on NATO member state territory or was a threat.

In Freudian analysis, cuckold fetishism is the eroticization of the fears of infidelity and of failure in the man's competition for procreation and the affection of females. In his book Masochism and the Self, psychologist Roy Baumeister advanced a Self Theory analysis that cuckolding (other forms of sexual masochism) among otherwise mentally healthy people was a form of escapism. According to this theory, cuckold fetishists are relieving themselves of the stress of the burden of their social role and escaping into a] simpler, less-expansive position.

Sounds about right with German society... They've lost the will to fight (Trump's Poland speech) and have simply allowed this strange destructive form of multikultism pushed by shampoo socialists and limousine liberals to almost completely erode their fabulous culture, civilization, etc. People like Bach, Charlemagne, Bismarck, Martin Luther, Gutenberg, Planck, etc must be rolling in their graves knowing how their German culture is being eroded and may even gradually become nearly extinct. Instead of confronting the issues head on, i.e. German women being raped and intervening to prevent it from happening by gangs of young male migrants, they have instead put on their pink sunglasses, silenced the issue, ostracized the fine men and women who are sick of it and want to do something about it via threats, fines, jail, organized and paid NGO's and other groups to promote said multikultism (i.e. antifa). Media doesn't talk about it, the police don't make accurate reports, women are scared to walk around alone, there's non stop stories coming out of refugee camps of staff being beat up and raped, theres women groped in pools and huge amounts on NYE, it's just awful what is happening to them. I wish Poland could even help the fine Germans who want their once wonderful way of life (even up until roughly the past 10 or so years) restore their pride and dignity. But too many Germans have simply lost the will.... you can't help someone that doesn't want to be helped. Germany can accept migrants. It SHOULD accept mirgants and be multicultural and sophisticated. But the way they are going about it is just simply destructive - especially for native Germans citizens - and its not just Germany either sadly. There are fortunately those who don't want to be a part of this. Some are a bit too far xenophobic but nonetheless groups like Pegida, AfD - who did WONDERFULLY in the last elections and is going to be a pain (GOOD!) to Merkel, Identitaires, Golden Dawn, etc and people like Le Pen, Trump, Obran, Duda, etc are making a stand. We are saying our society and culture is great! We welcome people from all walks of life and all corners of the world who wish to work, assimilate, contribute and live with others in peace. But we won't be bullied into changing our values, belief structures, culture, etc.

It's like in any prison around the world. A puny man will be the 'b!tch/cuck/punk/etc' of a larger, more powerful (sometimes not even physically but mentally) man and will give him head and take it up the rear as it is preferable to the violent gang rapes, assaults, stabbings, etc. he would experience without the 'protector.'

Ffs, does anyone actually read these posts?

@Crnogorac3


This is not true. The German constitutional court ruled in 1994 that the Bundeswehr could participate in missions that were included in a system of "mutual collective security " This includes Nato, but also a possible Common European Defence Policy. This is e.g. the reasoning for the Bundeswehr mission in Iraq and elsewhere after France triggered the European defence mechanism after the Paris attacks.


It doesn't have to be for Germany to act, although it certainly helps.

If you are interested, an English translation of the entire ruling is here:

germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/sub_document.cfm?document_id=3720


The ICJ decided otherwise. And frankly, although we know that fears of massacres were exaggerated, the outcome of the intervention has been so overwhelmingly positive for the stability of the Balkans, that this a moot point anyway.


I usually try, but when the first few words are something like "Freudian cuckhold fetishism" I don't bother.

It's just a theory on why so many men have lost the will to fight. I think it's because their ultra liberal multikulti society created so many cucks. But what do I know... sexual or non, they are cucked... if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... well you get the idea...

Germany attacked Serbia WITHOUT the vote of the UN Security Council

Of course It does matter. With 280 tanks Germany couldn't help much in case of conflict even If there was a political will to do so.


Yanks had been covering your asses for nearly 50 years. Once the cold war ended and you got a chain of "buffer states" in the east, Germany stopped giving a damn. That's your "solidarity". US taxpayers keep asking why they should spend their money defending Europe when in the middle of Europe, one of the largest economies in the world with a budget surplus, can't be bothered to do much about it - honestly I can't blame them, I would say the same thing.


SPD is 100% pro-Russian, CDU "only" around 50%, rest ? Some FDP dude said the annexation of Crimea should be officially recognized, commies and nazis ? Likely also pro-Russian.


It's just not happening. Germany is at 1.22% of GDP, we're not in 1933, in order to nearly double military spendings in several years, now many decisions would have to be taken. More air force units ? They would have to start training more young pilots NOW. It's just not happening, just go ask anyone in the military or defence industry. If you don't believe me, just ask at any German military forum.


Huh ? I couldn't care less even If they totally shut down their military.

Facts are:

* Germany is financing Russian military build-up.
* German military is contributing to NATO as little as it is possible.
* They **** off Americans with their pathological military spendings and make them more and more sceptical about the whole concept of NATO.
* A significant part of German political elites are Russian moles undermining any efforts to turn NATO back in what it should be - a collective defence pact.

When they don't need NATO anymore, they decided to make it as soft as it is possible and therefore score some points in Moscow and elsewhere. It would be actually much better If they simply left it.

Besides, I was responding to a guy claiming that "Germany has been such a good ally in NATO and thus made Poland prosperous" (or something along these lines, just go 2 pages back) and I simply proved that it's nonsense as since many many years Germany has been backpedaling on nearly every issue in NATO. As usual, you are quoting things out of context without making much sense.

They can't even control radical Islamists at home!

Germany doesn't invest in military because it doesn't need to. They will continue to do their bare minimum because they know there are numerous buffer states around them. Furthermore, UK and France, a stone throw's away, both have nukes. Imagine if a hypothetical war were to break out between France and Germany. Hitler would've laughed at the French military being superior to the German, yet that's the present situation today.

@Ironside, "should" is relative:-) How much should the Germans pay in compensatory damages?? Almost inestimable, I'd think.

@Lyzko
That's what the lawyers, analysts, negotiators and other experts are for. My main concern is pis being stubborn and demanding an unreasonable amount. This is an opportunity for both sides to address past wrongs, mend fences, and move on and progress together. This isn't meant to guilt trip Germany and I pray pis doesn't turn it inoy that

Couldn't agree with you more.

Best they start at the local level first.
Germany owes Poland huge compensation for the wild Polish bison that Germany shot for no real reason besides it crossed the border into Germany.
A local official ordered hunters to kill the rare animal last month after it crossed over from Poland. "Animals don't know country borders," a conservationist said.

I take it the "EU" only counts for people and not the wild animals.
Do the trigger happy Germs kill the wild birds that fly across the river from Poland too ?
Idiots, true idiots.
May I suggest that the Germs call the Polish officials with a courtesy call next time to come get their property BEFORE they kill it.

Just one more reason Poland needs to build a border wall with Germany to keep Poland's animals in and the Germans animals out.

How strange is it that despite taking in a million unskilled migrants, Germany has a labor shortage. Meanwhile, Poland also to took 1 mln Ukranians to address a labor shortage and unemployment keeps hitting more and more record lows. What's the variable here? Seems like the migrants you take in.

Germany did NOTHING when Russia annexed Crimea. Even Nord Stream 2 went on as planned. And these hypocrites want to talk about 'solidarity' (a favorite word of commies and socialists) well, sorry we must've been absent for international socialist 101 at Lenin University

@johnny reb
They should've asked the hunters to shoot the animals that were crossing the border and pillaging, raping, and plundering instead. So when its a defenseless bison, they'll protect their borders. but not when there's hundreds of thousands of young males from 3rd world countries and God only knows who they really are and what they plan to do. if even just 1% of 1mil were terrorists that's 10,000 terrorists they let in

@Tacitus
Please don't exaggerate Germany's role in Iraq. Just like with Poland, they put a tiny token amount of troops all safely within the wire. The only TRUE European country to really contribute troops to Iraq was the UK. Poland sent in some 200 commandos - who at least had the balls to get out wire, load up a rosomak (the tally's called it the green monster) and were nice enough to send jihadis on their way to having 72 virgins.. we're such a kind people.

I would be highly suspect of such a policy. NATO is overall a good organization. The thought of having numerous armies under Germany's command scares me. Esepcially as they switched national socialism to a quasi modern socialism and are eager to spread their ideology - especially politically via brussels and that often leads to force... The Germans already control an army of unelected EU commissars, EC court officials, numerous EU deputies, etc. It would be like a Yugoslavia/USSR sort of deal with Germany being Serbia/Russia and forcing others to accept their ideology and political control with any smaller state who doesn't agree being attacked to maintain territorial and political integrity.

The usual conspiracy theories, I see.

Also, there are no "unelected" EU commissars, despite of what the Brexit press claims.


Not that Germany is a particulary socialist country by European standards, but I hope you are not one those guys who believe that the Nazis practiced any sort of genuine socialism?

thoughtco.com/was-adolf-hitler-a-socialist-1221367


Don't worry, we are all cuckhuld wimps after all.


Or we just have a group of friendly democratic states pooling their ressources together to get the most of it. Germany was asked by countries like the Czech Republic and Rumania for cooperation, because in times when equipment becomes more and more sophisticated and thus expensive, it becomes more and more difficult for smaller countries to maintain capabilities. The current problem is not that Europe does not spend enough on defence in total, it is simply done way too inefficiently. The Netherlands are highly trained in naval and landing operations, Germany has a lot of experience in tank warfare. So Germany will in the future probably provide tanks while the Netherlands will command Marines.

Nazi = National Socialist. It is technically a leftist ideology. It was a nationalistic form of socialism.


You realize that polls from places like Egypt, Morrocco, Tunisia, Afghanistan, etc show that a significant portion of the population believe that insulting islam should result in death, believe in sharia law, believe in separation of man and woman, are deeply anti-Semitic, and spit on your liberal ideals of being LGBT friendly, tolerant (overly tolerant), pro-feminist, free speech (which ironically is being limited more and more specifically as it pertains to criticizing migrants)


And when exactly is the next round of voting for the president of the EU? Jean Claude Junk is one such example of an unelected commissar.

Is 'The Economist' too pro-Brexit (the best decision the Brits ever made in recent history) for you also?


The Germans who allowed their society and culture to be turned into a peaceful, welcoming society into one fraught with seas of ninja women, crowds of unemployed men near subways, trails of trash and tents wherever they go, innumerable incidents of rape and abuse against women, dozens of terror attacks involving dozens dead and injured (even over a hundred in Paris) - yes those are the cuck wimps I'm referring to. stand up for your women - they're the fairer sex! don't let some ******* grope a woman if she doesn't want and keeps telling him to stop yet he and his buddies continue. you see that and you kick his ass till kingdom come. that's what the poles did when some arabs got too frisky with polish girls on the beach in Gdansk... Thankfully some Germans understand this lunacy and how their culture is being destroyed via multiculturalism - at least this ridiculous socialist form of it. A Harvard professor conducted a decade long study on multiculturalism and you what the conclusion was? It is NOT GOOD. Forced multiculturalism doesn't work and is detrimental to a society.

At least there's hope with the recent underdog AfD's success in the last election. There are fine men and women who aren't naïve to what's going on in W Europe and aren't buying these bogus 'cultural enrichment' programs anymore. If these migrants and all were supposed to 'enrich' European countries, why are the Germans, French, etc so upset at the V4, Austria, Bulgaria, etc for not taking in their share of the 'burden.' These migrants that are coming in aren't enriching the country - they are a burden. Yes there's some wonderful peaceful people - I don't doubt that. But when you say come one come all you're going to get the dregs of society along with normal families. And no one willt ell me that the vast majority of these migrants aren't young low skill uneducated males from the 3rd world.


You mean like NATO?


That happens all over the world. Selling military hardware, training forces, etc is a business and political decision - in some cases more business, in others more political. Poland sells military hardware to freaken Malaysia. Yet Malaysia and Poland aren't like trying to take over the Phillipines or some ****. Poland buys German Leapord tanks too.

Not with Iraq... and in Afghanistan there's around 5k... almost all of whom operate in the safety of northern Afghanistan hence have far less casualties than the Brits and Yanks there. That's the least Germany can do after being given billions to rebuild from the ground up thanks to AMERICA and FDR. Germans are very smart and industrious though so they deserve a healthy economy as they ran their country well in that regard. Politically - esp with the current situation with the migrants - I beg to differ. Germany also gave a lot of hardware, including hundreds of millions of dollars of nuke capable submarines to Israel. They even provided technical instruments along with France like centrifuges. Trump called you guys out for being cheapskates on your NATO defense commitment - like many other NATO nations. On the other hand, Poland, Greece, and a few others were recognized and complemented for their fair financial contribution. Since Trump took office, money from the NATO countries, especially from Germany came pouring in. Its like that cheap friend when you get a pizza for 3 people for $20 bucks plus a tip and your buddy only puts in a $5.

Where Germans don't rule militarily in NATO and EU, they definitely do politically and economically. That's why Britain left. They were sick of taking orders from the Germans and Brussels who have favored Germany and her politicians for a long long time. You'd be blind not to see that. Of course there's MEP from all over, but nonetheless the top figures tend to lean towards Germany and Merkel.

a. Nic o nas bez nas (this was a decision taken without the consultation of most other countries or her own population for that matter). asking for help after the fact is disingenuous

b. no muslim minority in any European country contributes more to the country in taxes and economic activity than it receives in services of various kinds, why should anyone expect the merkeljugend to be any different?

Except perhaps Poland - where the 30k some Tatars fought and died for Poland since the Commonwealth - even against the Turkish invades they sided with Poland rather than be a 5th column. They look Polish, speak Polish, act Polish in all manners except they go to a mosque instead of a church.


You don't find it at all hypocritical that Israel has a secret nuclear weapons program, and has had such a program for decades, which has NEVER been inspected by the UN, IAEA, or any relevant agency? Meanwhile, Iran who has complied with the nuke Obama deal and has had more IAEA inspections than any other nuclear power and found to be mostly compliant is constantly chastised for their program?