I think its important to remember through all this discussion is that, yes Poland has racial problems, however its not the only country in the world. For people to say there is no problem in Poland is stupid, like them, its rather obvious there is a racial problem in poland. Its also well documented the sorts of things that go on there. Just to give an example of othe nations firstly, look at the UK, with attacks on immigrants etc etc, secondly look at Russia which is in a worse situation than the UK or Poland. Do you know people are actually training to fight a war against the 'foreigners' inside of Russia!!!!
P.S. Mali i think your comments to me were rather over the top, in fact i don't know if you were smoking or taking something before you posted there but i think you need to take a raincheck on that post. To slam me for airing an opinion on a subject 'polish people and racism' when i'm talking about 'polish people and racism' is a little out of order. If you've got an argument you can at least put forward some sort of argument rather than call me a hypocrite and lambasting me for not experiencing something.
no, I know they can run the govt. I liked bill.. and like Hillary..
so did I,but,didnt you guys have a revolt against us lot in the 1770s to get rid of stuff like family empires running your country?Come on,since what,1989 yu have had two dynasties in power,do you really want that to continue untill atleast 2012?
Obama came out of nowhere? I suggest that some of us get familiar with his political resume. And moreover, I would never vote for anybody just because their husband can back them up. What kind of an argument and attitude is that? Not a logical one to me :) In that case, I guess Laura Bush qualifies to run for president only because she is (and soon will be an ex-first lady) the first lady and she is inside the White House now. Bottom line, people are afraid of the change that Senator Obama represents, at least some of them. Plus a lot of the top players would (and I hope they will) lose tons of money if the USA pulls out of Iraq. They have their personal agendas behind this war! Can't you see that?! Polish troops should have pulled out of Iraq a long time ago as well. It is ruining Polish economy, not to mention Polish troops and the government is contributing to killing innocent children, men and women of Iraq. I hate wars!!!! Good thing that both Hilary and Barack want to end this chaos. Good luck to whoever will be elected!
i found your post really interesting, as what your written is something i'm struggling with my Polish mum at the moment, as its so frustrating. What you have described, about your family in Poland saying you cant bring your African friend due to his skin color, is that family an exception in thinking or the general norm? I mean do many people think like that in Poland or is it just a minority?
I give u an example about my mum, she thought that here in Australia, our South African neighbours (who are not white) would agree to some things we wanted to request them, and mum said, they will agree because we are white and they are coming from a country where white people where once seen as superior and basically they will want to please "us" whites. I felt ill with this thinking (she is from older generation). Turns out, they are very wealthy people, mum got a shock and when realized they are like way above social status then us lol, she toned down her thinking and went all humble, especially as they didnt readily agree to our request and looking at them, didnt give a toss whether we are white, purple or pink lol. I was glad they acted the way they did (they were very very nice but not what mum thought they would be) to least show mum, hey your thinking isnt right!
bollox Poland ever had multi culturalism....It had Poles and it had Jews,and the 2 groups only mixed when they had too.Of course others went to Poland but this was in the days before nationalisim/race conciousness in its modern sense.
Well during the time of the Republic of Both Nations Poles made about 50% of the whole population of the Commonwealth. The rest constituted from Lithuanians, today’s Byelorussians and Ukrainians, Jews, Karaites, Germans, Latvians, Armenians, Gypsies, Tartars as well as Dutch and Czech communities. There were also strong merchant communities of Greeks and Italians. English, Hungarian and Scotish commnunities were also present but not to the extent of the previous mentioned nationalities of course. Generally there were over 20 languages present in the ROBN and several religions. If that’s not multi cultural than I don't know what is.
Yeah, there were some of these peoples here, but very much in the minority. It could never be seen as multiculturalism in the fullest sense. Not as we know it.
I think its fair to say that where ever there is a homeogenous population, the minute another culture, race or religion is imposed on that nation that there will be a certain level of rejection or anti whatever that race, religion or culture is. I'm not saying its an excuse but i think you can see what i mean.
When ever something changes there will always be a reaction as change is not a natural human process, whether your talking about a whole nation and change or a simple business changing its culture, People do not deal with it well. There are many factors that people are scared about when it comes to change, i'm not going to go into them as it would take a very long time to explain and would bore everybody. Racism is just one of the reactions, to a change, which in this case could be a previous homeogenous nation becoming multi-cultural.
Well, if racism is a reaction to a change, how would explain the "phenomenon" of multi-dimensional racism that exists in the USA of today? My understanding of what you said Tornado is that racism is a sort of self-defense mechanism. Maybe so, maybe in Poland, but only to a certain extent. The rest, I'm afraid, is pure ignorance. And racism in the United States is not aimed only at African Americans. It's still Whites versus Blacks, sure, but also Latinos vs. Blacks, Asians vs. Blacks, Asians vs. Latinos plus many more other combinations. So, my question is: how can we explain that? And again, not everybody reacts that way, but quite a few people do. Sad, but true. I would think that in a country that mixes nations, races, cultures and religions by default, that racism wouldn't exist, wishful thinking, I'm afraid. I am an idealist, I guess ... :)
Yeah, there were some of these peoples here, but very much in the minority. It could never be seen as multiculturalism in the fullest sense. Not as we know it.
Poles made about 50% of the Polish-Lithuanians Commonwealth population. Can we call PLC a homogenous country?
How would you define modern multicultural country, Seanus?
I am guessing he meant people of color other than lily-white...
From my experience, there's plenty of racism in Poland.
I'm a Polish Jew, grew up in Trojmiasto. Visited last in 2006, and the reactions of the great majority of people were even nastier than what I remembered from my school days. At least during komuna they tried to hide their anti-semitism somewhat.
True, there are Poles that are color and religion-blind. But sadly, there's not enough of them.
Maybe so, maybe in Poland, but only to a certain extent. The rest, I'm afraid, is pure ignorance.
i accept what you say however, isn't part of the 'ignorance' do to the fact that the 'homogenous population has not been exposed to the different races, religions and cultures, so of course it is down to ignorance :) The two walk hand in hand, if you've lived with white, blonde haired and blue eyed males for all of your life, what are you going to know about a woman who is black with brown eyes and brown hair :). If you've never seen this woman or anything like her in your life before you are automatically going to be interested or defensive, maybe both at the same time.
Can we call PLC a homogenous country?
you can call poland a homogenous country, yes, as of the last census 96% claimed they were polish nationals, now if thats not homogenous i don't know what is :)
From my experience, there's plenty of racism in Poland.
Is a country like the UK where u c large numbers of communities like Pakistanis, Indians, Chinese, Europeans etc etc. Poland has small clusters or pockets of foreigners. I'm sorry but Lithuanians are fellow Slavs and are not as different as people from the Middle and Far East. My girlfriend is Polish and I asked her if she thought Poland was multicultural. Her reply, "w życiu". I take it u understand
The smaller cities still are represented by many ethnic groups unlike here in Poland. Gliwice is very white compared to Aberdeen and they are of comparable size.
I understand what you are saying, however..... My PARENTS taught me otherwise. My parents did not root in me "she looks different than you, she has a different color of the skin, so you have to be afraid, baby!", no way, actually quite the opposite. My parents taught me "explore the world, baby, learn about different cultures and different people, and once you do that, you will have a better understanding of the world and its people". And another thing, I am as white as it can get, but I am not "white" in my mentality, if you know what I mean. And sometimes I feel out of place when talking to other whites. I am sure my fellow Poles remember from their childhood the lines that start as follows: "Murzynek Bambo w Afryce mieszka, czarna ma skore ten nasz kolezka ...." etc. I am afraid if your parents did not contribute to your upbringing with an open mind, you have to do it on your own. Some people choose not to, however. Anyways, I distinguish between ignorance and the lack of experience, my friend. To me ignorance overlaps with stupidity, and I would not refer to myself as stupid. I may not have experience living the life of non-white people, but I do know what challenges their life entails. I am sure I only know a small percentage of what they have to go thru on a daily basis and I feel it's very unfair. I have never been discriminated against in my entire life! I consider myself lucky. At the same token, I think it's unfair. I feel I have more opportunities in life only because I am white. That's the bottom line. It's a big injustice.
whether Poles consider it a problem or not, it exists, thats like saying there was a holocaust, but because the Germans didn't find it a problem it didn't exist, hhhhmmm i don't think so :)
Poland has small clusters or pockets of foreigners.
exactly its like having the Welsh, Irish or Scottish in England there isn't really that much difference.
I understand what you are saying, however..... My PARENTS taught me otherwise.
yes i see your point here
I am afraid if your parents did not contribute to your upbringing with an open mind, you have to do it on your own.
i also see your point here, your correct ignorance is linked closely with stupidity however ignorance is not always down to stupidity, if you haven't seen a wasp you would ask 'what is that mum??' she would say 'ow its a wasp' you would remember that and store it for future reference, in that instance you are ignorant to the fact its a wasp but does it mean your stupid?? no its just part of your learning process when you grow up.
While on the whole i agree with the points you have made i cannot put it fully down to supidity, there are a number of clever racists in the world, there not all stupid and dumb, what accounts for their ignorance??
whether Poles consider it a problem or not, it exists, thats like saying there was a holocaust, but because the Germans didn't find it a problem it didn't exist
Aren't you using a little too far fetched comparisons?
Well, you missed the nail. As others said, any racism in Poland is not much different that in other countries. If we throw in other ethnicity based prejudices your country has a bigger problem than Poland:
sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/003352.html
but fear not UK and Poland are not alone in their reaction to changing ethnic realities:
We've been talking so far about racism and color. What I mean is I see the injustice, unfairness and cruelty in discriminating against non-white folks being white myself. And I admit it. Some people, white people, will deny it. They will claim they are not racist, but they are. I also feel privileged due to the color of my skin. I know my non-white counterparts face many more obstacles in life than myself, for instance employmentwise. Sometimes they have limited access to education, healthcare, they have work twice as hard only to prove themselves "equal", are you following me on this? And I feel pretty bad about it. Why should they? They are just like me, with only one exception: they are not white, u know. But there is nothing I can do about it. Example, I have a friend who is a dental hygienist (African American), and some patients refuse to be treated by her! She laughs if off, but at the same time it's a slap in the face to her, and honestly, to me, too. I feel embarrassed when it happens to her. She is a college graduate like myself, but if it's not one thing, it's the other. Her access to education was not limited let's say, but she has to deal with such situations pretty frequently. I think it's awful that anybody would do it. She is an expert in her field, but to some people it's not enough. I remember the 1st time she told me this story, I got so angry and ashamed, but she said it was ok, she is sort of used to that, and she was calm. I was furious.
Another thing, my integrity caused a break-up of a few friendships of mine. I couldn't continue being "friends" with people who had racist views. Till this day they can't understand why we are not friends any more, but I just told them I believe in equality and respect and we simply did not share those simple values. They called me a "sellout" and I told them to basically kiss my a... I couldn't continue this hypocritical pseudo-friendship. So, they called me anti-white and I left. And I am not anti-white, I am not anti-anything. I am pro-equality and pro-justice. That's all.
If we throw in other ethnicity based prejudices your country has a bigger problem than Poland:
uuuhhhh since when have i said there is not a problem in the UK?????? please tell me mate because i can't remember saying it, you see this is the thing, instead of addressing or even admiting your country has a problem you like to poke a stick into our problem :)
no we ae not the only nations with a racism issue, there is racism all around the world
I couldn't find the video of the 88 gang throwing the black people out of the pub in Krakow as its not on youtube anymore but i think people know what i'm talking about :)
Have you all not figured out that racists are in every country? We can sit here all day and post racial videos. We have many KKK and other assorted dimwits here :)
