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Bilet, controler and the Poland Police.


dtaylor5632  18 | 1998  
14 Apr 2010 /  #31
As for the system being useless - it works perfectly well in Berlin and many other places :)

And soon Edinburgh ;)

I don't see why it is so difficult just to buy a damn ticket, validate it and go on your way.
delphiandomine  86 | 17823  
14 Apr 2010 /  #32
My only objection is that in some places, you can't find a ticket office or machine and the drivers don't sell tickets. Take where I live - it's impossible to get a ticket anywhere within a 20 minute walk after 10pm at night. But this could be easily solved with machines on trams!

Mind you, I do have a rule - if the controllers are clearly arseholes, then I always waste their time as much as possible before giving them the ticket. If they really are paid on commission, then it'll hurt them in the pocket.
dtaylor5632  18 | 1998  
14 Apr 2010 /  #33
But this could be easily solved with machines on trams!

I think Krakow started that program 2 years ago. So much easier unless there is a long queue for the ticket.

I've only been stopped twice for not having a ticket. First was my first time in Krakow where I tore up the ticket after validating it, didn't know about the conductors :) Friends managed to find all the little pieces and I got away with it.

Second time I have to get the tram at 6am for work and being so sleepy I forgot to take my monthly pass, wallet ect. They asked me for ticket and I explain I forgot my wallet when I was late for work, they asked for ID and I told them that I didnt have any on me but I had my pass at home. They just buggered off while the rest of the passengers looked at me as if being foreign meant I could get away with it :D
Cardno85  31 | 971  
14 Apr 2010 /  #34
Not practical. Even in Poznan, it would delay the trams significantly

I agree, you see it on the buses in Glasgow where you have to pay (in exact change) at the entrance of the bus. It's fine when there is only one or two people at the bus stop, but at busy times the bus can be at the stop for up to 4-5 minutes, which is unacceptable.
dtaylor5632  18 | 1998  
14 Apr 2010 /  #35
Or you have the mad drivers who cram everyone on then speed away while they are waiting :D
Havok  10 | 902  
14 Apr 2010 /  #36
Not practical. Even in Poznan

Are you kidding me? Every bus/metro/tram system in the U.S. works this way. Plenty of "busy" here too. Check out NY city. If it works for 300 000 000 people here i'm sure it would work for 40 000 000 people in Poland.

quote=delphiandomine] if the controllers are clearly arseholes[/quote]

Customer service at its best… I'm really sorry you guys have to put up with this crap over there.
SeanBM  34 | 5781  
14 Apr 2010 /  #37
Are you kidding me? Every bus/metro/tram system in the U.S. works this way. Plenty of "busy" here too. Check out NY city. If it works for 300 000 000 people here i'm sure it would work for 40 000 000 people in Poland.

You are the only person complaining about the way it is done here, everyone else seems happy enough, except for the OP who got caught not paying.

delphiandomin:if the controllers are clearly arseholes

Customer service at its best… I'm really sorry you guys have to put up with this crap over there.

You misquoted, the quote was:

if the controllers are clearly arseholes, then I always waste their time as much as possible before giving them the ticket. If they really are paid on commission, then it'll hurt them in the pocket.

Havok  10 | 902  
14 Apr 2010 /  #38
don't see why it is so difficult just to buy a damn ticket, validate it and go on your way.

That part is not difficult at all but It's the service you get when you get "caught". I don't understand why the conductor just didn't let him validate the damn ticket.

hello, I’m form the Tram service, do you have a valid ticket? oh ok, Go ahead and validate it please. Thank you for choosing our Tram service.

Sounds too silly, right?
SeanBM  34 | 5781  
14 Apr 2010 /  #39
I don't understand why the conductor just didn't let him validate the damn ticket.

Because he was sitting in his seat twiddling his thumbs, not paying for his fare.

hello, I’m form the Tram service, do you have a valid ticket? oh ok, Go ahead and validate it please. Thank you for choosing our Tram service.

Sounds too silly, right?

Yes, it does, the guy gets on a tram, doesn't buy a ticket, sits on his hands and gets caught.
f stop  24 | 2493  
14 Apr 2010 /  #40
oh, I hope that when Poland changes their system, they'll go straight to wireless.
Havok  10 | 902  
14 Apr 2010 /  #41
You misquoted,

I'm sorry.

Yes, it does, the guy gets on a tram, doesn't buy a ticket, sits on his hands and gets caught.

That is such a "The Soup Nazi" system. F-it i would just buy a car and never use it.
delphiandomine  86 | 17823  
14 Apr 2010 /  #42
Are you kidding me? Every bus/metro/tram system in the U.S. works this way.

I don't even want to think about the delays to public transport caused by everyone having to validate a ticket upon entry. Even London doesn't have this system for buses and trams - it's simply not practical or efficient to check everyone. And even a significant portion of the Tube doesn't have ticket barriers.

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/NewOrleansHudRedStreetcarsCanalStreet.jpg

Look at the queue here - it might work for tourists, but it just doesn't work when you have plenty of people needing to get on and off at every stop. The average tram stop is what, 15-20 seconds? If you had everyone validating tickets or passes upon entry, that time would significantly increase. And also - who the hell wants the inconvenience of having to wait behind people who can't find their ticket?

Perhaps this explains why no-one uses public transportation in America?

The only thing people complain about here is the attitude of the controllers, not the system itself.

Sounds too silly, right?

Yes, because everyone would just carry an unvalidated ticket then. Don't forget that timed tickets are also used in some places - it's very common for people in Poznan to buy a 15 minute ticket and not bother to validate it for the first part of their journey, especially in the suburbs where you virtually never see a controller.

f stop - we do have wireless tickets, I have one :)

(incidentally, you can buy tickets using a mobile phone too, but the system is a bit crap)

That part is not difficult at all but It's the service you get when you get "caught".

Some of them are perfectly pleasant about it - let's be realistic, it's not a job that most people would want to do, given the abuse that you have to suffer.
SeanBM  34 | 5781  
14 Apr 2010 /  #43
the system is still at large terrorizing customers of the mass transit system

That is such a "The Soup Nazi" system.

The system is fine, you are the only one complaining, the comparisons you are drawing are sheer ludicrous by anyone's standards.
Were you so traumatised twenty five years ago, that you can't understand that when someone tried to get on public transport without paying for the ticket they are fined? not shot, not terrorised, not a Nazis system, just fined?

:)
Cardno85  31 | 971  
14 Apr 2010 /  #44
Yes, it does, the guy gets on a tram, doesn't buy a ticket, sits on his hands and gets caught.

I would agree with you here Sean. If the system was as Havok says then I would just buy one ticket and never validate it unless a controller came on, and I normally only see them once or twice a month. I would not be the only person thinking this. Can you see anyone validating their ticket if they knew they didn't have to?

People might complain about the current system, but it works. Most people buy tickets and validate them. If they don't then they get fined, it's simple and the trams are all pretty efficient (except the 13 in Kraków which for some reason is always at random times). Compared to the buses and trains back in Glasgow they are a dream!
dtaylor5632  18 | 1998  
14 Apr 2010 /  #45
except the 13 in Kraków which for some reason is always at random times

Never had a strict time, generally cos the newer trams get priority, 24 and 8. And 13 gets stuck behind them next to ur place ;)
SeanBM  34 | 5781  
14 Apr 2010 /  #46
I would agree with you here Sean.

You do agree with me, he says it sounds silly and I said yes, it does.

Of course not many people would validate their tickets if noone checked.

And the OP didn't do it, got caught and should not have been allowed to validate his ticket after getting caught, that would defeat the whole purpose... :)

This thread is a bit silly now.
Havok  10 | 902  
14 Apr 2010 /  #47
And even a significant portion of the Tube doesn't have ticket barriers.

Not practical, what about cost/efficiency?
You wanna ride? Please pay before you get on. Find a way to make it work.

You can't catch everyone, there are not enough tram-cops... Was the Polish mass transit near the bankruptcy once or twice?
Also, who is paying for the real cop to show up there? That's right, your tax money at work. Nice system. Why change it. It obviously works.

Perhaps this explains why no-one uses public transportation in America?

People in the city do use it a lot. Outside of metropolises it's easer to travel by car. U.S. is f-ing huge and everything is spread out a lot more.
dtaylor5632  18 | 1998  
14 Apr 2010 /  #48
Also, who is paying for the real cop to show up there? That's right, your tax money at work. Nice system. Why change it. It obviously works.

I'll have whatever u have been drinking
Havok  10 | 902  
14 Apr 2010 /  #49
I'm sorry, maybe i've missed something. Do cops get paid in Poland?
dtaylor5632  18 | 1998  
15 Apr 2010 /  #50
Do cops get paid in Poland?

What happens in the US if you get on a train without paying or buying a ticket?
pgtx  29 | 3094  
15 Apr 2010 /  #51
you get 10 years public works for that in TX... ;)
Havok  10 | 902  
15 Apr 2010 /  #52
Were you so traumatised twenty five years ago, that you can't understand that when someone tried to get on public transport without paying for the ticket they are fined? not shot, not terrorised, not a Nazis system, just fined?

The fact that I still remember this silly event after so many years speaks for itself.

I'm not complaining, I don't have to use it. I'm trying to point out how inefficient and outdated it is. Many of the European countries just pour money into it but Poland isn't that rich. Make it pay for itself or just close it down and let the private sector pick it up again.

you get 10 years public works for that in TX... ;)

Come down and find out. Simply you gotta buy a ticket to get on the bus.
If you refuse you get shot in the face without any questions asked. In TX bullets are cheap.
Basil  
15 Apr 2010 /  #53
Havok,

Technically current system maximizes passenger throughput.
Also majority of regular commuters do use monthly etc. passes (it is cheaper)
reducing the time they spend on interaction with ticketing system to near zero (the only time spent is occasional interaction with controller).

This is achieved without any investment in technical infrastructure for period pass riders (single ride tickets need validating machines though)

No other solution can best that as far as passenger time is concerned.
Of course the economics need to be considered: salaries of controllers, frequency of police intervention vs cost of technical infrastructure but I'm sure the transportation companies did that math.

In fact I would not be surprised if they considered total elimination of single ride tickets as the best solution (most profitable) but this would not be politically feasible.

As a pass rider I would loathe to put up with any kind of ticket system hassle or cost (wireless or not)

BTW if you forget the monthly pass you will not pay a fine.
You can give controller your personal info (address) and you will need to come to their office some time later to show your valid pass.
delphiandomine  86 | 17823  
15 Apr 2010 /  #54
Not practical, what about cost/efficiency?
You wanna ride? Please pay before you get on. Find a way to make it work.

It's much more efficient to have an honour system than it is to install machinery. For a start, if the machine breaks - then what? Taking the tram/bus out of service is inefficient, there's a cost attached to the machinery, and it slows down the service drastically. There are buses here with 4 entrances and exits - who wants to wait 5 minutes while all the old people find their tickets or passes?

Let's not forget that a machine isn't capable of judging entitlement - so you can quite easily have people travelling on child fares, completely uncontrolled.

Let's not forget that fines are also a source of revenue - with a 200zl fine if not paid within 7 days in Poznan, it soon adds up for the transport authority.

Make it pay for itself or just close it down and let the private sector pick it up again.

Funnily enough, the private sector also relies on the honour system in most cases. And also, I know the concept of "subsidy" is beyond Americans, but do you really think most public transport networks can run without subsidy? The UK shows what happens when you let the private sector in - costs increase dramatically in many cases.
Havok  10 | 902  
15 Apr 2010 /  #55
Also majority of regular commuters do use monthly etc. passes (it is cheaper)

Meetings, meetings all day... Anyway
This is not about maximizing passenger throughput but about simple profitability.

In your current system there is no way of telling how many customers gets away without paying for the service on daily basis. It's impossible to calculate loses therefore it's unattainable to reform it.

I'm really beginning to question Poland's future. In essence you need to reform your thought process.

It's a ripple effect. Profitability is allowing for competition and competition can lead to better service. (Nicer busses, better service)... economics 101.

In the future, before you start building metros and new highways make sure you know how to make money on it and not the other way around.
delphiandomine  86 | 17823  
15 Apr 2010 /  #56
In your current system there is no way of telling how many customers gets away without paying for the service on daily basis. It’s impossible to calculate loses therefore it's unattainable to reform it.

Never heard of statistical analysis?

As I said - Berlin and many other cities work on exactly this principle. Guess what - they don't have a problem. And in case you hadn't noticed - most people pay.

(anyway, even if you validate a ticket upon entry, how do you control the losses when someone stays on the bus/tram for longer than allowed?)

It’s a ripple effect. Profitability is allowing for competition and competition can lead to better service. (Nicer busses, better service)… economics 101.

Economics 102, which if you had attended, you would know that deregulation of public transport often leads to monopoly situations which the operators then demand subsidy to run routes. The UK, home of the deregulated market has experienced just that. It is often cheaper and more efficient to keep a service "in house" than to go private - not withstanding the fact that the private sector will very rarely fund the improvements needed by themselves.

Anyway, last time I checked, Amtrak was sucking up $2.6 billion dollars a year. You might also want to ask why the flagship MTA in New York is sucking up roughly a billion dollars a year. I mean - efficient? Hardly.

I’m really beginning to question Poland's future. In essence you need to reform your thought process.

You might want to start by explaining why you subsidise public transport so much in America.
Havok  10 | 902  
15 Apr 2010 /  #57
Let's not forget that a machine isn't capable of judging entitlement

...

It's much more efficient to have an honour system than it is to install machinery.

cost/efficiency

I was referring to "making money"... a business, nothing personal. Cash out, more cash in...

I know the concept of "subsidy" is beyond Americans, but do you really think most public transport networks can run without subsidy?

If you don't have money for it than you ride a horse or run to work… If you're rich and there is an underlining business need, for example in a city that makes a lot of money form businesses, than subsidizing is not a bad idea. You'll make that money back in taxes anyway...

Amtrak was sucking up $2.6 billion dollars a year.

Berlin and many other cities work on exactly this principle

Berlin, Philadelphia or NY city make more money alone than 3 Polands together.... headquarters of multibillion corporations etc. of course they can afford this kind of system of mass transit. They are making that money back in taxes.

You might want to start by explaining why you subsidise public transport so much in America.

So when Polish businessmen come down they feel more like at home. J/k

(anyway, even if you validate a ticket upon entry, how do you control the losses when someone stays on the bus/tram for longer than allowed?)

If I got this as a contract job ...

- install $30 camera on the bus to document/research the problem.
- create database with my findings $100.
- analysis and proposal where to create "reset points" to minimize this possibility.
- research what other companies charge do do this

Estimated increase in profits for the bus transit line $1 mill a year. They make money I make money...

- bil'em $100K

A smile on their face, priceless.

I know it’s a silly example,,, in essence this is how you grow/do business here though.
aphrodisiac  11 | 2427  
15 Apr 2010 /  #58
I know it’s a silly example,,, in essence this is how you grow/do business here though.

indeed, and this is precisely how you want the business to be done anywhere else, correct?
Havok  10 | 902  
15 Apr 2010 /  #59
Nope, it’s not the point.
Laws are different, circumstances etc whatever... the mechanics of what I’m trying to explain can work in a rainforest village. I know it because I have experienced it. Not the rainforest part though. lol

On the other hand, Poland is full of highly educated people with no work experience.
You educate your young and than let them leave to England.
All they do there is wipe a$ses... When they come back to Poland they're still book smart but the only experience they have is in as$ wiping. This is the future of your country.

Do something…
SeanBM  34 | 5781  
15 Apr 2010 /  #60
All they do there is wipe a$ses...

Why are you writing such nonsense?
You have gone from telling us that you were traumatized as a child, to the terror of the tram service, then called it a ''Nazi soup'' system, now you are telling us about Polish people wiping asses, you're off your head :)

I can see you won't let this go but I just thought I'd do a quick summary because we are on the third page of a very simple matter.

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