Who is poor in Poland?

That's right.


International organizations, banks and all use new cars sales as one of the indicators describing countries' level of economical development but Delphi knows better, Delphi the innovator :)) So Mr Delphi, what's the "value of the cars on the road" in comparision with other European countries ?

There are 196 countries in the world and the above applies to each one of them. It all depends on the individual.

Have you ever been to a third world country?


I would consider Poland to be middle European.

There's plenty of well educated people earning terrible salaries in the UK for instance - academics in London, anyone?

Switzerland is one of the very few countries where people working "lowly" jobs are earning enough to live on.

Definately not. One may be for example a credit risk analyst in Poland and make 2500 PLN a month, the same job in Germany pays 2500 EUR and gives as much or more disposable income monthly as annually in Poland. That's the difference.


Whay do you ask ? You want to prove that Poland is richer ? I've never said it isn't.


Interesting. I can think of 8 countries poorer than Poland (out of 46 I think) and most of them are either small or very small even by European standards.

How Poland could do well on her own?
Every single investment made these days in Poland in the public sphere is financed by the EU. Poland is a part of the EU too.

Today we went on a very agreeable boat trip from Warsaw to Serock. First sign in Serock: Beach side rebuilt and financed by EU funds.

Came back to Warsaw. Hit on anther yellow sign mentioning the construction of the second metro line. Financed by the EU.
Last weekend we went to my wife's family in Rabka-Zdrój. Who is financing Zakopiańska? The EU.
Which peanuts?
I think your Endacja mind cannot accept this.
Poland is a part of Europe, and not a part of redneck country. In PIS times the CIA tortured people here. But that stopped.

1,500 PLN in Poland, may go a lot further than 1,500 Euro in France. Poland is still inexpensive in comparison to many other European countries.


Because if you had travelled to third world countries, I would not expect you to consider life in Poland, anywhere near third world. ITS just my opinion having travelled to many third world countries, and living for over a year in two.


Grzegorz, I am NOT suggesting Poland to be as wealthy as Germany or Switzerland, my eyes are wide open in PL and I am in touch with what is going on at all levels. What are you using as your instrument/indicator of poverty/wealth. In my opinion debt to asset ratio is a good place to start.

Sorry, you are correct in your response, I'm sorry if I upset Antek but sometimes patience runs thin when you try to respond to certain comments. One agrees that there are rich people in Poland and certainly in central Warsaw all indicates that you are living in a modern country, but try going to a country town and things change, not in the sense of seeing people starving, but job opportunities and ability to get enough money to buy a house/apartment. Lets agree though that no person starves in Poland.

Yeah things are getting better in Poland.

But what you're forgetting is that the cost of living is drastically lower in the country towns. I can provide you with one great example.

In Poznan, you're looking at around 150-200k to get a small 2 room flat in an area with no decent public transport connections (basically, no train/tram). In towns such as Oborniki Wlkp. - the same money will buy you a large flat or small house. Don't forget that village traditions these days almost dictate handing over a vast amount of cash to newly wed couples - so they're well on their way to begin with. Anyway, the decline of the countryside is nothing new - the UK is a great example of this.

You also forget to take into account that many people in such small towns bought their properties really cheaply when they could - so they have no mortgage to pay, unlike city dwellers.

Poznan is a pretty big town and who wants to live in a place that has no public transport, the point I was trying to make is that (and that applies everywhere) is that you need to live in a major town to secure a career path/entertainment etc. There is nothing wrong with living in the country and as you correctly point out that food/housing is cheaper but that is good only in retirement.

In the West parents enrol there children to the best private schools to give them the edge in finding a career, in Poland living in a small country town can be a great disadvantage for children.

Some of those cheap housing blocks in the middle of nowhere can be a depressing sight. I would hate to live in one..

That is true. My grandmother had a farm in a tiny village near a small town and a distant cousin and myself went there last summer. We met some people who were other distant cousins and they did indeed appear to have a much harder time than those in the bigger cities.

But, as we both agree, no one was starving. And things were much better than in the recent past. There is land there sold for vacation or retirement and I could see it as a nice place for that, but not for a career.

Please prove it.


Prices of consumer goods are pretty much the same, housing is nominally cheaper (although compared to salaries much more expensive), utilities are little cheaper and on the rise, fuel is almost the same, the only things significantly cheaper are services provided directly by activities of individuals i.e. hair cut, massage, dental things etc. as simply the poorer a country is, the cheaper they are. Cost of living in western Europe is definitely higher than in Poland but I would say that depends on the country It is 40%-100% higher, definitely not a lot more than +400%.


Fascinating. What about the value of the cars on the road ?

If the argument put here by a few people that things are as good in Poland(economically) as they are in the west(which is nonsense),well, why is there mass emigration in Poland and not in France etc, why is there 2 million Poles in the Uk,why were Poles fllocking into Ireland.

What would happen if all the Poles returned home???

Who's making that argument? The argument is that while Poland is not as rich as the richest western countries that doesn't mean that it's poor (esp by world standards).

Another part of that argument is that generally living standards are increasing for most people and a lot (not all, maybe not most, but a lot) of the poverty that poverty does exist can be traced to dysfunctional behavior (chronic alcoholism, lack of family planning and/or education etc).

Enough with the strawman arguments.

Your comment on this subject is made only to make Poles angry , as everybody knows that simple and obvious fact that an educational level of polish schools is much higher than of those western European .

Polish Universities if it comes to a level of education are one of the best in the world , they just lack modern facilities in many cases or professors don`t place their works in English periodicals due to maybe lack of money or thinking it is just unnecessary.

The world rankings in this matter are worthless statistics because they repeatedly put on leading places the same well known univ on their lists ( I wonder who sponsors those web sites , you know who ! I have no doubts about it, personally ).

I hear that a lot of Japanese surgeons come to Poland for internships saying that they would never learn so much in any other country , just an example .

Polish programmers get an employment in Germany right away .
Polish math students score the best ranks in international competitions .
The sad thing is that they can`t get an employment equal to their qualifications and they leave Poland . It only proves that Poland can`t reduce the gap in just few years .

Some of you guys don`t understand a simple thing , don`t compare Poland to the richest European countries as I gave in my previous posts a reasonable explanation of reasons of such differences .

Years of backwardness can`t be eliminated in just 20 years of time span .

If someone doesn`t understand the essence this means that you just want to argue not understand a thing .

Sorry , but it was my last post on this subject as I dodn`t want to put more energy in pointless discussion .

Delphi and other have given their points regarding the automotive matters and I do not need to repeat ehat they've said.

I think the cars are mostly present in cities and towns, including very small towns or large villages. The visual proof for that is the A and B roads are just crammed with cars while C-class roads (xxx designation) are mostly empty.

I cannot comment on how the number of cars is translated to economic status of the country. What I can see is there is no adequate parking space in urban areas and principal roads are clogged with cars. I just wonder what would happen with one million of cars here - probably we drivers would die ;-) (This is just a casual comment, not economic consideration). Taken into account the exponential growth in number of cars in Poland and heavy road construction, one million of cars could be reached in 2 years, I think.


Then the whole Poland would become one massive traffic jam ;-)

I was recently in Paris for four days with my family, and I use this as a comparison. I will also be in Paris, between the 24th and 29th July,

two days in Eurodisney, two days in Paris, my cost forecast per day all inc flights, hotel, entrance pass ( Euro disney - museums ) travel ( train, taxi) food/soft drinks is 780 Euro per day for 2+2, not including shopping. Please note, we booked the flights in advance and the cost is 100 euro each return.

Is that the argument??
Who is poor in Poland?
The EU country that has the most people running from it since 2004


, is obviously very poor and far far far from being anywhere near the wealth of the richest..Thats why idiots on here are comparing Poland to Africa and the likes, and then saying things are great in Poland. As in every country in the world . This is a complete strawman angle, you are coming from.


far from true


The country would sink like the Titanic..

milky


Because they can!!!!...Last year, for the first time in their recorded history, more Dutch people left Holland (as opposed to those moving to the Netherlands) to move to such places as New Zealand, Australia etc. These people were professionals of 30+ with children who cited reasons for leaving as "safety" and not being willing to accept the "multi-cultural society" that was being forced on them". There were no "financial reasons" given for this exodus. A lot depends on which governments allow this freedom of movement. Ireland and the UK permitted anybody from the EU (and most of the rest of the world!!!), Australia and New Zealand restricted residence to people with the skills and a clean bill of health who would benefit their new homeland and not be a drain on public finance resources just after they arrived. For some strange reason, the EU and the UN has virtually accused Australia of being "racist", because they are selective about who they let in (asylum seekers are usually deported immeadiately).

One of the reasons cited by Australia can be explained By the following artical:-

dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1393814/Tuberculosis-TB-jab-thousands-babies-NHS-admits-infection-control.html

You may notice that Poland is not on the charts as an area of high infection, probably due to the difficulty and non-encouragement of Asian and African immigrants. Unlike the UK and Ireland, Poland does not give away free housing and cash benefits which also explains why Poland does not have thousands of asylum seekers clamouring to enter the country.

So Mark, if people want to move abroad and try and find a better quality of life then fair play to them, but, its not only the poor who do this. There are many reasons to uproot and they are not necessarily all about money. I thank God that people think that Poland is a poor country with no free handouts, it means that there is more chance that they will not try to come here.

And the obligatory immunisation of babies. TB used to be rife, and comparatively recently, too.

only about 95% move for economical reasons.


'think' hahah,...ulterior motives sing from your every word.

And have you ever heard of any Polish people being screened for health reasons on entering the UK?

Milky.

Sorry Mark, I do not understand gibberish, try explaining that comment to me in English. What alterior motives?

Average price of a flat in Greater London last year was £339,141source. The average wage in London last year was £33,384 source. The average wage in Warsaw is 55,200zl. In Warsaw "more than half of the prospective buyers want a two-room apartment and plan a budget of about zl.380,000 for it.". So a Varsovian needs to work for 6.8 years to buy a typical flat while a Londoner will need to work for 10.1 years to buy a typical flat.

But of course none of that applies to people who don't bother working and instead send their wife out to work.

Waffle Boy, you wanted to say in SLD times but it came out PiS just out of habit.

Just talking to a guy here in Lublin, he just got job, and today was his first day at work.Telesales job.Seven zloty an hour.

Please stop with the lies Mark. There is no way that the guy can be earning 7zl per hour: that would be about 75% of the legal minimum wage.

What level of education?
He would earn more by cleaning toilets, I presume.

He is just finished secondary school....
He may leave the job and go to Ireland, If he does I will name the place of work and you can ring them and ask how much they pay per hour.....

There's your answer. In a country with widespread free education available, anyone who doesn't even finish high school is always going to earn a pittance. The same, as in most countries.