Polish-German Reconcilliation Seminar

Oy vey !


Why is that your concern ? Are you German ?


Germany might be a strong partner 20 years ago. Germany 2017 isn't. In NATO they are basically a Russian mole, If **** hits the fan we can count on them... blocking decisions regarding any deployment of forces. In EU, they don't even hide anymore that it's a tool they use to control Europe. What's worse, their vision of Europe is totally not in line with our national interests.

If you don't agree with that, name just 3 important cases where Polish national interests are in line with a German "vision".

But we only need to mention one - The opening of German and other EU markets free from all restrictions, to Polish businesses. That is the very basis of Polands current boom and the dramatic rise in living standards that has accompanied it.

ROFL!!!! Germany GAINED WAY MORE when Poland joined EU. They gave us money AT INTEREST (we will have to pay that in future), they got 38 million consumer market and most importantly they got CHEAP LABOUR where they took an advantage of when German firms started to manufacture goods in Poland decreasing the cost of manufacture and therefore maximizing the gains.

Only an idiot thinks that Poland got more from EU than Germans from Poland.

PS. HUUUUGE chunk of EU donations come back to Germany (German companies in Poland get a LOT of it).

Even if that was true (which is very questionable), Poland benefited too. A perfect example where both interests aligned.


Completely ridiculous, Germany under Merkel has been the only European adversary that Putin took seriously in the last 3 years.

Without Germany there would have been no coordinated European response to the Russian agression in the Ukraine.

Without Germany the sanctions regime would already have been lifted at the insistance of countries like Italy.

Without Merkel brokering the Minsk II peace agreement, the Ukraine would already have collapsed.

Germany simply draws the line at dangerous and senseless provocations. But no doubt history will acknowledge Merkel as Putin's most skilled and effective opponent.

All nonsense but there are plenty of separate EU threads.

Each of your clueless statements is easily rebutted.

There is no interest payable on those EU funds

Germany got a 38 million market, Poland got an 80 million market with three times the spending power.

Yes Poland has a cheap labor force - but EU membership has meant that it is now far more skilled than it was in 2004, again the mutual benefits of free trade.

Some of those grants might go to German companies, plenty more goes to Polish businesses. In any case those German own businesses are employing Poles, paying Social Security, paying taxes, supporting the zloty, and most of all significantly modernising the manufacturing capacity of the country.

I said "Only an idiot(...)"

PS. I love Leftard's Tears. Those are my fuel.

@Dirk diggler, historically, you're quite right. Nonetheless, this surely doesn't justify Germany's eternal "debt" to Poland now, does it?

Frankly, I feel Poland's merely seeking publicity, that's all. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, Merkel's gov't. decides to pay out millions, even billions to Poland, for "humanity's sake". Why not trillions then? Once more, WHERE DOES IT BLOODY END???! Furthermore, does this mean Poland will ever be completely satisfied either?

It ends here and NOW!!! With no German, Russian and EU influence!!!! Poland NOW is a sovereign country. IT ENDS NOW!!!

ha ha ha
Nord Strem dwa/2
this is how much Merkel is opposed to Putin

The "European response" is a joke anyway and meanwhile Germany is implementing strategic deals with Russia.

Besides, Ukraine is not a NATO issue. NATO is about collective defence and a friggin Canada is more active on the NATO's eastern flank than Germany is. Let's be honest, If Russian tanks start rolling into Estonia, the German voice will be: "let's wait, we can't be provocative, we need dialogue !" - generally obstruction of any action. Therefore German involvement in NATO is less than zero.


The value of Poland's trade with the rest of EU is at ~300 billion EUR annually. It works both way and any politician trying to block it would be quickly finished off by their own business circles. Therefore it has nothing to do with being nice to Germans or something. It's just business for them. So If that's all you have, you've got nothing.


Asked a Jew...

Google "Resolute Response Mission" for a start...

@TheOther


Or "NATO Enhanced Forward Presence", and Lithuania....

@NoToForeigners

Actually there's Europeans, latinos, Africans, n people from all over. North America basically a European colony that split off and went its own way. The mayans and natives were here even before and in latam their culture survives n the rest of the world gradually came over in the past 200+ years. Hell one of the purposes of Australia an overseas penal colony, port, etc.


Post 90's is when Poland truly became prosperous. That is of our own doing - our own rebuilding after the Nazis and Soviets destroyed it killed millions, interned, raped, etc. It was pure stagnation and no free market save for illegal/gray ones for 50 years. Not to mention you had to bribe party members to be able to run a business in peace.


Lawyers, historians, parliamentarians, international affair specialist, etc. Yes it is around that number just on the Polish side with quite a few devoted to it on the German as well.

Of course not. I believe we should make a deal with a relatively small payment (save maybe $5-$10bil or whatever both sides can negotiate) which isn't that much in the grand scheme of things. The money would come in some say some cash installments and a good bit a loan with interest paid to Germany, foundations for victims, , trade partnerships, etc. favorable for the countries in the future. In return, Poland could help find living members since as you can imagine the paperwork is all messed up and bureaucracy poor, they can find a way to find descendants on both sides - Poles and Jews who have been fighting claims for a long time and German personal property acquired without appropriation from Germans that were forced out - esp from places like Wroclaw and such. I would recommend a statute of limitations where no further money, loans, investment capital, etc can be asked for within say 2 years to maybe clear up some lil discrepancies but after 2 years that's it - roughly up to the run-up. After that no democratically elected Polish government with results judged to be fair by modern internationally accepted standards could come to the Germany people and ask for more money after WW2. If successful, we could do this with our southern neighbor Ukraine as well to quash any issues with Volhynia, whatever Poles did to Ukranians, etc. during WW2.

***meant ask the German people for any more from WW2.. Hell if this works with German, possibly Ukraine we could even do this with Russia to ease up some tensions along the borders. However, the American and EU establishment (as well as the Russian one) don't want a cool down of military conflict with Nato vs Russia and its entente. With Polish, German and Ukrainian reparations, reconcillation, and alliances between the 3 is much easier at this moment and would be a good move for the future.

So the 1000 lawyers think the repararions should be one trillion - but you are willing to settle for 1 percent of that amount ? Your 10 bilion comes to about 250 euros a head. Still I should be able to get a new fridge with that as i saw a whirlpool today for 899 zloty so i am nów converted to this brillant idea.

Do you honestly think the Poles rebuilt their economy in their own, with no outside help ? Compare it to Serbia or Ukraine, both outside the EU - I doubt you have visited either of them but you can read up on it. I don't know if you were in Eastern Europe in the 90s but there was plenty of support from Germany, the US and other mature democracies.

And do you honestly think that the Germans rebuilt their economy without the Marshall Plan?

@cms

I said whatever the amount they negotiate it. 1% of a GDP cash injection

@Lyzko
The WEST Germans received marshall plan money - along with denazification, making the german citizens go to death camps to see what happened in their land, forced labor but yes money helped as Berlin and other cities were also totally obliterated. Perhaps rightfully so but nonetheless a good amount of Germans opposed Hitler. The average office cleark or mechanic joined to get a job perhaps doing papers or changing tracks on tanks. **** happens. With East Germany and everything east of it it was a way different story. Stalin didn't want money - he wanted millions of laborers and land. Gradually Germans paid out, became friends with w europe - and look now they basically lead the post WW2 order lol. However they are now cucked but that's another topic. Stalin's decision was actually a smarter and much more strategic and ruthless for the future - esp having a lil colony so closer to NATO's heart. He knew there'd be confrontation between the ideologies esp the north America and Europe vs Russia, China, its lands of the world for a long time to come. Stalin refused for any country under his control to receive western aid. He wanted German prisoners caught and still living there to be used as forced labor for like 5-10+ years... sometimes longer and perhaps you starved if you couldn't hack it..that and land... he didn't care much for western money himself esp in this context.. he put up with corruption but his game was more power

The trillion is obviously a pie in the sky number. Idk what it'll be settled for honestly if its 1% or whatever. Go ask a Pole or anyone for that matter if he'd or she'd want a free whirpool lol even to perhaps even use as a machine to make foreign corporations money - in this case German ones so why not Siemens for example? But honestly it wouldn't be Polish people like just being given free stuff unless its Germans, Poles, Jews, etc on both sides who perhaps lost property, houses, lives, severe damages, (there's some jewish guys who emigrated since and have a ton of problems getting property taken during ww2 in Poland and fighting it out with the courts not to much avail - im sure there's tons of more people doing this. even we lost like a lil house and barn in lwow but like i said one thing at a time..) etc. and the rest to be used in a democratic capitalist way to enrich both countries via trade deal, investments, employment, etc. Germany and PL both get tax money, people are employed, EU funds were used wisely. Look at all the German, Dutch, British, US etc companies in Poland. Much of the money went to infrastructure which countries had built even during colonization periods. The Brits especially built roads schools hospitals etc in lands they colonized. Its ultimately how the country's people use it. Other countries are also given massive aid and their country is a shithole for that amongst other outside factors. Greece received tons of money even outside of EU funds and they blew it all on stadiums and bullshit. This was even before the migrant crisis which only further exacerbated it. Only about 1/3 of the capital in Polish banks that's sitting as cash and securities is actually polish owned - rest is foreign

Do not compare a country that was satanized in the media, bombarded and ultimately occupied with the Ukrops, who from the beginning had full American support.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia

Our army in '99 neither kneeled nor was kissing the American flag even though we were alone against the world's greatest superpower.

Give me a break. Given that Germany is the largest European NATO member and that this area is just next door, that involvement is minimal. Besides, in case of troubles they would be either quickly withdrawn or stay in the barracks.

Germany buying more and more oil and gas from Russia is financing their military build-up. That's the real problem. Additionally, spending on military much below agreed minimal share of GDP, Germany is pissing off America. I can't blame them. They need to spend extra to defend Europe while many in Europe keep their spendings below minimum. Keeping them in Europe is critical for us. Russians will never be afraid of German, Dutch or any other NATO soldiers than Yanks. If you keep doing that, I won't be surprised If at some point they will stop giving a damn. That's actually the goal of both Germany and France. Push Yanks out of Europe and replace NATO with "EU army" - then set the standards the way that others will buy mainly German and French equipment.

So excuse me but in case of defence/security German input is terrible from our point of view.

I was. Germany was one of our early investors. US after that, then EU comes and with it British, Dutch, some Spanish, then more people from abroad started coming, etc etc.

@G (undercover)

Lol sad but true.


Except the yanks have the best equipment, most troops, most nukes, most oil, most money and sell their stuff to France and German and are basically 95% of NATO themselves. Without US, NATO would have a tough time and the Germans, French and Brits know that. Gradually the British are starting to care a bit less with Brexit and all since they're an Island so they'd prolly make peace with Putin or nonaggress if it came down to it. Nonetheless, Brits are still important and they and France contribute a lot. Germany eh sort of. Germany's army isn't even actually all that much larger than Poland's despite being 2x the population and far richer. We have a lot troops and military spending is very high esp considering the standards for EU nations and our means.

@cms

I understand what you wanted to say, but the difference is in that we first led an almost decade long war against the Judeo-West and their horsemen the so-called "croats"/balije/shiptars. However, the Ukrops at the nod of that same Judeo-West and without any resistance, were on their knees led by the example of their Ustashe brethren.

We were being bombarded, waged a war for almost ten years, a puppet government was brought to us by a foreign sponsored color revolution that has been ruining us for almost two decades, yet we are still standing better off than the Ukrops, who (without bombing of the whole country, without heavy sanctions, without trade embargoes etc.) have one ten times worse standard from us.

And no that was a figure 1 person threw out in the media, others have said 700+ bil, - this is just a starting negotiation position.


See its all about cooperation and finding a middle ground. The amount to real victims (and perhaps their spouses, kids -basically immediate family) - Poles, Jews, Germans (perhaps even Roma, handicapped people, etc) in lands that were battle fields in Poland, the Germans would be a bit higher. Numbers vary greatly. The comfort women of South Korea were paid some $1,300 or so in the 50's 60's but that's like 10k today and Gaddafi paid the victims of Lockerbie several millions (I think 10 mil per dead to family). This is where the lawyers, international affairs specialists, analysts, etc. are working with one shred lawyer or politician being smart and using a pie in the sky number which obviously won't happen - Germany is not going to give 700bil-1tril that's unreasonable, or at least based on my knowledge of international business and such seems to be. I think an amount more similar to the South Korean reparations (this program I'm proposing is actually almost ideal to the SK - Japan reparation agreements) would be fair for a dead family member, women who went through rape, etc. People who have reasonably valid claims could do so in the separate appropriate courts with a more streamlined process. This may be the biggest issue because there's been property transfers during and after commie times, a lot of stuff was a bit illegally appropriated or at least immorally, there was corruption, etc. There were a bit of Germans that came to work and were used as slave labor within Poland even that weren't expelled bc of Stalins desire for land and slaves (including in E Germany and other post commie countries). The ones who came to Poland a lot of them were like basically part of an incentive program by the Nazis to live in the lebensraum (kind of like how Israel actually is doing now with in occupied Palestinian lands but that's another topic and debate). These individuals along with the Nazis conscripted poles into the Wermacht along with other minorities who they deemed 'good enough' not to immediately gas in their eyes. One of these individuals was the one who cut my uncles fingers off. I feel these for all guys, along with the Germans who have reasonable claims, Jews, Poles, etc. could def work it out.

Germany is doing precisely what Nato expects them to do here. The involvement there is sufficient, nothing to brag about but also nothing to complain about.


The agreement is that all Nato members are expected to spend 2% of their budget on defence by 2024, Germany has pledged to do just that and is increasing its' budget for years now. Again, no reason to complain.


Well, they spent approx. 1tn on their stupid invasion of Iraq. If they had listened to France and Germany who told Bush that this was a terrible idea, they might have been able to spend that money elsewhere. The USA is the last one to lecture others about their commitment to Nato, they are after all the only country who invoked Natos' help after 9/11, and many Europeans have since then died in Afghanistan.

Sure so called 'Marriott brigades', they came they stayed in the only decent Hotel at the time and they got paid tons of money from those ' founds of matured democracies' to lecture in English some random people about random subject, they were mostly people who failed at their own ventures elsewhere and some dude who owned them a favor in their respective gov. let them to 'earn' some money. Great bloody help!

You must be a bloody muppet. Got anything else?


Well when they paid what they should - how much it is a question of negotiation. Something else you want to know genius, the year maybe, the name of American president?


A very good question there is lost of Americans of German decent, he could be one as well,

Poland would be significantly worse off without all the assistance it received from Western Europe since the end of the Cold War. Arguing about this is pointless, only people who have obviously their own agenda would deny this. it is all written in the history books, how Mazowiecki and other Polish politicians asked mainly for German money, expertise, credits et al.

A Spoil of war? A gift of uncle Stalin and Ted Roosevelt. Historical justices, poetical justices, they reap what they sow, A trick of A Soviet Thug.

Any of them or possibly all of them. what of it?
In 1872 Germany took a large chunk of French territory plus a huge contribution. In 1918 France took a large chunk of German territory plus huge contribution. Whey asking for money is so tawdry and passé they got the land is priceless.


Am I? You could ask any number of strangers in Poland to talk to me and to you and then to vote who is a foreigner in Poland and who is not. Do u Want to say you think u would have won? lol!


Based on deep wounds and great damage that hasn't been properly addressed or compensated. Don't tell me that money and amount of them do not matter, even courts awards compensation to a victim of a crime.

The 2% benchmark has been in place since almost 20 years, you just kept ignoring it all the time to the point that Yanks started thinking about the pull out from Europe. And nothing has been done so far to change it. Schultz has been recently ranting that Germany is actually spending... too much on military. Merkel said it's going to grow but no decisions have been made. In the end it will be likely raised from 1.2% to 1.3%.

Last year when we organized NATO exercise with +30 000 soldiers, Germany sent in 1 company of engineers and here are comments from the German gov: independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/german-foreign-minister-accuses-nato-of-warmongering-russia-military-exercises-tensions-anaconda-16-a7088936.html

Both Germany and France are Trojan horses in NATO. Russian T-90s have French thermal cameras. euobserver.com/investigations/129953 Damn wankers.

It is redound to dwell on something that might or might not be true, diverging from the topic of this thread into something it has no bearing on the issue debated.


Yes, and Germany or rather Germans firm, gov and others were just charitable goodies two shoes and were only handing stuff out without asking for anything in return or at least without making any profit. OOOO goodie lol!