American soldiers beat up in Torun, Łódź

American strategists probably for a long time will analyze the failure of the largest army in the world at a bar in Torun. How is it that the Yankees lost the battle with the unemployed brothers, David (24 l) and Kamil. (19 l)?

Joseph L. and Joshua P. stationed in Torun base, managed the Patriot missiles. And as soldiers, they went to party. They went to one of the local bars, where they encountered the indigenous hooligans. An argument broke out, because one of the Yanks looked at a girl. Outside, there was a decisive battle. - It was a short fight. One of the soldiers was hit with fists and fell, and the other received a blow from foot jump shot. Both fell to the ground, and the two fled - said Adam K. (40 l), who watched from the window of a duel. - The police could not understand the Yanks, because cops do not speak English - he adds.

Joseph L. was taken to hospital, his friend had lighter injuries. They were robbed of the phone. The brothers are known to the police. Elder threatens up to 12 years in prison. To 3 years younger.

se.pl/wydarzenia/kronika-kryminalna/blokersi-pobili-jankeso w_244177.html

Anybody care to guess the chances of both those American servicemen being white? And then the chances that their race affected the way they were treated?

It's not rare to encounter rudeness in Poland if you have an American accent. I should know.

No, the Americans will not be bothering with some bar brawl, and they will not be following your exact translation from a ridiculous trashy language of Super Express. How on earth did you happen to dig in to this trash? OK, I accept that you are not that familiar with Polish tabloids; everyone can make a honest mistake.

You see, SE in addresses like this se.pl stands for Super Express, and that means a real garbage.

One of the Yankee soldiers looked like a girl? I didn't know Bradley Manning had been released from custody...

Looked at a Polish guys girl. That's what it supposedly started over.

my thoughts too. If they were in uniform they would have been left alone- but two black guys in a bar...they are a target. I can't imagine Torun sees a lot of people with different ethnicities.

Oh come on... 1) Nobody said they were black. 2) There were two of them, and they are soldiers. A "target"?


Well, then you need to work on your imagination, because Toruń is a major university town and actually has a lot of foreign exchange stuff going on.

You really need to get out more.
I find it quite disturbing that somebody who is not even polish trawls a polish internet forum looking for every opportunity to stick the boot in ?

Yes there are nutters in poland as there are nutters in every country on the planet.
LIke i said,disturbing.

Oh, I love it. First Harry comes with his unfound racist hypothesis, then Pip runs with it. What is wrong with you today? Would you care to check the facts first?

Oh well, I did.

They were in uniforms. They were not black. But all five of them - the two victims and three witnesses - were boyishly looking men, probably some programmers or electronic engineers - handling/maintaining a Patriot battery stationing at the time in Toruń. They were unfit to face up two experienced thugs, convicted in past for banditry, robbery and assaults. The Americans are returning to their base in Rammstein, Germany on Thursday, and this is why the speedy trial took place just recently, even though the prosecutors have not finished yet with their investigation. The incident took place on February 11, but the police and the prosecutors kept it secret till now. One of the victims, was immediately sent to the base hospital in Rammstein.

Contrary to the sensationalist Super Express, which almost took pride in the event, the Torun's dailies told it as it was.

Thinking that they were black is not outrageous. I am not sure if you have ever been on an Army base in the states. I have. Fort Drum to be exact. My parents are military and we used to go to Fort Drum to the PX to buy cheap stuff. The population is largely black.

Anyway, I was wrong with my guess that they were black. Big deal.

EPIC fail Harry.
Must try harder..

Unfounded? What are the chances that both of the victims are white? Well, let's take a look at the photos of the unit on the website of the city of Torun: torun.pl


Thanks for the suggestion of checking those sources. Gazeta Torun has a decent piece on the story: torun.gazeta.pl/torun/1,90288,11288569,Dwa_lumpy_zlaly_amerykan skich_zolnierzy.html

I wonder why you didn't link to the article in question after you read it? Surely it could not be because the article clearly states "Joshua P., który w poniedziałek stawił się w toruńskim sądzie, aby złożyć zeznania w tej sprawie, to wątły młodzieniec o koreańskich korzeniach." Do forgive me if I'm reading this wrong but I get the feeling that says "Joshua P., who appeared in Torun court on Monday to give evidence in the case, is a skinny young man of Korean descent."


Really? Looks like I was spot on. But do feel very free to go into detail about how a man of Korean descent is actually white. After you've done that you can tell us all about your experiences of going out in smallish Polish cities with non-whites.

Better luck next time.

ZZZZ
Have you seen radek kaluzny?
Just one example of a pole who could be mistaken for a 'foreigner',many poles look 'foreign' or non white.
Stop talking Bollocks harry,like i said,its disturbing that a non polish grown up man spends his time trawling a polish forum looking for any chance to have a 'dig'.

And regarding experience of small polish cities, whats yer point?asians were getting battered and racially abused left right and centre in the UK from the 60's onwards,idiots in every country.

You IMO,need help,and fast.

Interesting. In 17 years in Poland I have never ever seen a Pole who could be mistaken for a Korean man. In fact I have met very few who could be considered to look anything other than white (with the obvious exception of the Vietnamese in Warsaw, but would you describe them as Poles? I somehow very much doubt you would). But you claim that many Poles actually look non-white. Have you actually ever been to Poland?


I asked, without doing any research at all, what the chances were that both of these men were white. And lo and behold: there is a 100% chance that they were not both white.


Nice personal abuse to distract attention from the fact that your 'EPIC fail Must try harder' comment has boomeranged back onto you.


My point is that non-whites in smaller Polish cities can expect to have problems sooner or later. That is shown by my personal experience and that of pretty much every non-white person I have spoken to who spent time in such places.


I fear that you will soon be finding out that making entirely off topic comments which are designed to abuse other posters is met with bans of increasing length.

no harry it hasn't,google radek kaluzny and tell me he looks white.many poles esp from the east look non white harry,my dad was mistaken for an asain a number of times here in the uk,after growing a beard i might add!

Anyway,we both know your insinuation was that the two guys attacked were black,no doubt you will deny that being the kind of troll you undoubtedly are.

so no 'boomerang' here .
ps i been to poland many times i have polish blood running through my vains.

Why don't you go there and teach them about errors of they way.
By the way would they behavior been acceptable if those soldiers would have been white ?

No, the insinuation I made was that they were not likely to both be white. Hence my question "Anybody care to guess the chances of both those American servicemen being white?" Or would you care to claim that the only ethnic groups in the USA are blacks and whites?

And, surprisingly enough, not both of them are white. Which might just have played a part in what happened to them. As will be very well known to anybody who is not white and has spent time in smallish Polish cities.


Your statements here very much suggest that you have never set foot in the country. Anybody who claims that many Poles look non-white has either never been here or is severely colourblind.


You'd do well to heed what I said about how the moderators here react to personal abuse.

Maybe it was more to do with a few drunk Poles disliking a foreign military presence in their town, rather than race?

I have an angry emotional response whenever I see American military in Hungary. They have no business there.

I wouldn't beat them up cos I'm well mannered and a girl - but not everyone is that well mannered....

My hunch is that they were beaten up for being American Soldiers.

There is absolutely no evidence that this attack was racially motivated, speculate until the cows come home if you wish, but until there is any actual EVIDENCE there is nothing to discuss.

Toruń is a university town with a population of 205,934 (and counting), so no, it's not that "smallish" and, as I said earlier, there's lots of foreign exchange students out and about.

Why make a bar brawl over a girl into something it clearly isn't - a racist attack?

On a completely different note, there were 5 American soldiers in the bar, but when the bouncer kicked out one of them and one of the Polish hoodlums, they stayed put. Only one ran out afterwards and tried to call the police. The other three just sat there.

So they were beaten up for being American but there was no racial motive at all. See a slight contradiction there?


Huge. Massive even.

aw, c'mon- how many of us at one point or another would have loved to kick the crap out of an American. ;)

Since when exactly is American a race?


I did not say that. A town of 5000 could be called smallish. On the other hand, my American friends from Minnesota used to call any town / village with more than 10 houses a "city" and where totally in awe of towns the size of Ełk (population 60 000).

Certainly not me. Or at least never simply because they were American.

There's no contradiction because "American" does not describe a race . Try and find me an scientific article about "American genetic markers" (and I'm not talking about native Americans).

American is a nationality so this may well have been a xenophobic rather than racial attack.

Have you read any of the comments under either of the articles you have linked to, or the comments in the original linked article? There's no mention of race... but there are a lot of people that seem to be pissed off with the US military presence, or Americans in general.

The truth is, American policy makers do not help their image abroad, and as far as I'm aware the Poles aren't exactly happy being taken into wars for oil and being on the shite end of American "greencard" policies. The US military are the face of the US government. It's not surprising therefore that a couple of uneducated drunken civilians attack the face of the US military. Not everyone in Europe loves the US presence here, and the uneducated certainly cannot tell the difference between the government and its people, or the people serving in their military.

Do feel very free to go and argue with what the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination says.


a) I didn't say 'town': I said city.
b) I am not American.
c) I do not speak American English, I speak British English and in British English a city of 200,000 is smallish.


Really? ohchr.org/english/law/cerd.htm says otherwise:

1. In this Convention, the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or [b]national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.[/b]

Personally I have found out that Poles can punch you when you hit on top looking women.However their punches are not that great they do not have the brute force of Russians who are mostly trained in box.

These marines must be made of sugar.They received punches and fell down WTF?

There is no mention of race but people are pissed off with Americans in general. So no racial discrimination there then.

(my bolding)


No! No racial discrimination.

Harry, you were the one banging on about being black and white earlier in the thread. You made no mention of nationality. The convention uses "racial discrimination" as a catch all phrase because it makes a contractual document about 1/4 of the size it would be. If they were to define everything by a dictionary standard in the contract it would go on forever. It's a clever thing that lawyers do to save time. Racial discrimination only = xenophobia IN THAT SPECIFIC document for the purposes of legality. Shall mean, as it says in the document, does not equal "does mean".

Are you saying that, because of this legally drawn up document, that if you were to look in an Oxford English dictionary suddenly

xenophobia = racism

and

racism = xenophobia.

Please Harry, you are smarter than this.

I would. They are more Polish than those who would abandon their homeland for opportunistic reasons. They live and work in Poland, pay taxes, speak the language, make Poland a better place. Or at least that's the argument I have seen put forth on other threads. :-)