Who is poor in Poland?

Poor people.

Right, what are we talking about next? How about we discuss the percentage chance that a plastic Pole is also an utter twat? Is it a 99.9% chance or a 99.95% chance? Or is it perhaps somewhere between those two extremes? What do you think?

I think that people should be judged on individual basis. Saying that I must admit that on PF there is a quite few peeps from America which fit your description.

I'm sure thought that there is even more a very decedent peoples with a lot to offer in terms of wisdom and balanced views.

Well obviously one has to do that. We have to remember that with some plastic Poles it is a 99.9% chance that they'll be an utter twat and with others it is a 99.95% chance that they will be.

Discuss poverty judged on individual cases. Do you know someone who is really poor in your neighbourhood? Describe.

no discuss peeps !
and no poverty but who is poor ; poverty doesn't equal poor !

Bollocks to private dentists in Poland, my dentist is NFZ registered and yet I can get an appointment with two/three days notice :) Very good she is as well - gentle, speaks English well, explains everything - I really can't ask for more.


He's Australian, seems to hate Poland (is he Jewish and thus fitting the stereotype?), seems to think that Polish "reality" consists of being too poor to afford food, etc etc. Usual Plastic Pole - he's Polish for the passport, but Australian for everything else.

(for what it's worth, I looked in one shop yesterday - apples were going for as cheap as 0.50zl/kg)

It does in English, Iron. But you're right, there's a distinction between bieda and nędza in Polish - key question: which one applies to this thread?

Exactamundo!

Those who insist on calling Poland poor are going to have to come up with an entirely new vocabulary in English to describe this

or this

jakarta.indymedia--09.jpg

Or this:
youtube.com/watch?v=MAKGMdVq5q4

Ironside, wake up. Get to some work instead of whining.

---


Well, my Dad was building Australia 1951-1957. Gone back home not after Stalin had died but only after my grandparents wrote him he could return home safely. My Dad was a worker and a tram conductor in Australia. In Poland he became a clerk and manager, FWIWW. And well, there were women in Poland ;-)))))))))

In order Buenos Aires, Manila and Jakarta (there are lots worse pictures of living conditions that make those look not too bad but I didn't wanna bring everyone down to much).

they won't last long now - it's nothing but an apple sale

exactly


That is why the Polish will start to move to Germany(big time) if the government don't start governing the country and dealing with the main issues like housing and wages.


idiot,,thats like saying someone with the flu, that they are not really ill, because you know people with Aids.

When, Mark? AFAIK, Poland joined European Union seven years ago and I could not see any mass migration of Poles to Germany?

good one

that's true. it's not a matter of spending, because most prices in Poland are the same as in the EU, and some items are even more expensive, like electronics, except Poles make only a fraction of what their western European counterparts make. so no matter the price of apples or potatoes, wrt to the wealth of the population, Poland is closer to Romania than Germany or the UK.

It's obvious. Why does it make sense for hundreds of thousands of educated Poles to go working as housemaids or kitchen helpers or nannies in London, rather than for Brits to come to work in Poland? Because what the Poles can make as housekeepers in London makes is much more than what they would make in Poland, even with their education.

as for the comparison of people living in poverty, it goes by the national line of poverty. So even if what the Polish government considers the Polish poverty line is twice as much as Albanian, it's still three times lower than the poverty line in the UK. So, you can be technically poor in the UK on the same income that would make you middle-class in Poland.


Antek, because Germany didn't open its borders until now, much later than the UK or Ireland did.

Probably the same time as when property prices fall to the level of 2,000zl per square metre in central Krakow (another one of Mark's excellent predictions).

hundreds of thousands of Poles already work in Germany - hundreds of thousadns of Polish women tend to the elderly Germans (my mom used to - many Polish women I know do) - they won't resettle though - they live in the homes of those Germans - hundreds of thousands Polish men work there as builders - they do not resettle either - they leave their homes and families in Poland beacuse it is more economical - you won't see many Poles settling in Germany even for short periods and the reason is Germany is so close everybody can be home every couple of weeks

Or like wanting to put someone with a cold into a hospice....

Poland is definitely poorer than the richest countries in Europe.

There is poverty in Poland.

But calling Poland 'poor' in a blanket statement is insulting to those places with real poverty. Poland is not well to do, but it's getting by okay and living standards are increasing for most of the population.

Come on then Mark, explain how the government is going to solve the housing problem. I could do with a laugh.
According to your previous posts, there are too many houses/flats, the market is saturated with unsold properties. Are you advocating that the government seizes them from their owners and gives them to people like you for nothing?

the thing is the price - the two scenarios are possible - either the developers can't sell at lower prices because they will have no real income from them or they won't sell at lower prices beacuse they want to have a 'decent' income (appartments do not rot so they can wait for a while) - I think it is the second scenario rather than the first one and the prices will eventually drop by some 20 per cent - at the same time you see empty apartments in newly developed property you also see mushrooming new single-family houses

How would Poland look like without millions of its citizens working in other countries, and without the subsidies from the EU? Would you have a huge unemployment, and as a consequence a lot of poor people?

Interesting theory, so lets say the reports were correct and prices did rise by 198% between 2004-2008. In the past 3 years we have seen a correction/reduction in prices of around 10%, you say that they will fall another 20%, so, overall a 30% decrease only leaves profit of 158% on any building acquired prior to 2004. You would think that people selling would be happy with such a profit, why not knock another 58% and be happy with a 100% profit.....ah....if only life was so simple.

The only way out is for the government to build social housing and rent to the poorer people who cannot afford to buy. To build and be able to offer homes at the rents the poor can afford would mean higher taxes which in turn will affect the people with mortgages who will be expected to subsidize said rents.

Meanwhile, the construction workers who will be building this new social housing will be happy to return to the wages they were paid prior to 2004 because there is no work in Poland.....ah if only life was so simple.

The drop you have suggested would have this effect in Poland.

I call it property bubble - so many people earned so much they had no idea what to do with the money but buying a property - I say the good percantage of that money must have been made in shady ways (or otherwise abroad)

Not really: the gain in the value of one's home is pretty much only a paper gain; if one sells up, one still has to buy somewhere to live (and the price of that has gone up as much as the value of one's home).

have you ever bought or sold a house?
you're assuming that all homes go up or down in prices at the same rate, which is not true. Some neighborhoods appreciate more than others. If you invest in your house and get new windows and appliances, e.g., you fetch a better price. a kid knows that.

Yes thanks.


But they will generally move in much the same direction. Which means that one is unlikely to make a killing in real terms.


Don't know much about the Polish property market, do you?

a house is not to make a killing, it's a place to live.
even in Poland well-maintained houses with modern kitchens and bathrooms, and solid construction in a quiet neighborhood close to shopping and a highway appreciate faster than neglected sheds without running water in the middle of East Bumblef*ck. c'mon, harry, you can grasp it, right? when you were selling your house, didn't the real estate guy tell you to clean the mess, put the chickens where they belong, and put on a fresh coat of paint?

In Poland people don't sell properties with the kitchen appliances included, largely because buyers will say "I don't want those." and then want the most of the value of the appliances taken off the price (but the appliances left).


No, I knew all that. But look at a few properties in Poland and you'll see that virtually no agents tell their clients that. Of course, to know that you'd need to see a few properties in Poland which are for sale and you have clearly never done that (not that a tiny fact like that will stop you from claiming that you know all there is to know about property in Poland).

Wrong, Polish people are only interested in the price per m2 and they take their appliances with them when they move, I have seen places stripped out, kitchen, bathroom and lelectrical fittings.


You would.

If you really want to know how to make property more affordable for the poor or not so rich, its easy. Make all NEW BUILD exempt from VAT, price immeadiately goes down 8%. What about the lost income to the government?, no loss, more jobs would be created in construction, thus these workers will pay tax and ZUS and spend their money in Poland, to offset the VAT. Benefits to the government, unemployment would go down, defective housing stock would be replaced, more private investment, housing more affordable.

What a vote winner for the party with the cajones to put this in their election manifesto next year.

Simples.

ugh. I stand corrected. I hope I never have to buy a house in Poland then.

but to the other point, about subsidized housing, very good idea. there might be some pitfalls in practice and some chance of corruption, but it would definitely help.