Prevention of child abduction by Polish mother.

Hi Polishmamma

Sorry, misunderstood the point there totally. A very valid argument, but I am really in the dark as to this and what I could possibly do. So if you have any ideas please let me know and I will certainly think about them.

To be honest I wish my ex was her to state her case. Then I could just sort this mess out and if I have done things wrong apologise for them as could she, and hopefully work something out for the child's best interests!

I'll be honest, my previous post wasn't entirely clear, I'll admit that. Apologies. I'm not sure what to suggest to you but parenting classes are always a great place to start, particularly those tailored toward parents who are not together in a relationship. Those types of classes should be able to offer ways to speak to each other in a way to avoid further conflict, parenting techniques that can help address issues of the child feeling in the middle or abandoned, perhaps even some sessions on addressing one's one issues from the past so that one can begin a fresh start with a new perspective and greater amount of tools-the biggest in parenting being communication. Also, if you are able to establish parentage, you would be required most likely to both take parenting classes anyway.

Hi Polishmamma

I am more than happy to try your suggestions as I certainly don't know everything, but I am not sure if my ex will be so keen on these classes now that I think about it.

If I understand the laws correctly, if you establish parentage and go through court for your rights, she will be required to take the classes as well.

Hi Polishmamma

If that's the case all the better as we might be able to bury our differences and focus on our child. :-)

I think so. Like I said, if your intentions are true and there was no abuse, and you have no problems allowing her to move back to Poland with the child, I think the classes might be the fresh start you both need to be good parents to the child. Not that you both weren't before, but it never hurts to have a fresh start.

Hi Polishmamma

I can assure you my intentions are in the best interests of the child, and there are has never been even a hint of abuse from me!

Let us hope things are worked out for the best for this child!

Your comment is laughable but in a sad way. You are thoroughly uninformed and judge your false opinion on 'feelings'.
I recommend this site for you so that you can learn some objective facts (although I doubt if you are capable of reading through scenarios which you don't want to believe exist). The column on the right is unfortunately typical of how difficult the fight is for many good men attempting to seek justice.

fathersandfamilies.org/2011/12/20/victory-solomon-metalwalas-daughter-comes-home-to-dad/


Can a man? You are probably unaware that women are statistically as abusive as men are. Of course the main street media rarely notes this but constantly publishes domestic violence as being a 'woman's issue' so I don't blame you for only looking at this half-way.

csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm


Finally, a reasonable question from you. Your earlier efforts demonizing the father were completely off base. All men should get a DNA test.

uk.answers.yahoo/question/index?qid=20071004214200AAmRQ5H


Still not one thought to abusive mothers eh?


In western societies women automatically think this way. As evidenced bypolishmama objectivity is alien to them. In fact, during divorce proceedings, women often make-up stories of being domestic violence victims to get better deals during court proceedings. Even their attorneys hint that they should do this.

You seem to be a nice guy but much too patient with a couple of the posters here, especially ones who despite all evidence 'feel' that men have advantages when it comes to child custody. Of course I'd be happy to elaborate how wrong they are if necessary.

I think the OP is interested in his legal abilities, not "feelings". And I'll be sure to tell my lawyer that his legal advice was based on "feelings" and not the law. *roll my eyes*

yeh that is true, they can go to a refuge and have everyone feel sorry for them, and then get a cheap council flat....SOMETIMES

Dont be a fool, you have believed her bull sh1t on this as well as the state of your relationship. If Poland is the paradise ex pat Poles paint it,why the fek are so many of them still coming here?


She should have kept her legs closed untill she got home to Poland then. Simple.

Oooops, I haven`t read such a primitive comment for a long time here. :(:(:(:(:(

Is, what is wrong with you? Are you going through a rough patch right now?

Hi Zimmy

I'm not going to get involved in any arguments on this forum as to me I am just here to get the best for my child, but I really do appreciate your support and best wishes. If you have any advice on what you think I should do please let me know as I am more than willing to listen. Also thanks for the comment about being a 'nice guy' as sometimes with everything that is going on I feel a bit shell shocked and find myself wondering what I have done so wrong!

At the moment you are an emotional wreak. Get strong quick brother. Get legal advice ( not PF,s ). You have to get mean and nasty and do what actions the lawyer advises you, even if it sounds harsh.

Don,t toe the line, don,t toe HER line. Don,t let her pull your strings. Get the upperhand legally and YOU will be calling the shots.

Might help to get in touch with " fathers 4 justice " or similar organisation too.

Hi Hitman

I am strong most of the time, but sometimes I just have those moments as it sounds you know when you just stop and wonder who turned the world on it's head.

Following my solicitor's (lawyer's) advice as she is very good, but trying not to be nasty as I don't want my ex to have anything that she can say to my child that will turn them against me in the future.

Will investigate Fathers 4 justice, many thanks for the pointer!

To Anglik1

I don't know you. I don't know her. Nothing you say here on this forum can be validated so we might say we see one side of the story or maybe there is no side, just a very edited picture. I don't know. Who am I to judge anyway? Just another anon nick on the forum.

So fishing for stuff that in this case must be true, otherwise there would be no case, I'm assuming that you exist, she exists, she had a child, the child is presumably yours, she wanted to go back home with the child and have nothing to do with you, you stopped her by legal means.

Now I'm trying to put myself in her mind, regardles of everything else that has been said here (ie.: psychological issues with creating a family, etc.):

I'm a woman in a foreign country who just had a child with a man with whom I no longer want to have any dealings with. I might be still a bit shaken after childbirth (not an easy thing to go through). I want to terminate my connection with this man and go back home for reasons perhaps unknown, maybe those that were mentioned here or maybe because I can no longer support myself abroad, etc. The man who impregnated me turns to the state and law to force me to stay in a foreign country. I have to stay, because I can't abandon my child. In fact I'm in trouble either way. If I go, I can't take my child. If I stay, my free will is curtailed and I'm forced to stay by a man I didn't want to have any contact with in the first place.

All things put aside... how does that make me feel inside about that man?

I don't know about her, but going by my own personal experiences, feelings and general outlook on life, if I were her, I'd see you not as a worried father, but as a <long line of censored words> who keeps me prisoner in a foreign country, while I just want to go home. Suddenly every policeperson, every civil servant, every lawyer and judge are my enemies. All of the either forbid me to go or threaten to take my child away if I try. And you are the reason, it's YOUR FAULT! I'd probably wish all sorts of worst possible things to happen to you, instant death being last on the list as "to nice". I'd want you to suffer.

Sorry for caps lock. It's just for emphasis.

I'm a man myself. Everytime I read an article about divorces, etc. and the bias that men face there I feel my stomach turning with anger. I have a kid myself. The very thought that my life partner might grab him and take off God knows where sends chills down my spine. So reading this thread I can probably emulate some of your emotions aswell and guess the line of thought behind calling in everything at your disposal to stop her leaving.

I try to understand. I sympathize.

At the same time I can't stop wondering how she feels. Trapped? Maybe.

Perhaps it might have been better to let her go and then try to win her trust again. She might have been feeling safer on familiar ground. More willing to talk. I don't know. I don't know the whole story. I'm not a psychologist. Really.

I'm just thinking, that if I were trying to "go home and leave all troubles behind" and someone slammed a gate on me saying "You can't go."... I'd have to dig deep and hard to stop feeling angry.

Maybe that's one of the reasons she doesn't want to talk to you. If that's the case, bridges are burned. You can't unmake what's been done. Even if you lift the gates, she'll remember and even if you patch things up she might not want to come back or let your son visit you, out of fear that you might slam the gates shut again.

I sure would be affraid. You'd have to work pretty damn hard to earn my trust again.

I'm glad I'm not in your shoes. I hope I never will be. But with divorce rates over 50% rampaging all over the world and with courts practically always siding with mothers I can't really say that I'm 100% sure I won't experience something similar. Only... ~50% sure. That... scares me.

But you have given advice based on your jaundiced "feelings". . I've given you links based on reality. You did not look at them because you posted a mere 4 minutes after I did. That means you prefer "feelings" rather than evidence and objective truth. Based on your previous posts, I knew you were not going to look at my links when I noted, "I doubt if you are capable of reading through scenarios which you don't want to believe exist". You proved me correct.

If nothing else, dare to digest this..........csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm]; however, I doubt if you can.

Hi Escar

I understand completely what your saying and the point you are making. It is indeed very, very valid and I have not taken my actions without immense consideration. I have tried to reason and discuss the issues, but have just been told that I will not be allowed to see my child. My recourse to legal action has been taken with a great deal of regret, but I have at every turn tried to put the child first, bury my emotions and above all be reasonable and understanding. When you can do no more you take the action that I have and you still feel tremendous guilt in doing so. However, what choice do you have if the other person refuses all reasonable attempts to find a solution and sees the child as purely a commodity, I wish I could elaborate more, but that is tied to a legal issue. I have to emphasis I am in no way stopping this woman from returning to her own country and family I am merely ensuring my child knows their father which my ex is trying to prevent. I have wrestled with this, putting myself in my ex's shoes as it were thinking how she must feel, but she has made a good life for herself in the UK and has lived here for over 9 years. My ex is not a frightened individual in the UK as this country is more of her home to her than Poland having spent more of her adult life here than in Poland. Also I am not some evil person who is preventing this innocent from returning home, she has been quite vocal in her anger and abuse towards me. She has threatened me on several occasions with several things just because I want to see my child and turn up at the door to see my child, so I don't think she feels trapped, merely angry that I won't just let her do whatever she wants with our child!

I just want to reiterate I am not stopping my ex from leaving the country or living her life, but why should she stop our child from having a father who loves them.

As for trust like many things it's a two way street, and I have turned the other cheek many times.

Good luck than, man, in this endevour and let's just hope that the kid comes out of this with his/her psyche intact. I suppose it is possibly better to have two loving parents fighting over one then none at all, but still not as good as two loving parents working in concert. I hope you guys manage to come to an amiable solution.

I certainly hope she doesn't see it that way. If she did, she would be going after you for child support under the table, I would think.

Remember one thing about women and their feelings towards their children. It's fundamentally different than a man's feelings toward a child. It is created, developed, reinforced and socially enforced to be different.

That child grew in their body, not yours. 24/7 they were responsible from conception for that child who was connected to them physically and mentally for roughly 9 months. Then, labor. No man goes through anything like labor ever in life. Then, a child, a blessing from God, who we are responsible for, and gladly so, we can't imagine life without that child. Ourchild. Who, many of us continue to be connected to physically for several more months while we breastfeed that child, around the clock. Our child.

It sounds selfish? I'm sorry if it seems that way. But, you have to admit, mothers have a bond with children that begins physically and psychologically and at a far deeper level than fathers do. So, to make a woman feel trapped because of her child, well, we don't view it as a kindness to ourselves or the child. Nor, do we tend to view the child as a commodity. But, as (see what I wrote above) our child, the most precious blessing God could give us. Or nature, if you aren't religious. Not a blessing like someone might view a new car or new house or new job as a blessing. That's not a blessing, there's nothing spiritual about a "thing" being given in our lives. To me, and many other women, having a child really hits us on a spiritual level that it's impossible to describe. I don't know your ex, but it's always hard to imagine a woman viewing a child as a commodity. It is, however, very easy to imagine a man viewing a child that way, I see it often enough.

Complaints by fathers that we ask for child support, for one. Well, to clarify that, men passed the laws for child support, men get tax deductions for paying child support, men enforce the laws for child support, and the courts don't typically allow women to waive child support. Also, statistics have shown (but I'm sure people can dispute this) that women still pay more for the care of child than men do with their typical 17% child support.

OP, I really sincerely do wish you and the ex and the child (most of all, the child) the best of luck to make the child's future the best it can be. It's the only thing that matters in this thread.

ZIMMY, provide links that, as far as I see, are not tied to Father Rights Groups and have no bias for their topic, then I'll read it. Try Phyllis Chesler’s ‘Mothers On Trial', if you are interested, sometime. In the meantime, it's off topic and having nothing to do with this discussion.

Escar, Wow, that was deep.

thanks for that Polishmama, interesting stuff......

Not really paw' but thanks for the concern.
Its just I simply detest fekless parents who take off to other countries,lets just say its personal for me.

yer and me, well the feckless bit anyway.

Does that include women who dump their new borns in trash cans or toilets?
Since you declare that women are special when it comes to children is there something special that men have?

You seem incapable of understanding the deep love a man has for his child. That is sad, disturbing, and of course sexist (using feminist logic, such as it is). As to you suggesting a "far deeper level" of love than men, I would find it difficult to see any love deeper than I have for my children. You insult fathers everywhere.


I did. Perhaps you are so into your woman-ness that you are incapable of objective facts. The Fiebert Studies which I linked for you were compiled by disparate, unrelated, investigators which were compiled without prejudice. Indeed, some were from university research teams which are socially liberal and tied to women's studies. If you believe that 282 scholarly investigations: 218 empirical studies, 64 reviews and analyses which total 369,800 in aggregate sample size are too disturbing for your prejudicial beliefs than continue to live in your misandrist world.

Polishmamma

Everyone who has spoken to my ex partner as stated that it sounds as thought she is just after money, even people I would not expect this comment from at all!

I think your comment about a man's relationship to a child being fundamentally different has been turned on It's head by those fathers who stay at home to look after children. Sweeping generalisation no longer appear to work in the 21st century, old norms and conventions are being broken daily!

Your comment about 'our child' is sexist out of date and such an insult to be beyond contempt. If I was to make such a sweeping generalisation in reverse I am sure you would be up in arms. A child needs whoever feeds them, changes them, cares for them and loves them. Be they male or female, a baby does not only have to be breast fed and doesn't remember the nine months it spent in the womb. An example might be that of nannies who are treated by some children as their real mother, when their birth mother is a complete stranger to the child. Or a mother who rejects a child due to postnatal depression, and there are other such numerous examples, such as a child rejected by both parents and brought up by a grandparent. I'm sorry your argument holds as much water as a sieve.

It doesn't sound selfish it just sounds sexist, so don't worry about that! A child bonds with whom ever looks after it, so the connection is purely on the mother's side not the child's and this maybe where some women get the idea that their child was the result of the immaculate conception! Another purely sexiest comment about a man viewing a child as a commodity. How dare you even say that to me! You don't know me and I have posted in this forum to get advice on trying to be a proper responsible father and have to be confronted with this remark. Maybe if you knew my ex you might understand a bit better. However, I suspect your obviously dogmatic view precludes you from viewing anything upon an objective basis!

As for the next paragraph your rant against men please take the axe that you apparently have to grind elsewhere!

I am here on this forum to help my child have a good happy childhood and help them grow up to be a fully rounded individual. I repeat I am not here to hurt, upset, be cruel or in any other way be nasty to my ex-partner! This has clearly not come across, so yet again I find I have to repeat myself!!!

Sorry, but please take your sexist dogma elsewhere. I've always appreciated constructive comments, but I find your insulting!


Escar

I don't really think you have grasped the situation at all 'two loving parents working in concert'! I have been reasonable and tried every avenue to work in concert in this, and have my child's best interests at heart, where as my ex it would it appears would like to deny the child a loving father. Therefore, sometimes you have to get the courts involved so that they can decide what is best for the child and not just the mother who exacts in a selfish manner! As for the child's psyche if I do nothing then it will be damaged by feeling that their father does not or didn't care about them. You can also I should add damage a child's psyche by not giving them boundaries, treating them as adults when they are clearly not and in a thousand other ways! It is necessary in life to take a stand, and yes question that you are still doing the right thing from time to time. It is only those who are arrogant enough not to have any self doubt that concern me!

BUllcrap! you didn't put the child first! your idea was self centerd, your steps of action make you look selfish! full of false pride! you did it because it would make you feel good

The best parents who put the child first make actions that are trully good and right: they stay together, work thisngs out, go to canuceling, get married to form a loving enfironment for the child. Both of you are wrong, both of you are unable to overcome your false pride and selfishenss, making decisions that would please you and not the child!

remember, parents sacrifices for the child are based on unity, togetherness,( unless there is threat to someoness life, which in your case ther isn't) not self centerd pleasing ideas!

Mart

You are by far the biggest moron, because you haven't read my posts correctly as I have mentioned that I asked her to marry me and she changed her mind, also reasoning with her has failed and their was no option left, but legal means. You cannot show unity where the other person is just absorbed with their own wants and will not discuss what is best for the child and fails to have an open mind!

I would insult you, but judging by your failure to read my posts correctly you wouldn't understand that either. So why don't you just wade in with your ill informed comments and insults you ignorant thug!


Really sorry to hear that it's personal for you too!

Don't bother responding to mart's comments because (she?) has no comprehension skills.

I will add one more comment about polishmama's thesis. Her comment;


Unless the 'mother' aborts that unborn child as so many do. That doesn't sound so loving. Hmmmm - Oh, and men had nothing to do with a child's conception? Men have been fooled for a long time thinking they had something to do with it; more Hmmmm

Hunny,

Read this again


you didn't do this. you only mentioned that you did this:


and this:


do you see the differance. No? read it ten more times

ignorant thug?!
you shoud had kept you rubber on and there wouldn't be any problem

you ignorant thug!

Hi Zimmy

I have to say I don't want to be drawn into any arguments. However, having said that I have found Polishmamma's comments so unbelievably insulting, and I am starting to agree more with some of your points!