Foreigners in Poland - the identities of our native or the host country

What a nonsense? I just don't dig the way some people think.It is not as if your rich uncle give you some dough to blow.

It is much more complicated than that.

such is the price of peace

I have never encountered this in the conservative element. I see it continuously from the liberal side of the aisle though.


Depends on how you identify "benefit".

Some will try to say that it must all be spent with companies from the country that received the money.

Infrastructure improvements (ports, railways, industrial developments, airports, highways, etc.) should be spent with the company(-ies) which provide the best value received (Return On Investment or simply "payback") for the dollar. That might include factoring in jobs for Polish citizens at some weighting point depending on the quality of work performed versus benefit received.

Ain't going to happen because there are ethnic groups out there which barely integrate and even less assimilate. Look at the Turks/ Kurds in Germany or the Netherlands for example, or the Algerians in France. Many of them form "ghettos" and isolate themselves from the host culture. Even third or fourth generation children that were born and raised in these countries see themselves first and foremost as Turks, and maybe then as Dutch, French or German. They have no allegiance whatsoever to their countries of birth and many of them are still not fluent in the local language - giving them a major disadvantage on the job market.

Poland has yet to see an immigrant group which is large enough in numbers to be recognized by the local population and cause the problems that you see in western societies.

Anti-discrimination laws, in themselves, don't create this problem.

The law is redundant (IMO) where there is a basic concept of all citizens being equal but does fulfill a purpose in spelling out punishments for violation of equality. The problem arises in situations where "de facto" discrimination is determined to exist based upon a purely statistical analysis of the company's employee group by race, nationality, gender, age, etc. That is what you bring up mid-way through your comment and it is a shame that this method of judging compliance is used.

Rather than consider the individual selection, the government determines you are discriminating against a group by pointing out that your employees don't meet the statistical profile of the society at large. As a hiring manager and as a Human Resource Specialist I have been forced to make decisions as to the best FEMALE electrician rather than the best ELECTRICIAN. I have searched for a COMPETENT Mechanic and delayed hiring the BEST MECHANIC available. When hiring 200 for summer work requirements, I have had to divide the applicants into two groups (M and F) then hire as many COMPETENT females as possible while rejecting BETTER-QUALIFIED males in a numbers game. Sadly, I was congratulated for managing to hire a FEMALE, HISPANIC electrician despite the fct that I had better qualified electricians, male, who needed work and appeared likely to perform better than the woman hired.

However, all that said, there ARE times when the quotas and forced hiring become necessary to break patterns of prejudice and discrimination with regard to all sorts of demographic factors. They should be a last resort though, not the quickest way achieve integration and assimilation of diversity in the workplace. The facts are that Blacks, Hispanics, Women, Gays, Older Workers, Asians, Jews, Muslims, Arabs, etc. were and still are discriminated against despite their being better qualified. To me, these always made more sense to consider individually but the reality seemed to be that our government suddenly realized it would take a massive agency to deal with judging qualifications on a case-by-case basis.

Then there is the argument concerning the right of the employer to hire who they wish, qualified or not. It's their money, their investment, their risk. I support them as well but proving that they discriminate AGAINST one type of person is often difficult. Somehow though, Hooters still hires female waitresses with attractive bodies, car dealerships hire mostly male sales staff and the Marines are saying some women are simply not going to cut it in certain combat roles.

Good post. I'd add that, with the exception of mom-n-pop businesses, in the absence of external pressures capitalist enterprises will always hire on merit alone. External pressures from State or national laws, contract conditions attached to government funding (including EU) that force recruitment decisions on the basis of quotas actually makes firms less competitive. It's a paradox that true capitalism is blind to 'taste' disrimination and will always hire workers to help maximise profit while the public sector actually discriminates. By 'taste' discrimination I mean discriminating on the basis of race, sex, sexuality or faith. Again paradoxically, much of this kind of discrimination comes from workers' unions seeking to exclude those different to themselves from the workplace - Harland and Wolff in Belfast wouldn't employ Catholics because the Protestant workforce would have downed tools, and believe it or not London Transport one ran a recruitment ad that stated 'We don't employ Blacks' in an effort to boost white employee numbers.

And of course the ~18% difference in female earnings, despite the whingeing of the left, is nothing to do with taste discrimination. It's mostly (about 14% of the difference) about women taking time out of the workplace to have babies. Firms that pay reward on a merit basis use

Education + Experience + 'W' the employability factor = Wage

So if a man and a woman the same age had exactly the same college grades and were equally employable but she had spent 4 years out of the workplace looking after babies, of course her wage is lower.

Not quite. Even a purely capitalist ORGANIZATION is formed from HUMANS. And humans do stupid, sometimes illegal, things. I know an HR Manager that was offering jobs in return for sex (the fifth woman was an undercover detective wearing a recording device). Subordinate workers who destroyed their Director's ability to work in a company with a series of jokes about how disgusting it would be to have sex with her, speculating on her body parts and her supposed lack of sexual fulfillment (2 men fired, 2 others reprimanded and the Director ultimately left her position as a result of the realities of the office perception of her). I have had to call police on a sub-contractor who ONLY hired blacks and then raped a woman (one of their own employees) in one of our company break-rooms (tons of trouble and, ironically, one of my bosses first comments was "Why did you get involved, you should have let her call the police!").

Your point probably is that the organization will hopefully deal with these issues internally but too often they are hidden or ignored. The damage to the individual victims (and society) is still real with life-long consequences. So it seems, unfortunate as it may be, that there does need to be a mechanism to deal with this more aggressively and punitively.

Poland had that experience behind her. Why would she wanted to start it anew.

Do expand on that.

i only know one thing
i trust warszawski more than i trust foreigners with no connection to poland
people who left 20 years ago
and those who quite simply fight wars with their keyboards

elite in Poland and Polish elite are two separate groups, although it would be possible for a native Pole to be included in both groups. I would consider the Polish elite to be made up of Intelligentsia, Aristocracy and Szlachta as the Polish privileged noble class.

Socio-economic elite would include Mafia and Crime-lords which I do not believe is part of the Polish Elite.

Jon, a good example is Mohamed Abdel Moneim Al-Fayed who is part of the British socio-economic elite, although he is not part of the British Elite - as we know it could have been different had the Paris accident not happened.

I see the distinction you mean and partly agree, however distinctions tend to blur among people of good taste and breeding , high intelligence and honestly obtained money. Nationality tends to become a detail especially among the cosmopolitan.

100% in agreement.

Mind you - and it's very close to the theme of your thread - there are certainly elites rather than just an elite. I see what you're saying. Old money certainly exists in Poland even today.

certainly so

it is quite frightening to think however
that today's nouveau riche will be tomorrow's old money
terrifying

More are returning.

actually
do you think this presents a problem in its own way?

i know there are cases where people left 30-40 years ago
and now theyre returning to reclaim property
causing great social problems

Poland has had experienced immigrants and minorities in her history.

with mixed experiences
i guess
poland-lithuania was such a powerful country for it at one point
but it also considerably weakened II RP

LAWL..this. I HATE the EO world. But I play the card.

As a generic, white looking female if I simply put 'white' all over my app? I never see an interview.
If I just sent a resume, glowing referrals and my unique qualifictions for 'X' position to save time? Round file.

BUT... if I mention my legal nationality, specialties, ethincity?

I can get hired for job immediately that I can do, but have less experience for ; if[i][/i] I happen to mention that I am:

FEMALE-HISPANIC-NATIVE AMERICAN-VETERAN

It should NOT make a difference!! >: ( the ONLY thing that an employer should adjust for is handicaps because they may need some reasonable accomodation to be effficient.

AS for the original OP musings. The differences between Expat/Immigrant etc.
as a worker in a foreign country I would consider myself a guest. I would do my job, make some friends but always keep in mind my goal of going HOME. I would be strongly American.

If it does indeed come to pass that after a few years I go to Poland to live with a Polish husband (anything can happen regardless of planning..but it is the outcome we expect), Then it is my new home.

I will always be what I was raised as.. friendly, neighborly, conservative, traditional, Catholic. I will always have my Tsalagi cultural inheritance, my role number, my family histories of Portuguese and Bohemian. So I can't be "Polish" LOL not even if my Boheme Bagenski were previously Polish. But I wouldn't be strongly holding to my "american-ness' and be raising my children there to be Polish. I would assimilate to become a Polish citizen.

If I started a business...(just as I have done here in US before..) my hiring preference would be local first and only importing from another region/state if there was simply no one local that could qualify. In technology I would headhunt local schools and top schools first before importing a specialist from elsewhere. Exception might be senior team leads, to have people with experience. In the case of a business in Poland all my employees would have to speak at least rudimentary Polish and my customer service people would need to speak Polish, probably English and likely languages of our largest consumers.

I have never been attracted to dark men (or exceptionally hairy ones) and adore pale, golden hues. I especially like light eyes. And boy, did this thread draw some ugly comments and promix weirdos! 0_0

I guess I better be glad my man isn't like some here and actually likes my "exotic" coloration and look. LOL
He dislikes when I bleached my freckles or wear makeup... ^_^ darn purist.
And my ..um.."mongrel" children are pretty good upgrades for my in laws, and I think I can safely say cute in any general view. I'm sure my AmPol mutts will be as attractive and not attract much notice at all except for their heights as my current children do (My 17yr girl= 182, My 14yr boy 186, my 7 yr old 146. Dad?156)

So what is different now in 2013, or is it the same as a bygone era and why?

Poland lost half their territory with the majority of her minorities plus there is Israel and the USA were majority of yet another minority moved.


Not a new phenomena some people become too rich and too detached from reality for their own good.

Warszawski why do you write "sic" after mentioning this so-called "Polonia elite"? Do you understand that "sic" means "as stated" and it is usually used when qouting something someone else has written, most commonly when one is qouting something that contains a spelling error. In your case your use of "sic" is claiming that there are Polonians on this forum that proclaim themselves to be members of an elite. Where was this done on the forum? Can you provide any examples of Polonians claiming that they are elites? I suspect that you cannot and that you wrote "sic" because you are angry at some Polonians on this forum for daring to criticize the British and thus you pretend that Polonians here have put on airs by claiming to be members of an elite. Do you really believe that lying about the Polonian members of this forum in the OP of this thread is a good idea? Isn't this known as flaming?

Moderators is it OK for me to ask these questions of the threadstarter? If not then why? I desire clarification of a phrase used in this thread's OP. Is it somehow off-topic to ask for it? If so then why? The threadstarter freely claims that he is a member of the capitalist elite in Poland in the following statement:


The thread starter thinks that Poland should do more to make him feel welcome. He claims that he is part of a "new wave" that is operating under some duress in Poland:


What are these difficult circumstances? Does he want a tax break? Why doesn't he provide us with some answers to his question? Is it wrong for us to ask why a self-proclaimed member of this elite new wave in Poland claims that Polonians on the forum claim to be members of an elite too, without providing any evidence for this claim? I think the threadstarter may have an unrealistic sense of his own importance for Poland. I think that Grzegorz may have "hit the nail on the head" regarding the sentiments expressed by the threadstarter with the following post:

It is not possible for Poland to pull themselves out from the effects of communism without help. After the wall fell all the thieves and liars of the communist gov't managed to make bag loads of money. see orlen, bakoma, agora.

Besides, typically Poles that set up shops abroad usually set up for the Polish community. example- Polish hair salons, deli's, book stores.....etc etc...--they don't really help the U.K.

Can you not conceive that some come over and expect to die outside their original home country?

I'm sure many local councils and HM Revenue & Customs would beg to differ.

And business is business. You may only hear Polish being spoken in such shops but it would be sheer madness for any business owner who wants to be profitable to turn any customer away especially if it is a slow day.

You will not be able to prevent the influx of certain ethnicities in Poland. Many of these people are EU nationals and as such free to settle anywhere in the EU.

That's some great topic!
Foreigners are marginalized everywhere!Plus the economic problems make governments don't do much for foreigners everywhere
Foreigners have to struggle everywhere!
But the feeling of intergeting with new communities,is a great feelings that I myself enjoyed experiencing before!
Even if there is some cultural clash,that it would rise esp if people don't try to compromise

Huh? what an odd comment....
did you not follow the rest of that paragraph or referrring to something else entirely?

No. If I am simply on a work permit I do NOT expect that I shall DIE before I return home! 0_0

....and if I have somehow invested heavily long-term on foreign soil and have not made arrangements to go "home" before I die..it wasn't much of a home or my new home has earned my loyalty. So it is my place of orgin, not my home.

If I retire somewhere foreign ...same thing.

meh, but then again I have knee-jerk reaction to even seeming a carpet bagger.

Rysavy,when are you going to Poland?