Racism and for what? (story of Egyptian guy's living in Poland)

So in fact you're quoting from a polemicist with extreme views in orederbasically to troll. Not unusual among some of the more, well, 'special' posters here.

Of course you do, as does anyone else. While you are not a short timer, you are nonetheless not Polish and have no more right to tell another Polish person what to think or say than I have to tell you what to think or say. You dismissed one person's right to an opinion and say what she wants yet tout yours. It comes across as hypocritical.

Sure, here's the man's bio.

usip.org/experts/jok-madut-jok

A fellowship from the Woodrow Wilson center, a PhD from UCLA. He must have had really extreme views to obtain them.

You differentiate between "Polska A i B" ....!?

Isn't that the very same kind of prejudice and intolerance you claim to have exploded over??

Educate them all?? How arrogant is that!!

By your logic ....All those defined as Polish B are stupid and need education.

Perhaps if the girl had said.....All Arabs smell so i'd like to wash them it would have been more palatable for you???

Beep - wrong! No they don't


I don't or condone rapes, nor do I say that Poland is racist based on one racist incident. Nor even have I said that Egypt is a 'tolerant paradise'. You're not having a very successful day are you?


Well I hate to rain on your parade here but despite the initial stories, she wasn't actually raped. Beaten, yes, but not raped. This is not to excuse the men who beat her but the story was unreliable. Incidentally, if you read further, it turns out that she was saved by a group of Egyptian women who took her to a group of Egyptian soldiers who took her to hospital. Well, looks like you are wrong again, Midas.

You may well not say this but the original poster did.


You may well not have said this either but again the original goes on to imtimate that in his country this incident would never have happened and yet we all know for a fact it has, it does and it will happen.

The fact remains, and I stand by my original point that he can't come on here saying he was wrong in his original preception that Poland was a racially tolerant, open minded country and after an unsavoury incident that its entire population were now actually one in the same as those that beat him.

It is sheer idiocy to claim that the entire population of 38 million plus Poles are racist.

What is worse is the fact that some fool then comes on here to defend his stance and goes on to state that Poland B are stupid and in need of education. Thereby, demonstrating the very same intolerance that saw the original poster racially assaulted (Assuming it was racist attack. It may be that they were just looking to beat someone for sport. We only have the original posters word that it was racially motivated).

I was living in Brussels up to a few months ago and was attacked by 4 moroccans on a tram. I dispatched of them easily and one now sports a nice scar that will remind him for the rest of his life of his stupidity. Do I now automatically label all moroccans as racist, intolerant and narrow minded???? Of course not. These 4 individuals were not representative of an entire nation no more than those that beat the original poster were representative of the average Pole.

It is the original poster who demonstrates a lack of understanding and open-mindedness.

Poland is no different to any other country. Racist attacks happen all over the world. They are a fact of life and occurs on both sides of the divide. Black/White, Muslim/Christian, Wallonian/Flemish, Hutu/Tutsi.........etc etc etc.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Indonesian_beheadings_of_Christian_girls
Poland is quite different.

bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12101748
Another tolerant paradise, different to Poland.

You need to read my responses in their entirety.

I made similar counter arguments when the OP suggested his country was virtually faultless and such events would never happen.

I see someone has to work on their sarcasm detector.


Well, let's start by saying you need to clean your ears ASAP. I linked this interview:

cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7364550n

4:20 she describes an ongoing sexual assault,

4:40 says how she was pulled away from the camera crew by the mob,

5:25 mentions how her clothes were torn off her,

6:10 claims that she really feared for her life,

7:30 says a sexual assault is going on and that someone ( not specified ) was "inside her", then goes on to say that after that she was fighting for her life for roughly 20 minutes,

8:55


- more hearing problems I see, the interview material makes it clear the soldiers only intervened after the pleas from Lara Logan's camera crew.

11:09 downright says she was treated in the hospital for days also for injuries to her intimate parts.

So there you have it, I don't know where exactly rape starts in your own private Idaho, but for most people when a woman mentions the attacker was "inside her" and gets treated for days in the hospital also due to "intimate injuries" - that usually warrants a bit more of a reaction than a casual shrug of shoulders.

In legal terms UK nowadays indeed differentiates between "rape" and "sexual assault", some countries don't. Poland is amongst them, art. 197 of the Polish Criminal Code covers what can be loosely translated to both "rape" and "sexual assault".

In this light, I don't really understand your cool and casual attitude pertaining to this incident and you saying the story ( I presume - words coming out of her mouth since I linked the interview ) is "unreliable" is simply low. Wonder how would you feel if your loved was assaulted or raped and the officer assigned to the case dismissed her story as unreliable.


Exactly the above. The TS acts as if he stepped down from heaven and was assaulted by a bunch of Polish savages, then goes on to claim that nothing like this would happen in egypt.

I called BS on that, provided proof and we saw the usual routine that ( complain all you want ) fits into a certain stereotype rather well. First the people who say the TS isn't right and provide proof are right away being called racists by the TS ( p. 2, ell's post ), which is pretty much a threat going along the lines "Don't disagree with me or I'll cry RACISSS". Then we're being fed a bunch of lines that the incident used to prove a point ( whose existence was initially denied altogether by TS - "nothing like this would happen in egypt" ) is supposedly an isolated case and shouldn't be taken into account. Of course while doing so the TS regrettably fails to notice the stark contrast, between the fact that he easily managed to brand a whole country ( Poland in this case ) based on one isolated case of battery, while at the same time claiming one shouldn't draw any conclusions about his place of birth due to the fact that over a 100 guys sexually assaulted a woman for being white and blonde over there. Hypocrisy which again, some might say, fits a certain stereotype.

That's how such discussions usually go down. Also, should someone ask the TS how would a white guy fare if he walked around some egyptian city for two hours and publicly made out with an egyptian woman he'd probably receive some kind of BS answer that would have nothing to do with reality whatsoever.

However, ell's true colors shine through once he learns I'm Jewish. Out comes a very long rant ( wonder if he was actually frothing at the mouth when he typed ) which is highly charged with negative emotions to say the least. It does give everyone a hint about what would actually happen to me if I walked around egypt flaunting my backgroud, or, heaven forbid, publicly kissed an egyptian woman and encountered ell and his 5 friends back on their home turf.

That is evident in the text you quoted. He wouldn't be the first extremist to get a PhD, would he? Interesting he's there and not here. So basically nothing you have said alters the fact that racism has throughout history largely been a white on black thing. As I said originally.

And the racially motivated conflict in Sudan ( whose existence I assume you try to deny by contradicting established academic sources and saying there is only one race in Sudan ) of course has everything to do with the evil whitey?

Yes. Black Africans, some Arabised Muslims (there was a policy of Arabisation which your 'source' evidently dislikes) some not.


Really? It's rather more complex than that, although the colonial years left an awkward legacy. However this is a side issue, a drop in the ocean of racism; an evil for which the blacker one's skin the more likely one is to suffer.

You've just been proven wrong, especially in the Sudan case ( hold on to that thought about one race, lol ) where academic sources directly contradict what you wrote and now you're just having a bad case of last-word-itis.

Don't worry, it will pass.

Not at all.


A polemicist with an axe to grind. But nice for you that you have so much free time to trawl the internet looking for quotes.

And you're still wrong - racism is largely a white on black phenomena.

Well, those of us who actually have any background in proper debating techniques and academia use sources.

Trying to ridicule use of sources is very mature on your part.

Wait, so is saying a professor at an established university who published books on the subject is wrong and you're right :-)

Plus, I have to mention a little process called "peer-review" that you might not be aware of, but it takes place somewhere during the publication process of most papers and books written by academics. Google it. Peer review does ensure a "polemicist with an axe to grind" doesn't get to publish unfounded lies and bullshit.


Nope ( there, using the same "arguing" technique that you use ).

More than just trying. Your 'source' is an extremist political exile.

Anyway, tell us why you think that racism 'isn't' largely a white on black thing.

I do believe you are confusing racism with race subjugation....No!?

I'm inclined to lean towards the opinion once a race is subdued then racism manifests itself. That is irrefutable. Let's be honest, Britain didn't decide to set sail around the world supressing the natives of those lands simply because of the colour of their skin. It was about furthering their self interests. It was about plundering the riches available. To be able to do this they had to crush any resistance and with that came the enslavement of the native/indiginous peoples. Of course only possible because in most cases we were more advanced than the nations we were conquering. Military ordnance against spears has only one outcome.

I also believe racism now is different to racism of yesteryear. The chai wallah then, was a member of a conquered people and would have been derided by his colonial master differently to how an Indian would be racially abused now for example. The Indian, the African are no longer subjugated or sold into slavery. Now, I think racism is more violent and hateful, whichever side of the divide.

My source - professor Jok Madut Jok - is an established member of the academia, who defended his doctoral thesis at a university which probably wouldn't even let you study for a B.A. in wood cutting and is a recognized expert on the issue who publishes books on the subject.

You're a regular joe with no expertise in the matter.

My bet is with him being right and you being wrong. By the way, I wonder if you think you can pilot a space shuttle better than an astronaut too :-)

Also, it is quite interesting that you're trying to brand the guy an extremist only after your initial attempt at twisting what he wrote failed. Classy.


Already did.

Remember the British Empire (though they didn't call it that at the time) was rather a chaotic, unplanned thing. It was based on supporting British traders, especially after the Palmerston Doctrine was established. Essentially practical rather than ideological (though that certainly crept in later). And yes, there was a huge amount of racism. Less so than the French or Spanish Empires, far less so than among the Belgians, but it existed on a scale that is hard to believe today. To separate 'race-subjugation' from racism is rather disingenuous - the victims suffer however it is described.


Very far from that.


He 'brands' himself as an extremist, and nothing failed except your weak attempt at trolling. At least you're a little less abusive today.

Pretty much the very definition of regular joe. But by all means please throw in Your PhD about the social issues of Sudan in to contradict me.

You mentioned that you're in Sudan because you work in the petroleum industry.

Well, professor Jok Madut Jok most likely isn't there leaning over your shoulder and telling you where to look for oil, how to do it or which drill to use and generally making an ass out of himself by questioning your expertise.

So please be so kind and return the favour.

No, and that's no great loss. He's a political exile from the South, which is independent now.

But of course this is a trolling distraction, as per usual.

So anyway, what's your take on the topic of the thread - namely the racism that the Egyptian guy mentions that he experienced in Poland. Have you noticed anything like that in Poland?

Poland A and B is not racist.

Why is hoping to educate somebody arrogant?

I believe I have a right to say what my opinion is- and make an observation based on the amount of time I have lived here and my experiences with the general population.

Of course you do, as does anyone else. While you are not a short timer, you are nonetheless not Polish and have no more right to tell another Polish person what to think or say than I have to tell you what to think or say. You dismissed one person's right to an opinion and say what she wants yet tout yours. It comes across as hypocritical.

It is not an opinion when it is total bullsh*t. Arabs don't smell any more than any Polish family after consuming their Sunday obiad.

Her statement was pure stupidity and nothing more. Going in to the Kebab shop and judging somebody because they smell of the food after serving Polish people all day is obtuse. I am willing to bet this twat made this observation after meeting one Arab.

And once again the double standard of Poland for Poles- yet Poles can live the fcuk wherever they want and have the right to an opinion of the host country is exhausting.

pip


Here's a hint:

1 ) Saying "Madam, I don't think you're right. If you took your sweet time, read some books and maybe travelled to countries where arabs actually live you would quickly see that not all of them, in fact, stink"

That's called trying to educate someone.

2)


Now that's just being a rude, arrogant and condescending person.


Yes, that's tragic in fact.

I mean, it is not like Indians, Arabs, Africans or hell, even the English would share such a mindset < sarcasm >.

Having worked with enough Indians and having lived and travelled with enough Asian/Arab men to formulate a reasoned and balanced opinion the girl has a point. They do exude a certain odour which can be rather strong at times.

But back to your question......


Aside the fact that you think you are above those you define as Poland B and you imply they lack sufficient intellect, knowledge, experience, exposure, decorum for your liking you are also too stupid to be able to express yourself without resorting to profanities and expletives.

Good Night.

You don't need to work with them to testify this fact.

Midas


Like CBS news? Midas please

Being a man with better things to do than watch CBS (a member of Viacom?), I was intrigued to learn that an academic of your standing was relying on it so heavily and felt it worth investigation. Of course this shocking event in Egypt brings back memories of the rape and torture of Jessica Lynch in Iraq where it was a perfect example of how Arabs treat brave western women, and the media play a vital role in putting cases like ths under the spotlight.

Oh hang on a second - it turns out it was a complete lie! Oh is my face red. Ms Lynch was actually caught in an ambush and then taken to an Iraqi hospital to recover. The attack was nothing but propaganda.

But but .. this would mean that CBS is wrong and you are talking nonsense? God forbid


And maybe an unbiased souse? You are new to this game I see.

The funny thing is that Poles most likely do smell funny to Arabs or Blacks or East Asians, etc.
I asked my buddy this last year when I was back home, the conversation went something like this:

Me: Hey Faz, y'know how when you're standing in line and waiting to do whatever you can smell if a black person is behind you?

Faz: Yeah (tentatively)?
Me: I know this sounds racist but I don't care, it's honestly what I've noticed, seriously do you know what I'm talking about?

Faz: Yeah.
Me: And y'know, your people and other ethnicities of Pakistan and Afghanistan and India and well y'know your diet is distinct- y'know culturally speaking?

Faz: Well y'know F4, it's a little more complicated than that you see...At this point Faz explains the variances in the ethnic tribes which is of course was not dependent on political geography but rather physical geography and the diaspora that exists and as usual I have forgotten the differences between Jat, Desi and everything else:(...but yeah our diet definitely affects how we smell and I've heard it before that we smell like curry.

Me: Well y'know black people have that specific smell?
Yeah: Yeah I know what you mean.
Me: And Oriental or East Asian people have that smell, like, especially in their houses?
Faz: Loud and clear brother...wait are you saying our house smells like curry?!?
Me: No, no, no, I'd say so if it did, but that's not what I'm getting at.
Faz: Well what are you getting at?
Me: Well if everyone else has a specific smell then white people must have one too, right? I figure we don't pick up on it cause we're the majority here or maybe we are only sensitive to what other ethnicities smell like.

Faz: Well that's a good question F4 and I'm glad you asked me. The answer is YES! You can especially smell it in some people's homes. Some people have it more than others. I remember this one guy from wrestling, and he had the biggest white boy smell I've ever come across. He wasn't dirty or big or anything- he just really smelt like a white guy. It's a specific odour.

Me: I knew it! Do I have it bad?
Faz: Not really man, maybe you're diet is different though.
Me: Yeah, I need to eat more...

I enjoyed typing that out cause I could pretend I was listening to Faz talk- he's got a way with people...kind of like me but in the opposite direction:)

But to summarize that for anyone who thought FRAT. All ethnicities have their own specific odour and to some people it stinks. Perhaps it's dependent on diet and perhaps it's genetic but the phenomenon does exist.

My guess is diet.. I've lived in different places with different kinds of cousines which at the beginning I had difficulty in getting used to. After a while, I smelled differently. However, you may say travelling folks or same community immigrants smell same. But, it is due to they aren't changing their meals. Meal/food habit is one of most addicted habits. Sudanese, for ex, will eat their halva (a sweet something like turkish delight cooked with butter) wherever they go.

The odor of the cassolette depends on many factors but its overtones are related to haircolor and not any specific ethnicity, as for other human odors I suggest avoiding them.