An example of what is wrong with Poland (fatal traffic accident and a tram)

They do it for everything - even a fender bender. Don't naively assume they only do it for fatal crashes. Though there are plenty of those, given Polish driving standards.

I seem to remember reading of a crash on a motorway in the UK a year or so ago, several cars were involved and there were a couple of fatalities. The police closed the mororway for 24 hours and caused a massive tailback of traffic, cars could not turn around and the police were handing out sandwhich's and bottles of water to trapped motorists, It was the first time that I had heard of a traffic accident being called a "crime scene".

Needless to say that people who wrote in to comment on the story thought the police actions were way over the top. I have not read of a similar incident occuring.

More whining and complaining from Harry. What's new?

I can't wait for the day when I see a happy, optimistic thread from this grumpy bugger.

Nothing's new - he's provoked a discussion, like always.

It amazes me that after all this time, people still haven't sussed Harry out.

How about this... if they weren't going to move the tram, why on earth wouldn't they close off the 4 adjacent feeder intersections and make a detour? Take a look at the picture and you'll see cars trying to drive around the obstruction, which in itself creates another dangerous situation. I can understand not moving the tram (well, I can see it from a Nervous Nellie point of view anyhow), but I can't understand not stopping traffic.

but sometimes the police could be more imaginative and provide means to drive around such obstacles - in Poland they seem not to care much about it

In my town, some cops are immediately assigned to figure out how to get the traffic moving, (and they get you moving, even if it's not where you want to go) while they're waiting for the investigation team to get there. Harry is right, from the picture at least, it looks like somebody should have been directing the traffic.

Some law enforcement agencies are run in an efficient and disciplined manner, some are not. What is the reputation of Warsaw cops?

Because cops take forever to do anything. A couple or so hours to move vehicles after a pile up is completely normal, especially if there was an injury involved. The police have to talk to people, find out what happened. An ambulance has to be called and the injured taken to a hospital. If a death is involved, an investigation must start, thus adding more time.

Even though this wasn't a pile up, it was a public transportation vehicle and a fatality. That is going to take a long time to process.

Alright, I'm a master at 'Where's Waldo' and I couldn't find a body in that picture for the life of me (no pun intended) .....


This happens in Chicago where I live too, and heard it's the same in LA and NYC.

The body might be over by the white vehicles toward the top of the picture. They look like ambulances, but I could be wrong?

Since I've done these in the past (accident surveys) Wroclaw and F-Stop are correct, in the US traffic is re-routed virtually immediately while the investigation goes on. The courts aren't unreasonable, they'll allow for the tram to move 30 feet to facilitate traffic in spite of the fact it may complicate some of the evidence.

If the accident happened near where the ambulances are, it looks like the tram has been moved. That picture is confusing. I didn't see anything around the tram that looks like an ambulance.

They're not ambulances, and I don't think there's a body. I think Harry might of pulled one on us...

I disagree. Look at the photo, you can see where the cops are blocking Trasa WZ. It's at the top of the picture, on the left. You can see the lane has no cars on it, is blocked by the police and the two white ambulances. Look closely.

I've spent a good few minutes trying to permutate the above possibilities. Is it possible to be hit by a tram as you come off it? was she dragged across the tram track because something got stuck as the doors closed?

Surely, any fatal accident requires a thorough investigation, so i can't see why the tram would be moved. This is protocol, everywhere, otherwise where's the evidence gonna come from? This is why the hit & run traffic offences are severely punished over here.

Everton fc played the first half of their FA cup game on Tuesday without 5 of their first teamers, why? They were stuck on a closed M62, because of a nearly fatal four car carnage. Needless to say they lost the game......This is just an example of how such incidents affect everyday life, People just have to get on with it. In the meantime, lets all reserve some thoughts for the deceased's family, it's always tough to lose a beloved one!

Yesterday north of Sydney, Australia the F3 Freeway was closed for 12 hours due to a fatal hit and run accident. Different accidents have different circumstances and where it is only property damage or the circumstances are clear then opening a road to traffic can happen fairly quickly but there are also cases where major traffic disruption is inevitable. In the Sydney incident there was reason for police to suspect a murder had taken place or maybe it was a suicide. It turns out that is probably not the case but they closed the freeway to all traffic while they thoroughly searched every square cm of road surface, marking where body parts were found and making certain that all evidence originated from this incident. As a result police are now looking for a dark red colored sedan which indicates they found debris from the car involved. Without thorough forensic investigation despite the inconveniences suspects cannot be charged and evidence can be thrown out of courts for being "shoddy". There are good reasons for such drastic action as shutting down a major freeway. This would happen in any country with respect for law and the sanctity of human life.

The result would have been choked alternative roads and many people not being able to get to Sydney for work or to catch flights and so on. But where there is death we all have to stand back and deal with the consequences with respect and sensitivity to the life that has just been lost. When my father died I instantly left work and took several days off due to funeral and helping my mother. It is normal for life to be disrupted by a death, and two hours traffic inconvenience in a city where there are many alternative routes is not such a big problem.

In the Polish case the tram would not be able to be moved immediately for several reasons. First as due to collection of evidence and police determining whether or not there was an accident, a suicide, or a murder to investigate. The tram driver is likely to be traumatized by the death and might not be capable of driving the tram and inevitably he or she would need to be tested for blood alcohol to rule that out as a factor. Other evidence would need to be collected, everything thoroughly photographed, witnesses interviewed, assessment of damage and potential safety issues with the tram, replacement driver found and so on. For the intersection to be partially closed for only two hours indicates a highly efficient response by police, medical, and transportation officials who all had important roles in the incident. Meanwhile the comparatively minor inconveniences to members of the public affected needs to be kept in perspective with the far greater issue of the unfortunate death of the woman involved. May she rest in peace.

Harry will tell you that the thread is about something else: it is a thread about an example of what is wrong with this country [Poland]. But you may well ask him after having read his story of a tram which hit and killed a woman who tried to get off it: what's wrong with you, Harry?

Precisely: the tram has already been moved. If it was returned to the position which it was in the accident occurred, it would not be blocking both directions of seven tram routes and one lane of a major road and half the junction with another major road.

I agree, that's what Harry does: points out whats wrong with the country. But that does not mean that he is wrong. This is what this forum is for - first hand accounts of the good, the bad and the ugly.

I thought you said the tram hadn't been moved and was left to block traffic?

The tram had moved from where the accident was (those things don't exactly stop on a dime). From what someone who saw the accident says (a neighbour), the tram in question hadn't stopped at the junction but had stopped one tram back from the junction to let people off, so it was moving fairly well by the time the woman fell off and under the wheels: it's momentum carried it to the position where it is shown in the picture (i.e. 30 metres or so from where the accident was).

I didn't realize they take so long to stop. We don't have them here. That explains a lot.
So, now it makes more sense. I was wondering why the ambulances were so far from the tram...

Look closer: there is only one ambulance, and two police cars.

Hard to tell even with the photo enlarged 400%. I can't tell if the two white vehicles belong to the cops or the paramedics. Is the ambulance the orange and purple vehicle on the shoulder of Trasa WZ? I can see a man with a bright green safety vest standing by a car with the door open. He looks like either a cop or part of a road crew.

When I was in Poland I didn't participate in the health care offered by hospitals due to the fact that I had foreign insurance policy (not accepted everywhere). Thus, I was forced to find a place which validates such documents. I ended in the American Clinic in the Wilanow city (or something like that), where they accepted my insurance policy and offered my a tutor who helped me with medical documentation etc. I kind of dodged a bullet on this one, because I was able to find this clinic. Anyway there is a problem with medical care of foreigners in Poland. There is no denial behind that.