Polish men what is the worst thing a girl can do upon first impression?

did you understand my example?

I couldn't agree more. Modern feminism really has nothing to do at all with equal rights or freedom it is simply an effort to dominate, humiliate, and make women look better than men. I think it could very well be called "reverse sexism" because it is trying to make men look like the weaker sex. It has no relation to anything "equal" whatsoever. They blame men for what they are and don't accept their differences as equal (because they feel they must be like a man in order to not be weak). Old feminism ie. the right to vote etc. is quite noble in my opinion and it actually had some great core to it, but modern feminism is just nothing like it at all.

The third wave of feminism that started in the 90's is the only one that is going right now. Powerfeminism has nothing to do with humiliating men whatsoever. What does a demanding of equal jobs and equal payment have to do with humiliating men?


So you don't want a good job, make a decent living?

>^..^<

M-G (haec hactenus)

Just out of curiousity, do we have Meninists?

:S

Mennonites, oh sorry, that's sth different as I don't think the Amish have ever heard of feminism :)

But on a serious note: why would we want to have meninism? Men already have all the (basic-) rights given to themselves, there is no need to fight for equal rights for them.

>^..^<

M-G (just thinks that everybody is equal, should have the same opportunities and so on)

I don't know, but what Allison said made me wonder. (I mean, being a woman, she must know something I don't?) Some things do annoy me if I look at all the imagery in the media these days, every guy has a six-pack, every guy is succesful, every guy drives a big fat car and wears a three piece suit, and you're a loser when you're working class.


Wrong, because many men are kept small by other men aswell. Homeless people? Mostly men. War casualties? Mostly men. Working class? Work until you're 67, and we don't care that your work is ten times heavier than any office job we do. We don't want you to enjoy your old days, and we hope you die so we keep your funds. A 73 year old Berlusconi goes through hundreds of 18 year old girls, but let all those young working class guys shut up and forget about a girlfriend, let them work for us and let them die on the job. Or even better; Get immigrants to do the work for them, make them completely redundant and call them useless and lazy!

;P

Okay, maybe a bit overexaggarated, but still.. I think you get the idea. Men keep men small aswell. Don't even bother to deny it, all you have to do is look around you.. (But it's cool you believe in equality, because I do too.)

:)

We already have sth to deal with that. It's called socialism :)


But what has this to do with equal opportunities? The point of feminism is simply that women who are just as intelligent or even smarter than some men, should get the same opportunity in work and in life. It has nothing to do with the fact that not so smart ppl (or ppl who didn't want to go to school or were too lazy to learn) don't get a fat job. Every man in society is free to pursuit his ambitions and if you don't then that is fine, but don't blame it on the system afterwards when you find out that you will have to live on the edge of minimality for the rest of your life. And war casualties are simply the product of the aforementioned simple patterns of thinking.


You're just jealous :) I don't think you would complain if you were to be in his position. Don't forget he didn't get his position "just like that", eh?

>^..^<

M-G (equal opportunities, but you must be willing to do sth for it!)

Blow her nose too openly ;) I'm aware of the need to do it but it really makes them look ugly, sorry. Some damn big beaks too :(

Just look at the elections?


I agree.


I know I'm boring, but let me repeat it again: If your parents can't afford college when you're younger, and if you can't afford college later on in life, simply because minimum wage has been kept low, unlike the rest of the salary scales, then you're not as free to pursuit your ambitions as you may think, regardless of how smart you are. I mean, it will take you much longer to come out of such a situation, even when you have the same capacity as someone else. Where's the equal opportunity in that scenario? You tell me.


Well, the educated ones are in charge are they not? I guess you need to adjust your theory about smart people?


I can honestly tell you that I'm not, and neither do I have any reason to be jealous.


No, I would change the whole damn system if I were in his position, so I could show what equality really means.


He's a megalomaniacal idiot, he has Mafia ties, he's anything BUT intelligent, and I would wipe the floor with guys like him if I had the chance. To me, guys like him symbolize everything that's wrong within our societies. (I mean, a Casanova grandpa who thinks 18 year old girls give a **** about how awesome he is, how sad is that for a leader who is supposed to be a role-model?) The bottom line is: For as long as we can see that the gap between wealth and poverty is still increasing, you can't honestly tell me that this system thrives on equality and equal opportunity.

:)

Have a nice day M-G.

There are no equal opportunities in this society.There are priviledges,heritage etc.
And look,germanic nations accept that I mean if you doubt you will get crashed in no time.Here where middle class is weak they will suffer big time they don't have the means to crash the opposition.

Yeah, but that is just because ppl are in the wrong assumption that right wing will take care of the working class, while in fact they have never done so.


In the US it may work like that, but in NL we have good facilities for ppl who cannot afford to study. My parents, for example, are not rich at all, yet I could go to university thanks to a scholarship from the govt. I do agree with you though on the point that it's not fair that rich kids have a better start in life after college because they don't start out with a debt. But hey, you might as well go against the beautiful ppl as life is so much easier for them. It's us ourselves who keep things the way they are. You can try to start a revolution and everybody in word will agree to it, but when the push comes to the shove, nobody will join you. We all just like to complain about these things, but it seems nobody wants to actively change them. We all expect "the other guy/girl" to do this and in the end nothing happens. You know that yourself.


Like I said in an earlier posting, being intelligent or smart is no deterrant for primitive or instinctive thinking. Deep down inside we're still primitive cavemen. Not all of us, but most of us.

And I do agree that Berlusconi is an uneducated moron and should leave the stage asap.


You too.

>^..^<

M-G (is probably not going to watch a game today as he is a bit worried about his throat)

Ofcourse I do! This may sound funny to you; But I'm not actually complaining. All I want is for some people to acknowledge a few simple facts, instead of going on about how great and fair this system is. I don't want to start a revolution either, and I honestly don't care about who's in charge, because the next leader is going to play the exact same game and we all know it. I just want some people to acknowledge a few simple facts, instead of giving me fairytales about how one should earn his position, or even suggest I'm speaking about fictional things here, when I'm merely addressing the existing phenomenons. That's all.

;)


Unfortunately. (Atleast some guys are man enough to admit it.)

;)

Berlusconi is perfect for Italy.We are talking about a nation which voted Cicciolina for the parlament.

Common stance among Dutch historians is that "the Italian" does not exist. It's all a mixture of particularism and when you ask an Italian where he is from, he most likely will tell you first the name of the city or area where he is from and after that Italy. It's also the country they want to split up in Padania (Northern Italy) and the South of Italy as two seperate nations. So in that respect it's not that strange that Berlusconi is president there.

>^..^<

M-G (divide and conquer)

I chewed you up and spit you out so I don't blame you for quitting your losing argument.
I do blame you however, for being a pretending elitist and a phony. At any rate I accept your capitulation.


This surprising response to Izvirai contradicts your statements that codify men as being merely good for impregnation. You should at least try being consistent.


Lol. only elitists and pretenders speak in the third person. Were you quivering when you decided to insult me instead of responding to honest discourse? You have no idea how

low brow your comments have become. By the way, my IQ is 158, after reading your futile posts, it would seem to be about twice yours. Now stop quivering!

Keep on dreaming. You have said nothing that I didn't say and only showed you knew shyte about what I was saying. And besides, you have nowhere proved me wrong. Bye Zimmy.


LOL that doesn't show anywhere.

>^..^<

M-G (haec hactenus)

Well, I was sent to the VBO, because they couldn't afford VWO for me, while my test scores were more than good enough. Now if you want to go to University, you'll need VWO, Gymnasium or Atheneum, correct? Now, why I say there's no such thing as equal opportunity: You actually have to pay VWO, Gymnasium or Atheneum out of your OWN pockets if you wish to undo your lack of qualifications later on in life, because the small grant you might recieve for VWO doesn't cover the costs at all. I could be getting (Maybe!) 150 € a month. VWO will cost you about 700-800 € a month, so even with a grant this means a lot of saving up when you're on minimum wage. (Keep in mind you'll have to pay your rent, clothing, insurances and groceries.) You're right about the scholarship for University though, but you'll have to get there first.

;)

A-J (Still not complaining, just knows he's right.)

Hm, in my time you'd pay a yearly contribution and so called book money. I can't remember what it was back in the days, but the Gymnasium I went to was pretty lenient towards parents who could not afford the money by letting them pay in terms. All this based on your CITO test of course. Maybe this has changed somewhere along the line, but in my time it was like that.

>^..^<

M-G (pass it on)

You sound as if it's 1970. First, if women really wanted "equal jobs" than half of all oil rig workers, long-haul truckers, auto repair, refuse workers, fishermen, hazmat workers, etc, etc, would be women. Fact is, women gravitate to jobs which don't involve dirty and dangerous work. Don't insult yourself by pointing out exceptions which only prove the point.

As to "equal payment", the facts are these;
1/men are paid more for doing the dangerous work (men make up 93% of all job related deaths because of the kind of jobs men do - pay is higher for such work)

2 women take more time off from work because of illnesses and because of taking care of kids thus losing years of seniority.
3/ In the U.S. men on average work more overtime (5 hours per week more) thus boosting their wages.
4/women doing 'the same work' as men are paid the same. Individual exceptions always exist and that's true for men to. Some jobs pay women more for the same work men do.

Examples include modeling, and women who work in so-called male professions since companies want to boost their female percentages in these areas.

Much of this is common sense stuff, but then phony elitists like you don't have any.

womensissues.about.com/od/intheworkplace/a/HigherEarnings.htm

From the link:
"......over 80 occupations that not only bring home the bacon, butearn women from 5% up to 43% more than men holding down the same jobs. They include sales engineers (who make on average $89,908 - 43% more than their male counterparts earning $62,660) and automotive service technicians and mechanics (average earnings $40,664 for women, $31,460 for men - a difference of 29%)."

--------------------------------------------

MareGaie: "You have said nothing that I didn't say"

It should be obvious that I've stated the exact opposite, but than, you need an IQ above 70 to understand that. Amazing.

That's an excellent post, ZIMMY!! M-G, it's really hard to disagree with what he just said.

For a person who claims to be nearly as smart as Oppenheimer (you know, the guy who invented the atombomb) you leave out THE thing which makes this argument futile:

-physical difference: women simply CANNOT perform all work men can do but in all fields where they can, they will and actually are doing it. You just so conveniently forget that.


If this were true, how then do you explain that a woman gets less than a man at an office job?


sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080204212846.htm


So I guess that's a myth too as it levels out.


Just some random quotes of a person who claims to have an IQ of 158:




Wow, a superhigh IQ, a condo in the hottest place of Chicago, probably the fastest car in the world, a very important job...Wow and still single by choice....HAHAHAHAHAHA

These are particularly funny:



No wonder you're single. Nobody can keep up with your ego. And so it doesn't surprise me at all. But keep telling yourself that it's by choice as you probably are the only one to believe it anyway. What also wouldn't surprise me is that you're in fact would be some poor sod living in a poor neighbourhood of some urban Chicago or wherever, dreaming up an image of how you would like to be. Unfortunately nobody buys that.


No it's not that hard to disagree with it as he leaves out stuff and ignores other facts. In fact, I just did :)

>^..^<

M-G (bye Zimmy)

I know, so maybe now you understand why I tell the older generation it was easier for them?


They won't let you pay in terms these days.


550 points. (Max.)

:)

A-J (Hates injustice.)

I had a full score on the CITO.


It's them right-wing parties whom you have to "thank" for this.

>^..^<

M-G (agrees on AJ's hate of injustice)

So did we have equal opportunities? Look, I'm not jealous of you or anyone else, and you deserved the education, but so did I.


I know, but I'm not going to give up. (They wish!)

;)

Of course you do. But I didn't know that the financial part of the education system in NL has changed so much as I thought that education was a basic right. It's an outrage that you didn't get a chance to pursue a better education.

Have to say that it's mainly due to my mom that I was able to pursue my education; as I've told you before my teacher in 6th class didn't like me, probably because I was smarter than he was, and advised my parents that LBO would only be pssbl for me and then with the greatest of difficulties, even though I had a full score in CITO a score which I only shared with one girl in my district. My mom knew of this and ignored the advise and put me in the highest pssble bridge-grade as according to her, it was easier to go down a step than to go up one level. And I did well. Hope you get your chance in due time, AJ.

>^..^<

M-G (supports AJ's fight for justice)

I will start next year if I'm lucky with my next job, and I'm planning to do VWO in one year, maybe one and a half. I just hate the fact I had to waste so many years of my life working for sometimes less than someone on benefits would recieve. Hey, but atleast I can say I did it, right?

:)

A-J (Happy he actually has a supporter.)

Edit: Erm.. Polish men. Girls? Right. First impressions.

;P

I can get a little carried away sometimes, sorry!

Clearly, men that see women as no more than a maid and/or sex slave are living in the past, but my point was that arguing without fact, ranting and name calling are not going to change their opinions. It's like trying to convince a racist that skin colour isn't important, or questioning the existence of god to a highly religious person. Brick Wall.

Rather than trying to reason with these kinds of people, it is surely more productive to ignore them and go out and do what it is we need to do, thus proving that women are in fact equal.


Surely this comes down to actually getting to know a person before you become deeply involved with them? I don't know about other people, but i'm careful not to fall for a person until i know them and their views fairly well, especially when it comes to things that are important to me such as religion, animal rights, womens rights, gender/sex issues etc.

Obviously people can lie, but upon finding out the man i love see's me as nothing more than a useful tool i'd hope that i have enough self-respect to walk away.


Please can you clarify this, do you mean that a woman that does choose to stay at home is also choosing to be a slave to her partner/husband?


I have been a resident of one of these shelters in the past so i am more than aware that there are plenty of men that do not have respect for women - but that is not the majority of the male population and generalising men, and turning them into something we need to fight against, is one of my problems with feminism.


I have the utmost respect for the womens rights and liberation movements and thank them for the opportunities their campaigning has awarded me today as a woman.

I believe in equal opportunities for women, but i do not identify myself as feminist. Just the same way i believe in animal rights, but i do not identify myself as vegan or an animal activist because i do not condone some of their their methods nor do i agree with everything they say.

I am an individual and i do not need a label to believe in myself as a worthy human being.


I dont remember saying that is has. I dont think that the liberation of women has changed the traditional family structure, but i do believe modern society needs to take a step back and look at the effects of "no parent" families on children.

I do not believe a child should be raised by a child-minder, and it is sad that demanding jobs and high mortgage prices mean that often both parents must work full time. I have no preference to which parent stays at home, nor do i feel that staying at home means giving up work.


These things are thanks to the womens rights movement, which i have already stated i am truly thankful for.


I'm English and i currently live in London, though i have also lived in Liverpool (my home town), Birmingham and Hereford, all of which differed socially in terms of gender roles - but then gender roles are, for me, a whole separate issue.

My future may well be in Poland, but i'm already aware of the struggles i may encounter, not just as a woman but as an individual that does not conform to societies norms (I have tattoo's, blue hair, 2 wonderful children before marriage, a partner that is not the father of my children, and a job that although home-based, often requires me to travel outside of the UK).

Change is needed almost everywhere, but that doesn't mean i have to agree with the tactics used.


Not true. Men still have to fight for the right to be anything other than the socially accepted male gender role, just as women do.

Edit:


I have a feeling we're going to be moved to the off-topic section ;o)

I will get back later on this. I have to do some stuff now and won't have time to respond until later tonight, but I will respond :)


Blue hair? Yikes :))))

>^..^<

M-G (grin, but in a hurry)

It used to be purple, pink and green ... blue is my conservative look ;o)

Edit: i look forward to your reply. Intelligent debate is something i enjoy, though i certainly had to lurk here a while before i came across one i felt inclined to join.

Women can do that too you know. When I see a lot of married guys I can't help but feeling sorry for them sometimes! I mean those guys who are constantly working in their gardens and fixing everything around the house whenever it's Summer, just because their wives want a remake of the whole house again. (I can think of better ways to spend holidays, really!) Or how about those girls who only date a guy because of all the things he has? Don't you think they see a guy as a useful tool? Okay, I just mean to say I pretty much agree with those sentiments, but then again the exact same behaviour could apply to a woman aswell, so I'd hardly call that an argument.


You don't actually have to prove that, because our generation already knows that.

;)

But ofcourse I don't mean to discourage you or anyone else, so by all means, go ahead and be all you can be. (I know I'm trying to do the same!)


I like you already.


Maybe I'm a bit naive, but I really think that common sense and simplicity may provide a solution to most of our problems. I mean, why do people always think about a revolution when you mention the word change a little too often?


Yup.


We already were moved dear, but let's just pretend Admin didn't move us? You certainly make sense and you're definitely contributing interesting reading material, so I really don't see why this little detour about feminism and meninism should get us into trouble?

;)