The changing RCC habits of Poles

When they fail to meet the minimum expectations that Harry listed, I guess.


Well, the Church has their own criteria that they judge by - you can only base it on that.


I dunno - among my friends, there's plenty of them who would say "I'm Catholic" to the question "what religion are you?" - but who don't go to church and so on. If Poland was anywhere near 92.2% practising Catholic, the country would be far more right wing socially than it is.


But... actually, understanding the RCC is pretty much vital to understanding Poland.


A more detailed breakdown by age would be an interesting start, as would information about political affiliation. Despite the rants of Polonius, I know a considerable amount of middle aged PO voters who would be called practising Catholics by anyone reasonable.

After the death of Pope John Paul in 2005 the Polish RCC started to support the more radical right-wing groups of politics, alienating the young and educated attendees. When the new pope visits Poland he must counter this trend by promoting further democratization of Polish society, the church cannot continue to cling to its traditional role in a rapidly changing world. Polish RCC has to change itself & adapt to current social, religious and political conditions or it will condemn itself to further marginalization.

I think this is one of the wisest things I've ever read on PF.

The future of the RCC lies with the youth, not with the old - I think it's absolutely vital that they do something about the outright hostility that many teenagers/young adults have towards the Church. They don't have to fear the older people leaving - even Rydzyk knows fine well that if he left the RCC, the Church authorities and the Government would take him down almost immediately. But the youth of today are the leaders of tomorrow - and as we saw, these people are starting to find their political voice in Poland.

I think it has to be a priority to remove themselves from the political mess that they're in. They have a privileged position, I don't think they need to fear this position being changed - but they do need to fear the consequences of being seen as an ally of a hard right wing socially Government. 2005-2007 did enough harm to them, after all.

Catering to the Polonius' and Kondzior's of Poland might get them rabid support on the streets now, but in the long term, it is a destructive policy guaranteed to lead to what happened in Spain, Ireland and so on. It doesn't mean embracing abortion, gay sex and so on (no-one reasonable expects that) - but it does mean putting a stop to the excesses such as priests driving around expensive cars, building hideously expensive churches and so on.

c;mon DD, we both know why you and Harry are here. You guys are having fun (lots of it) on cost of many peed off (when provoked),God fearing Poles. I don't care what you say, it's freaking obvious, LOL

The RCC has the perfect opportunity in KRK 2016 to host a WYD, that all Polish youth will be proud to attend. With a simple message "This is your time & place"

Isn't this amazing? All of a sudden we find a dyed-in-the-wool Church-basher whose do-gooder heart is pumping purple pony p*ss over the welfare and future of Catholicism. The PRL regime also used to lecture the Church that it should be more progressive, go the road of leftist worker-priests in France, promote 'open' Catholicism, etc. Not, of course, out of concern for the Church but in order to undermine it, sow confusion in its ranks and break it up?

Some posters' feigned concern for the RCC, which they have so far discredited and scorned, would be like me saying I'm concerned about improving Gatesian gadgetarianism and pretending to love all the skype-shmype, MP3, scanning-shmanning, YouTubery and suchlike nonsense.

What's more amazing is that your agenda is so terribly obvious.


Yes, you would be rather familiar with the PRL and the methods used, wouldn't you?

For what it's worth, you're the last person that should be lecturing anyone about the Church.

Any keen observer of the PRL scene could see through all the hand-handed social engineering, phoniness, propaganda and scams. Now the PO has taken up the torch and is continuing that tradition.

But why the sudden feigned concern for the future of the RCC. Suddenly you seem to have its welfare and future at heart? Sounds fishy to me!

DD, you can't deny that Polonius3 is much smarter than you thought he was ;-)

Yes, anyone conducting "keen observation" in the PRL would certainly see this. What their motive was for "keenly observing" is another question.


What does PO have to do with the RCC habits of Poles, apart from the fact that many Churchgoers and priests support PO?


I don't think it's in anyone's interest to have a Church weakened and divided, not least because of how a cornered animal tends to react.

Inquisitevess, keen observation of people, places, things and event in the coutnry one is based in is part and parcel of every journalist's job. I'm surprised you didn't know that?


Now the PO has taken up the torch and is continuing many of the PRL's methods such as ham-handed* social engineering, phoniness, propaganda and scams.

*Sorry about the typo hand-handed!

It is strange that some journalists were allowed to remain when the majority of Western journalists were swiftly kicked out in December 1981.


How strange that you would describe the faithful as being into "social engineering, phoniness, propaganda and scams". The PRL is dead, Polonius.

Twisting things again? I have made it clear it was the PRL regime that used such practices agaisnt the Church and all patriotic Poles. PO is doing a fair job co ntuing that legacy.

Well, then I guess you guess wrong.


And what are those criteria, delph?
I know nothing of the precepts of the Church to be the criteria to judge whether people are Catholics or not.
I've also never heard that a Catholic stops being a practising Catholic when he/she doesn't go to church every single Sunday, but, let's say, every second Sunday or when he/she isn't fasting :)

Looks like you're more petty and bureaucratic than the Church :)

Here is the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a3.htm

"2041 The precepts of the Church are set in the context of a moral life bound to and nourished by liturgical life. The obligatory character of these positive laws decreed by the pastoral authorities is meant to guarantee to the faithful the very necessary minimum in the spirit of prayer and moral effort, in the growth in love of God and neighbor:"

It doesn't say that if you don't fulfil one of the precepts or whatever then you're not considered a practising Catholic, or even better, a Catholic in general.

Those precepts are supposed to guarantee sth not judge someone as far as I can see.


"Would say?" Did you actually ask them?
Did you ask them whether they consider themselves Catholics? And why they do (if they do)?
Did you ask them whether they go to church? Whether they believe in God? Whether they pray? Whether they are religious?
That would be a great opportunity to find out sth, if you have such friends. Ask them, if you're so interested in this subject.

Btw, as I wrote already in one of the threads I know people who are religious Catholics but they rarely go to church or almost never.


Oh, I'm sure it isn't 92.2% of practising Catholics. But the fact that one isn't going to church doesn't mean that this person isn't a believer and doesn't consider himself/herself a Catholic. He/she may be a lousy Catholic, but still a Catholic :)

So I don't know what practising or not practising has anything to do with being "right wing socially" (whatever that means). I'm a religious Catholic and I vote for PO. Just like majority of my family. Part of my family also votes for Ruch Palikota lol My grandma one time voted for PO, one time for PiS, but she doesn't go to church, because she's old and sick and the church is too far away for her. Interestingly enough she's quite critical of the local parson :)

The most religious (and I mean really religious and practising) of my classmates at highschool was very tolerant and liberal and a fan of Pedro Almodóvar films. There was something almost saint-like about her, everyone liked her - classmates, teachers, she was my friend and a kind of spiritual inspiration.

Another of my classmates was the "popular girl" type, she was rich, pretty and rather shallow, she liked partying hard, etc. To put it short - you wouldn't suspect her of ever becoming religious. She wasn't going to church and didn't like it. Then she suddenly converted, started going to church and her mum even bought her a Bible illustrated with works of art of famous artists and gilded edges of pages for her birthday. She told us it was because she had a dream in which the satan grabbed her, dragged her into darkness and told her she will go to hell. And she remained religious which didn't prevent her sharing room, living together, with the only gay boy I knew of in our highschool.

So, as you can see, people are different, even if they're religious, delph.

My mum also is a religious Catholic and votes for PO and detests PiS to the point that she can't even watch Kaczyński on TV - she changes channel when she sees him lol What's more she was brought up in the countryside and we all live in the land of PiS supporters.

Of course as far as voters are considered I really doubt there are any religious people voting for SLD, and probably the same thing can be said about the voters of Ruch Palikota. But in last parliamentary election Ruch Palikota got 10.02 % and SLD got 8.24 % of votes. PO got 39.18%, PiS got 29.89% and PSL 8.36%.

And we have to take into consideration that only 48.92% of Poles eligible for voting took part in those elections. So we don't know how the rest would vote.

Of course we also don't know how many atheists voted for PO, PiS and PSL.


Why is that?
Btw, I really, really doubt Harry made this thread because he wanted to understand anything. He made it to rub it in Polonius3' face that there was "a 45% fall in church attendance in just two decades". Polonius writes all the time that Poland is a Catholic country and it clearly gets on the nerves of the two of you. Plus Harry is obsessed with Polonius3.

And that's the reason of your nitpicking too, delph. You don't like the fact that still a lot of Poles declare themselves as Catholics. So you're trying to prove that they aren't really Catholics. So even if they consider themselves Catholics, you'll say they aren't "real Catholics" and this will make you feel better for some reason or at least you think you will pin Poloniu3's ears back :) I like you, delph, but I can see through what you guys are doing ;)


OK.
Btw, the data from RCC indicate how many Poles attend the Sunday mass on regular basis. So I guess "regularly" means every single Sunday. That's 40.0% of Poles going to church every Sunday. Only Malta has a higher result, did you know? It would be interesting to know how many people attend the Sunday mass "now and then".

If you're interested I've read there were 459 apostates in 2010, people who formally left the Catholic Church in Poland.


Of course, nothing surprising about this.


"A cornered animal"? Interesting comparison lol You mean the Church will react with mindless violence when it will be "weakened and divided"? How do you imagine it will react?


You are obsessed.

(Paulina, it's nice to have a reasonable debate about the RCC without the usual nationalist nonsense)

I need to reply properly, but I thought I'd quickly reply to this -


I imagine it'll react in a bad way for everyone - you'll have bishops fighting for influence openly, the Church will get dragged down in a mess of political infighting and you would see the sudden decline of the Church. What I mean by the Church behaving like a cornered animal is that it would react irrationally - with the consequences of the faithful leaving in droves. No-one would be attracted to a Church that is divided and fighting, would they?

That's why I think a strong Church that is able to appeal to the youth is the only option to try and reverse the decline - the old people will go anyway, but the youth are demanding a Church that represents them and their needs, not a Church that represents bitterness and hatred.

UPI's Ruth Gruber, an American Jewess now working for the Jewish Telegraphic agency, was the only Western journalist kicked out after Dec. 13, 1981. All the other correspondents for AP, Reuters, ANSA, DPA, AFP, NY Times, Frankurter AZ, Le Monde, etc., etc. were not. Where do you get your skewed information from?


It's a question of aiming for ideals v the nitty-gritty of humdrum, stupid, daily life. Do people always achieve 100% ideals in whatever they do? You may not regard yourself as a lawbreaker, but you are if you have ever driven at 65 km/h in a 50 km/h zone. Do people who consider themselves honest ever fail report some tip, gift or gratuity on their income tax forms?

The point is that trying to make ideals and actual practice of the RCC faithful into something unique or unusual is either ignorant or downright malicious. That disparity occurs everywhere -- always has and always will.


How do you define this? A feel-good Church that tells young people 'anything goes' and 'whatever rocks your boat' is OK might gain some cheap and easy popularity, but what would be the point? The Church is to provide an ethical compass and spiritual depth enabling people to cope with life's numerous vicissitudes and resolve diverse moral dilemmas.

Polonius, why do you assume that 'anything goes' and 'whatever rocks your boat' is what young people want?

Thank you Paulina for stating the obvious truth about this thread.

True again. Many of the Catholics who go less often to Church, are Cultural Catholics.
They were raised as RCs, and have some connection spiritually, they will participate in the more important events (Christmas, Easter, etc), their faith can change on how they feel, etc.

A nice piece of common sense to match Paulina's

It's been the same all along. Three points are required for a grave (mortal) sin: a serious matter, an awareness on the part of the Catholic of its seriousness and the resolve to do it anyway. When in doubt the priest in the confessional can clear up any uncertainties.

Polonius3
'kay, then.. is extramarital sex or masturbation a mortal sin?

only if you do it to yourself but not if you let someone else do it for you.

If you are aware of its seriousness and do it anyway then yes -- it is a grave sin. The term mortal has not been used officially since Vatican II. But your confessor is there to dispel any doubts or uncertainties.

Here is our loophole! No, I am not aware if its seriousness. :)

But you are now. Make a good confession and go and sin noi more! Presumably if you really did not regard it as sinful it shouldn't have been counted as such, but looking for loopholes is like trying to outfox God. As I indicated before, your confessor can set your straight when in doubt. Believe you me -- he has heard it all!!!

Just to lighten things up a bit, your remark triggered an old ancedote. Dunno if you know who WC Fields was (a film comedian of the silent-screen and early-talkie era). He was a known atheist and when someone came to visit him, he was on his deathbed reading the Bible. The visitor was surprised: 'Reading the Bible? But you've been a life-long atheist'. To which Fields replied (in his inimitable twang): 'Just looking for loopholes.'

I know. I've been told I make a great stand-up comic and should definitely be on the stage... And there's one leaving in ten mintues!

Who has thus far decided what is or isn't a mortal sin?
People.
I have never heard or read of any documented accounts of any infinitely-knowing, eternal being stating anything for the record. Everything has been written by people based on hearsay from thousands upon thousands of years old.

Enjoy the following page (it offers great perspective) and then seriously ask yourself if there is a creator and if it really cares if people get married before they get down for some.

htwins.net/scale2

^that isn't to say I'm against marriage by any stretch but trying to tell others their soul is in jeopardy because of it is quite simply saying things you're not qualified to say. In fact, it stands to reason that any such claims by people should be dismissed unless there is evidence to support their message being from divinity: )

The Catholic Church teaches that the Pope, the Vicar of Christ, is infallible when he speaks ex cathedra, ie issues an encyclical or other official pronouncement on dogma or doctrine. Some off-the-cuff quip at an ad-libbed presser abroad a plane is not ex cathedra.

Catholic teaching is the combined wisdom of centuries, nay -- millennia of theological deliberations and
anaylsis by divinely inspired Doctors of the Church, periodically updated by successive Council and Synods also fucntioning under the inspraiton of the Holy Spirit.
Of course, anyone is free to believe or disbelieve.

If I'd wanted to do that, I'd have just pointed out the 45% decline in Poles who go to church and completely ignored the far larger increase in Poles who take communion, wouldn't I.


Er, no it does not, as you'd know if you read the links to the methodology of the survey. The survey is simply a snapshot of a single Sunday. As I stated in the very first post of this thread.

It's rather unfortunate, not least because it means that the survey can easily be effected by outside factors, e.g. in 2008 23 November was the Sunday chosen but there was heavy snow and so the number of people at church was a tenth lower than the figure for the chosen Sunday in 2207 (40.4% vs 44.2%, respectively).


No it is not. As I stated in the very first post of this thread "the RCC calculates its percentages based on only "82% of the faithful" as it estimates that 18% of Poles are either too young, too old or too sick to attend mass and so are not expected to attend."

Perhaps if you spent more time actually reading my posts and less time making up fictional reasons for my posts, you'd be better able to debate them. Anyway, back to the topic, do you have any thoughts why there are so many fewer of 'the faithful' but the faithful which there are seem to be becoming much more 'faithful'?


Your first post back from a long ban and you use it to make no comment at all about the topic of this thread but instead to attack me; how surprising. Given that your second post was more of the same, looks like you won't be here for long this time.

So a group religious people teach that their elected leader is always right when he speaks about their holy book...okay then.


You state that last part as though it's a fact when it's nothing more than an opinion while conveniently leaving out political, economic and a lack of scientific understanding influences shaping Catholic (and many other religions') teachings.

I'm not saying it's all garbage because I don't know but at least be honest in how you choose to portray what and how Catholicism came to be. Y'know, just to be consistent with what it is you supposedly believe in.