Latest relationship drama in Polonia/USA...

The basics:

- Her sister is a crazed alcoholic, over 30 and living with her mother
- Her sister is insanely jealous of my GF's youth, beauty, and happy relationship with me
- Her sister has brainwashed their mother to become opposed to our relationship
- Literally everyone except these two females is hugely supportive of "us"
- I still have to ask her mother for permission to marry (her dad has been gone for 20 years)
- Both mom and sister are big talkers and backstabbers in private, while smiling to your face
- When her mother has money, she becomes really ******; when she wants something from you she's really nice and sweet

Her sister and mother have no idea that my family actually has money, houses, etc but are convinced that I am cheap. See, when they try to order me around and demand that I buy them presents, or cars, whatever, I refuse and this makes them angry. They tell my GF "you deserve better" and that "we only care about your happiness", while also insulting her and making bizarre comments designed to hurt her feelings and undermine her confidence. The criticisms they make about us are really reflections of everything going wrong in their own relationships and lives.

My GF, meanwhile, is the sweetest, happiest woman you could ever meet. She works hard and has a great attitude about life, despite having some tough times growing up in Poland. I could only love her, but I'm disappointed that I can't count on her family to be anything but a problem. If my GF wasn't so amazing I'd just take off and find someone else -- which is exactly what they want. They want her to be miserable, in a bad financial situation, and with no man in sight. So, she's going to cut them off until they calm down, and if they just can't seem to let it go, then they'll end up losing her forever.

I can sort of understand where they're coming from, though. Swinging back from defeating Communism to totally embracing Capitalism and the decadent materialism of the West. It's a pity. I have a great family and they'd be lucky to be associated with it, but I refuse to be flashy and materialistic like them. And I absolutely will not take orders from a woman, especially those two.

At this point I'm expecting her mother will refuse to give me permission to marry. But I will marry my GF regardless.

But to want to cripple their best child to be miserable like them.... WHY? Does this have anything to do with the Slavic soul? Or is it just a twisted mind that has nothing to do with Polish (or more accurately, Polonian) culture?

Any advices?

Just take off & have a destination wedding.

It looks like you have this pretty much figured out, but have you considered, if you gf works hard and the mother and sister are such hags, why has she not moved out? Or, and this is not always true, but true enough times, the fact that daughters usually turn into their mothers, eventually? Or, what does "I'll not take orders from a woman" mean? Does mother try to order you around, or do you just interpret it this way? How old is this girl? Has she been in a serious relationship before? If so, what happened?

My GF lives with me. The sister/mother/mother's 3rd husband live together... they are miserable and we are super happy. And yes, the mother literally tells me what to spend my money on, how much to spend, and to do X/Y/Z or else I'm no longer a real man. It's hilarious to me, but it's stressing out my GF and I would rather not have to see this whirlwind of estrogen happening just because I've shown up on the scene, you know?

As for the GF's past relationships, she's had at least one serious one but it ended badly, coincidentally, after a similar round of ridiculous antics from these two. But I'm made of tougher stuff.

And sure, girls turn into their mothers... but I'm not going to turn into her father. He was a bad man and this brought out the dark side of both her mother and her sister.


That's probably what will happen. Earlier they had told me they were going to pay for a big wedding, but I don't believe them. We're probably going to do something private on my side. I shudder to think of them getting wasted, blaspheming the ceremony, and starting fights at the reception.

Blood is thicker than water, especially in Polish families.

For all your youthful optimism, don't forget that you can't win.

Dude you sound like you're lying and not telling us everything about yourself. Sounds to me like they've figured out you're a loser and you're worried she'll dump you. If she is pretty and successful you're aiming too high and need to find yourself a quote 'trash ******' Is this why you went for a immigrant girl thinking she and her family wont know??? c'mon man it's the same in Europe and any civilized country.

50% of the time they turn into their fathers :)


very true

If I wrote a long message, you'd yawn and say tl;dr. I kept it short to help you make it easier to hurl insults, not to write a novel about my life history.

Troll.

delphiandomine


You may very well be right... though I'm not that young, actually.

Dayum, Pennboy, stomp on the guy! The worse I could think of him is that he wants her family to pay for a wedding, that's why he cares what they think.

f stop


Ha. Well, I posted a previous thread here about the wedding issue. I happen to know it is traditionally her family's responsibility to pay for the wedding, and the sister tried to embarrass me in front of the family by asking me how much I planned to spend on it -- on my very first visit there. So I took that as a power-challenge and turned the whole situation around to show that I have backbone.

As I said in this thread, though, I don't actually care about any sort of expensive wedding. I care about my GF and they can all go straight to hell, at her behest I might add, if they insist on being money-grubbing a$$holes.

I'm a good guy, really. I'm not Polish, and no doubt my chick is way hotter than PennBoy's anyway.

It wasn't my intention to be mean but I know a similar Polish-American couple and the story is almost identical. What I suggested about him was exactly what that guy was. Every family want the best for their brothers and sisters if a girl is attractive, smart, educated has a career she has the option of being with attractive and successful men. No one should ever marry just for money but if a guy has almost nothing c'mon, she's out of your league. I'm pretty cute but I don't drive a Benz that's why I know I have to settle for 7s, or 8s not dimes. It's just the way the world is.

well, she's living with him, so she's in his 'camp' already. Maybe he could be admired for trying to win her family over, to make it easier on her. Polish family ties run deep..

Chrysalis, have you sat down with them and a bottle of vodka and tried charming them? I know some people of similar caliber that won't trust you if you won't get drunk with them, at least once. How much older are you?

Hahaha,dude....

PennBoy, I never said I had nothing, and just because I never said that doesn't mean your random guess is correct. You are right about one thing: a man with nothing to offer is out of her league. But that's not me, and it's wrong of you to suggest it so strongly with zero evidence. Just because you know some loser personally doesn't make me a loser. OK?

I'm seven years older than she is. Not a huge amount, but certainly enough to be admired by other men my age. I have a good career, a good family, and a fairly interesting life. She is an 8.5 in terms of looks (blonde, tall, gorgeous face, hyper-feminine body). People always stare at her and she gets hit on constantly. Her sweet disposition and good character, though, that pushes her up to a solid 10 from my perspective. Not only that, but she hit on me first. After that she tested me relentlessly for five months, after which she grabbed on tight and said she'd be with me forever if that's what I want.

RE: vodka.... you know, f stop, that's a great idea. I've gotten tipsy with them but never actually drunk. You've given me a good idea here. I should find not just vodka but really excellent stuff and drink it with them. I really appreciate the thoughtful advice. THANK YOU.

The main problem seems to be that I've been judged without them having the facts; they've assumed the worst about me because my woman is choosing me over them. They're so used to slapping her around and now that they're losing their grasp on her they are starting to panic.


Hehe. Fair enough. I was just trying to be empathic towards them; hopefully you can appreciate my effort (which was sincere). This family seems to fit that stereotype of wanting to look rich in order to impress the extended family back in Europe, even to the point that they cause each other financial pain in order to maintain that crucial image. For my part, I hide my family assets because that's how I was raised: that it's tacky and low-class to talk about money. This amounts to a huge cultural clash with her family, which grew up poor and now is all about looking rich.

Get sloshed, pass out under the table. LOL! Be carefull though, that wódka is the Polish truth serum. If the wolf does not come out, they're gonna love you.

Oh, and don't talk about the role of a wife or any stuff like that. Keep asking them for stories of their lives. If they insist that you talk about yourself, talk about some sad stories from your childhood.

Man, you are ignorantelly (no offence meant) stereotyping people because of their ethnicity."Communism and embracing Capitalism" has nothing to do with the way they act.It has also nothing to do with them being Polish and you being American.We both know there is plenty of Americans driving cars they can not afford but they want to impress others.Some people are like that and you can easily find them among any and every nation.I tell you a story from my family.In 1978 in "communist" Poland my Grandpa started a small private company (you won't believe it but some people in "communist" Poland had private bussineses) and ran it with his 2 sons (my uncles).Fast forward to 1986 in still "communist" Poland, one of my uncles is driving 2 years old Mercedes Benz and the other Polish made FSO Polonez.They both had exactly the same income.Fast forward to 2010, Poland no more "communist", both of my uncles are milioners (in USD terms),one of them is driving 2009 BMW and the other is driving 1995 VW Passat.Do you think I am having a "cultural clash" in my family?I don't think so because they both Polish, more than that, they are brothers from the same father and mother.It's just that one of them likes to show off and the other don't give a ****.

grubas


Good story, thanks. You're right, I don't know much, and I do appreciate the lesson. As you say, some people feel the need to show off and look rich, and others don't. In my case, her mom/sister are very much that way, and I'm not. Your story doesn't help me much, though. If anything it illustrates what delphiandomine said, that blood is thicker than water (and that I cannot win).

f stop


I hope so. What worries me is how mercurial they are... one day hot, and cold the next. Her mother is quite passive-aggressive, so even if I do win her over the evil sister will be right there once I leave, twisting her against me once again. Like Wormtongue in Lord of the Rings.

One thing I wonder about, is if it will be extra impressive if I ask for permission to marry at a moment when I know the mother is particularly pissed off at me, or if I should be more careful and wait for things to blow over. I'm somewhat inclined to "call her bluff" and show up when she'd least expect it: when she knows I know she's upset. Then bust out the wódka and go for some real talk.

I'd like to try and get across to them that while I respect their values, mine are different and that's something they're just going to have to accept. I will never tell them any details about my financial assets, or any other details for that matter; I've learnt that once they have information, they will use it against me/her for their own manipulative games.

I will also not be joining the matriarchy they've established for the last three generations (and probably longer). My GF wants nothing to do with that lifestyle anyway; she knows all too well that all their marriages are in shambles precisely because the women are in charge.

Meanwhile the only one calling the shots in my own life is me, and it just so happens that my GF wants to come along for the ride. I'm not joining their family; she is joining mine. I don't want to rub this in their face at all, but, I'm not going to act submissive or bow down. And she loves this. Needs it, in fact. She wants something different for her life and that's why she chose me. Meanwhile I have to be true to myself and show them I'm a real man, and a real man does not cave in to female demands. I know they'll hate this because they are used to commanding men. BTW, among other things the mother told me (literally) that in her family, the women command the men to hand over all their money, and the men do what they are told.

LOL!

Anyway, I've experienced some of their tough talk before, and weathered it well. Regardless I shall also take your advice and avoid talking about things like the proper role of a wife. I also have some good, sad stories of my childhood to share.

Be careful.

As I said - blood is thicker than water. You might find that one day, push comes to shove and you decide to cut contact with her family - only for her to choose them rather than you.

You can't win here - don't even try to.

In my experience Polki do not listen to their mothers too much(unfortunately).

In my experience they generally do that quite a lot. Especially those who live outside the big cities.

Whoa! That is a warning bell right there. I'm beginning to see what the problem might be. You're not talking about a relationship, which involves a lot of compromises on both sides. Whether you are male or female is completely immaterial when couples make decisions. For example, the one more organized or less of a procrastinator, or with more time, gets involved in actual process of paying bills. Damn, I'd be worried about my daughter, too. Looks like she's going from one controlling person to another. Sorry, dude.

Sounds like you have similar polish in laws as me you are too nice about that wedding. I have been treated like cinderella every time I am at the inlaws homestead in poland. but i do stand up to the mam and the sisters like they have never imagined, i would of done the things I did I know where it hurts them and what they care most about is the approval of the villagers and the extended family everything they do is for the benifit of the what others opnions are. Oh and the approval of the church.

Been in a marraige to somone from this type of family is so stressfull. Somthimes I think we should never go back to poland again and forget about all his family overthere. But other times I give in and go to the village but there is such jealously from the other villages of my husband in there eyes he has made it. My husbands mother now heavly relying on her elderly parents to act as her driver and to listen to all the dramas which I am sure are dramas concerning me. So my husbands anuts and uncles feel he should return to take some of the pressure of them.

Good luck in your married life and your struggle with the inlaws.

f stop

I think I probably over-stated my position there. I didn't mean that I rule the relationship with an iron fist, I meant specifically regarding the orders that her mother tries to hand down to me. The whole issue here is that her mother is literally telling me what to do, and tell my GF as well. That is what will never fly, and refusing to click my heels and do exactly what her mother says can't possibly mean that I'm a bad/controlling guy. We are in this relationship for ourselves, not for her or her sister. None of this "refusing to bow down to her mother" stuff would even be an issue if her sister and mother weren't working together to make trouble. And I know this is a bad sign.

Still, the fact is there's been no discussion about what I'm describing here between me/her and her mother/sister. I've been quite diplomatic and smooth the entire time, so I've given no hints as to anything controversial and there's no reason for them to have developed any worry about such things. For them it's only about them trying to figure out how much money exists on my side of the family, based mainly on how much cash I spend on them. I'm sharing my inner thoughts here on PF, not my visible behavior.

The reality is that my GF and I both work and will continue to; she wants a career and I have no problem with it, especially in today's global economy. We are very compatible and happy together. It's not about some ultra-conservative relationship where I make all the decisions and she's all humble in the kitchen. She's a strong-willed Polish woman and woe be unto me if I ever betrayed her. We do decide things together, and yes, if I feel that strongly about something important, she doesn't have a problem with me having the final word because she is not a feminist. So I apologize for getting that wrong idea across, that is my fault; I was really only trying to say that I won't let her mother or sister control our lives or dictate our value system.

I'm only trying to express my frustration with the attempts at dominance over me by the mother, which is only happening through the manipulation by the sister. Once again I apologize if what I got across here was that I'm somehow controlling over my woman or some knuckle-dragging 1950s archetype.

What I'm about is being in control of myself, making me a stable, consistent, and reliable partner in a relationship. I know how to conduct myself in a long-term relationship, how to talk about things and not be combative. I actually thought people would be more interested in my resistance to the matriarchy, but nobody responded regarding that.

Anyway, I gave the wrong impression with that defiant-sounding paragraph and I apologize.

delphiandomine

Could you please explain in a little more detail? What seems to be happening is she is choosing me over them, and I'm being aloof and not rubbing anything in their face or getting in the way. They are all avoiding each others' phonecalls and texts, it's like I have nothing to do with it whatsoever. My GF tells me all the time she is all too willing to cut off her contact with them; there are no other family members in the USA, and the ones back in Poland appear to be on our side because her mother has always been the rebel of the extended family.

What I'm wanting for is to be accepted and for them to stop being so superficial and materialistic, which is particularly frustrating because I've already been accepted by everyone officially, but over time the sister has slowly introduced jealousy into the equation because my GF has never been in a more serious relationship than the one she's in with me. One that could actually result in marriage.

Are you saying that if there's ever a disagreement between me and her family members, to just give up on the entire relationship and lifetime of marriage? Just like that? That seems unfair, as if I'm inconsequential and have nothing to offer or influence here.

sister act

Thanks a lot... it sounds like you really understand what I'm trying to say. If it weren't for this problem, my GF would be too good to be true! It's like she's perfect, except for this one thing which happens to be really major and so now all of a sudden things look pleasantly normal. Hence my post here, to try and get some advice on the cultural level. The idea you raise about approval from the extended family and the village definitely sounds familiar... especially the jealousy.

Before I came into the picture, my GF was in a bad financial situation and working 100 hours per week, and after I showed up everything has really improved. She is very happy now, and all her friends, as well as the extended family members, are on our side. It's only the sister, who has always been against us, and now lately the mother, who before was quite supportive. It really comes down to the jealousy thing. The sister is driving herself insane with envy, as she's always been the dominant older sister and very competitive, and now it's looking like she is not going to be married first.

Again I just want to apologize to everyone reading this who get the idea that I'm some sort of controlling fascist in my relationships. I promise I'm not. I am stubborn though and I resent un-just treatment from two jealous people who should be very happy about where things are going.

It's the weirdest dynamic -- when my GF is unhappy, unhealthy, and in a bad spot in life, her sister and mother blossom with joy. When my GF is happy and healthy, suddenly they become enraged with jealousy and start obsessing over ways to tear her down and make her miserable.

Chrysalis


I made a typo here. I meant to say, "We are in this relationship for ourselves, not for her mother or her sister."

Dude please I doubt you're anywhere near like you've described yourself. If the mother and sister don't want you to be with their daughter/sister they obviously figured you out and know you're the wrong one for her. You're 7 years older than her? why didn't you get married sooner? were the previous girls and their families quick to label you a loser and get you out the picture?

I told my inlaws around the time of our wedding when they interfeared that I was not joining his family he was not joining my family we are starting our own family with our rules and tradations/customs that suited us no one eles

.


Ok I have a polish princess mother inlaw and two sisters in law who are all out to break up my marraige and get there brother back to take care of them as the years go on we have children they of course only get worse with time. If you are going in to this you have to be ruthless video tape and record as much converstions as you can if they ask you for anything ask them to do it in writing. For example my sisters in laws the day after out wedding knew we had recievied gifts of money started trying to trick my husband in to giving some of our which the fool did and gave her 1000 euro, a few months ago I asked her for the money back her the mam and the other sister shouting and screaming that we never game them any money and that I was lying and they would never of ask us for money the day of the wedding. My husband was just standing there with his mouth open he could't believe they were lying he gave the money and I had a few words with my sis in law when I found out about it not about the money but about the timing of her request for the money back when it happed.

Same again my husband finances changed for the better when he met me I got him a good job at the time a car and he moved in to my house which cased a lot of jealously with the family. I thought at least his mother would be happy that her son came to Ireland with nothing and did well for himself but she had her eye on what he had for herself and her daughters


Same as me but there is always a price to pay in this world and my inlaws are my price

I also noticed that some polish mothers and sisters are thirsty for money but what happens when the mother is hotter than her daughter?Anyway this is irrelevant.But usually mothers like me they push their daughters to me.

Well what happens if the daughter inlaw is way hotter than the mother inlaw and the sisters in law together.

I've been there and back. IMHO the best advice is to charm and finesse them. Never go toe-to-toe with the mom and her side. You will lose and it will not garner you and browny points for the future. Take it from this American: charm, finesse and take f-stops' advice and smoke the peace-pipe stary :) btw it's much more fun.

PennBoy

You amuse me, PennBoy. I've read many of your other posts around here and you have a very simple view of male-female relations. You see it as being purely about money, and that if a woman is with a man it's because of his wallet, plain and simple. You said in this thread that nobody should marry just for money, but elsewhere on PF you've contradicted yourself perfectly: that is exactly what you think. I disagree, and I disagree strongly enough to put considerable effort into attracting hot women and winning over their families anyway. If you think it's "obvious" they've figured me out, your mind is no more complex than your primitive philosophy.

I haven't bragged about myself at all on PF; haven't told you about my accomplishments, what I do, or who my parents are. Don't worry yourself about it -- I'm doing fine. I don't need to rub your face in my excellent qualities to feel better about myself. Obviously, Internet tough guys like you tend to find this pretty difficult to grasp.

Regarding your other questions: I didn't get married sooner because my mom taught me not to get married before age 30. I don't know how it is where you live, but where I grew up, girls always liked older guys because of their experience and stability. I chose to date around, build my career, and take personal risks in my 20s in order to build myself. Lo and behold, after age 30 I suddenly became a lot more interesting to attractive women with options. I was smart not to tie myself down too early. I'm used to women wanting to get married, whose families absolutely loved me, and now I've found someone that I feel ready to settle down with.

Problem?

sister act

That is an amazing story... I'm so glad you're posting here, it's like you're experiencing the same things I am, you're just further down the road. You'd probably not be surprised at what these people do. They play this game where they all work really hard and earn good money, saving as much as they possibly can, but then they shame my GF into giving them her own money so they don't have to dip into their savings for whatever monthly expense. Like some sort of sick game. Meanwhile the mother and her sisters take turns tricking their mother (my GF's grandmother) into changing her will around as they fight over their future inheritance before the grandmother is even dead yet. In my family we simply do not behave this way.

Then there's again the jealousy over my GF's life getting better since I came into the picture. You are describing pretty much exactly what I'm experiencing. I'm glad someone out there can appreciate what I'm dealing with. Thanks so much for sharing your story...


And that's once again exactly what's happening here. Her mom was quite pretty when she was younger, and my GF's sister is also very pretty. They have those long Slavic legs that Southern is always talking about, as well as everything else a man could want. But my GF is considerably more attractive then either of them, and she's also the youngest. Even my own mom (a feminist with a Ph.D.) says it is painfully obvious that the basic issue here is jealousy.

rybnik

Thanks, rybnik. I've decided this is precisely what I'm going to do. I'm also not going to wait until the drama settles down. Instead, I'm going to march in there while things are at their hottest, get the entire family together, and make peace. I'm quite the charmer and her mom is always flirting with me shamelessly; thanks to the comments here I'm building a conversation in my mind that will neutralize the sister at least long enough to meet the expectations of their family traditions.

F-stop, if you're still reading.... I'm trying to strike the right balance in my relationship with a positive masculine presence. I hope I haven't lost your support. =)

I'm here! I just spent 6 hours kayaking in 100 deg F, full sun. I think I'm having a heat stroke.
I'm still a bit bothered by statements like this: "she wants a career and I have no problem with it, especially in today's global economy.", as if she needed some justification to have a career... but, I think you'll do all right. Just remember, the "overcompensatory masculine behaviours", or having problems taking orders from a woman, usually are a sign of an insecure man. Don't concentrate so much on whether it is a man or a woman talking - look at the content first. And ask yourself this, if it was the father (imaginary, concerned father), instead of her mother giving you the runaround, would you do anything differently?