Investors/Entrepreneurs.. Steer Clear of Poland.

I've spent over 3 years in Poland and been operating my restaurant for the last 6 months, so I am not speaking without merit.

My bookkeeper told me the first time we met "you choose the worst country in all of Europe to do business in" and now I am completely in agreement with her.

However, after investing almost one million złoty into the business and going through hell, I'm going to stick it out. So your "if you don't like it, leave" comments are falling on deaf ears. I have nothing left to loose.

Here are some of the things that you will find problems with.

EMPLOYEES
I guess what they say about all the "good workers are in other countries" is true. It has been a real PITA to find good workers. Everybody wants a job, but nobody wants to work. I have no idea what the problem is. The CV's are constantly coming in, but out of 100, there might be 5 that are worth interviewing.

We hire students to work thus saving lots of money not having to pay ZUS for them. 90% of our workers are having their first job ever.

Then when it comes to the interviews 4 of the 5 candidates are no-calls/no-shows thus wasting our time.

When we hire someone, they are having to learn how we do everything. It's really easy work. Some can pick it up easy, others just can't figure it out and are let go.

It really chafes my a$$ when I come in and see that the supervisor/workers are sitting on the prep tables, yet there is something that could be cleaned. "Time to lean, time to clean". I don't pay ppl to sit around.

I look back to my teenage/20's years when I had my restaurant jobs, I busted my butt to learn everything and move up through the ranks of the kitchen. I never see that with my workers. e.g. Leaning up against the sink while drying a tray just shows me that you really don't care to be here. Thanks for coming in... you'll get paid on the 10th of the next month.

UTILITY COMPANIES

ELECTRICAL: If you need to increase the power of your shop from its original allotment, you will need to have complete assessments, diagrams, permissions from the owner of the building, flats living above you in the same address, and hire a licensed contractor with the correct rating to do the work. You will have to make multiple trips to ENEA to submit things, sign things, ask a question that nobody in the "phone info service" is able to answer. You will also need to sign a new contract for the increased power allotment. Be prepared for them to charge you thousands for this change, not to mention the thousands for the actual consumption. The ENEA invoice is full of extra supplemental charges. 2 months of power for a 110m2 restaurant was 3400zl for me.

GAS: It was absolute hell to get a new gas meter installed into my place. I had to get a higher flow meter than the previous one. I spent close to the equivalent to a full work shift over 1 week dealing with so many different people in PGiNG. I was told to see 1 person in one office, and after 1 hour, told to go to another office about what I needed. Then that person said that I don't need to talk with them, then I was to see another person in a different office in a different part of the city. If I had to take buses and trams all over the place, I'd be even more furious with this circus. In the end, I got what I needed, but it took almost 1 month after I started. Don't get me started on how much time was wasted on getting a new contract.

All utilities companies amaze me that they actually can do the job. Nobody knows what to do & they just keep passing the client from office to office, with the hope that the client will get frustrated, give up and go home.

PRODUCE VENDORS

Everyone want's to do business with you. At first. I'll talk about my vegetable suppliers. They give you the best quality for the first few weeks, then the quality drops and you start to get the crappy over-picks. This has happened with 3 different suppliers. I paid COD so I had no running tab with them.

Potatoes are a main ingredient of my business. I can't believe it is so hard for me to find a good company that will work with me. I've gone to the wholesale market and talked with a growers who were more than willing to supply us with potatoes, the right size and delivery. On the first days of delivery they never showed up. They were never reachable by phone for following weeks. After going to see them at the wholesale market and ask what happened- they said they "forgot". As for not answering the phone- "I don't use it much". Ya right. Here in PL, ppl have their phones everywhere with them. Lame excuse.

Beware that everyone "has a friend" with "this and that". This surely always leads to problems.

Now I just go to Makro/Selgros and get my produce and other items. Screw private companies that just can't do the job.

OTHER COMPANIES
No company will keep their date for when you need something. E.G.- Print shops will typically be 5 days over the "expected day of completion" & there will always be a problem.

When you have a piece of machinery which is in need of warranty repair, the company will do everything to try and weasel their way out of honoring the warranty. They see a foreigner and will try to milk you for "a costly repair", even though you know it is a warranty fix. I stand my ground, and will not be pushed over. I'm lucky to have a good lawyer who can draft letters reminding companies of their responsibilities. Also communication with UOKiK doesn't hurt.

KRS REGISTRATION
I have a Spółka Komandytowa and it is a real PITA when I need to make any change to it since it's inception. The last change took 9 weeks to be completed. They always needed to see the originals of the documents that they took copies of earlier and so on and so on. They are so incompetent. They have many gatekeepers and you can't get to speak to any one regarding why it is taking so long. Be prepared to bang your head on the wall regarding this.

BANKING/CREDIT
FYI- In order for you to get any credit from your bank or credit company, your company must exist for 1 year and have trading for over 6 months before they look at you regardless of your deposits in the account. Luckily, I never had to ask for credit, but I did look at it for the purchase of some of my restaurant equipment. It was better for me to buy everything outright for tax purposes.

IMMIGRATION/RESIDENCY OFFICE
You will have one hell of a time when it comes to your residency status shall you not be an EU national and not be married to a Polish spouse. They will give you a form with all the necessary documents(20+) to supply for them. Just wait for them to ask you for another 10-20 documents regarding the operation of your business, employees, U.S., ZUS etc. You will need to get zaświadczenias for everything and supply a boatload of documents.

My business partner and friends can't believe all the trouble that I have gone through. They are actually embarrassed that it is so difficult for a foreigner to live and set up a business.

In closing I must say for someone wanting to start a business with sales to the public, think about what I have written and I hope you have an easier time of it than I did.

Like they say in Poland "life is brutal and full of traps" it is the truth.

Perhaps you should learn how to manage people, this does not appear to be your strong point, otherwise you would not have failed miserably.

You honestly expect someone to chop his butt for minimum wage? Get real. Instead of ******** give them an incentive (a raise) or roll up your own sleeves if you want your business to prosper, what makes you think it would be any easier in Poland? Because the wages are low?


You haven’t done your research properly, instead of blaming the laws and bureaucracy blame yourself for failing to do so.


Four words for you (quality demands premium price).


You still haven’t explained how this differs from any other place? Like where you’re from you never encounter any unforeseen complications setting you back.


Bureaucracy, the point is that it's you who suppose to have all of the documentation pertaining to your business on hand, not some government agency.


Once again business is business and how your Bank deals with your risky venture is something to be sorted out between you and the people extending your credit line.


I suppose it’s different here than in US? The difference is that now you’re the one who has to deal with immigration status, finally hitting home, so stop bit**ing.

Conclusion – a rant of spoiled Yank who would have avoided some of the complications if he set up his business in his own country like; IMMIGRATION/RESIDENCY and cheap labor force due to overabundance of Mexicans.

Absolutely agree


Raises the cost of doing business immensely, bad for the economy as a whole. It shouldn't take that much effort to get something simple done.


The problem is even paying a premium, you don't get constant quality. Same problem in CZ. We got smart and started buying from the Vietnamese. Consistent quality.


They have to be current documents...which the government issues. Are you defending the stupidity of this?


Plenty of truth in it though...Why reject improvement?

Agree it’s up to the small business owners to put some pressure on government to reform some of the way the business is done.


Same can be said of the grosser or any other small business in the US, been there seen it. As a costumer you pay a premium price for the product yet the quality is not there. So the problem is either with the grocer who wants to maximize his profit or his supplier. It’s not an exception either it’s a norm. I don’t see any difference.


It’s not stupidity, sadly it’s the way things are, reform is in order but if he done his research he would have known that.

do you know how much i pay my workers? No. So you have no grounds to say anything about it. I pay more than minimum wage btw. Between 8-9 brutto for start on an entry level job. I pay more than KFC, McDonalds etc. My friend is making 5.50 brutto selling jewelry in a kiosk. It's not my problem that the government has kept a clutch on such poor wages. I spend over 80 hours a week in my restaurant doing everything from scrubbing pots, cooking, washing floors and windows, entering invoices into the PoS, shopping, sourcing new products so shut it. Really... I don't have to justify myself to you or anybody. What do you do for a living? Do you work for someone or are you your own boss?


so you know everything about how every company works? Gee... I guess I should've called you then. Tell me ol' wise one- how is someone to do research on utility companies and what would someone on the outside find? Nothing. Was I blaming anybody? No. The workers in these companies are not even capable to direct the customer to the correct departments. How is that my fault?


so? I paid the same price for the good stuff... then i got the pickovers for the same price. Would you stand for that? Probably.


Have you got your KRS docs from them? Tell me how to get them to work faster. I can only get the documents from them when they give them to me idiot.


I don't need credit. I have financed evthg myself.


I've been here 3 years tool, and this has been the worst application in that time.


I'm not american[sic] thank god. The U.S. sucks and will implode in the next year. Just wait until "October Surprise". Then the sh!t will hit the fan.

Typical, a foreigner complains about exactly the same things that Polish people complain about constantly - lazy employees - awful bureacracy - idiotic self-defeating regulations - bad business practices and suddenly these turn into things to defend at all costs and it's his fault for thinking his job is to run a restaurant and not know the Polish legal code ahead of time.

Polish people _love_ complaining, unfortunately they mostly don't want to expend any effort to make things better themselves and they'd rather eat razorblades than agree with a foreigner's criticism of their country.

so the last 3 times I've made a change to my KRS registration it took about 3 weeks maximum to be completed. So how is it my fault that this last time it took from April 1 to June 9 to be completed? EXPLAIN IT oh wise one.

Tell me...how does one do research on how the KRS system works? You spout off about "research this, research that" well.....show us big guy.

I have more important things to do than do research on things that I cannot find nor read.

SHT- Your nick is par for the course of how you come across there internet tough guy. Too bad you didn't pick the word "internet" to put between "hair & thug" then your nick would be more fitting when spelled with an acronym.

I beg to differ, he turned this into one big rant as if was cultural difference. Point is there’s room to improve and government regulation is at the top of the list but all of his sub points are the very same things that plague the small business owners all over the world. Tell me how is it the fault of cultural difference or even government when it comes to dealing with the Banks? Get over it.


Who knows but given your statement that they had all the paperwork already you probably submitted it somewhere down the road and now it’s the agencies fault for your own stubbornness. Next time submit all the documents required, problem solved.

what does me knowing the Polish legal code have to do with my situation? What parts of the legal code should I know about? You know nothing more about it other than what i posted.

Read it again, I was trying to defend you nimrod, I won't make that mistake again.

Perhaps only the one that deals with the way you expend your business. If not you learn as you go so whose fault is it?

I wonder if every restaurant in Poland have similar issues and how they deal with that. I noticed a lot of new restaurants in Poland on my last visit. It can't be that bad...

I have to agree with nauczyciel's statement about people not returning calls or not showing up for appointments. Many people bring this kind of behavior with them to USA but they get cured from it quickly.

SHT, one of the many problems with Polish bureaucracy is that it's structured so that the person dealing with it needs to know the regulations better than the people whose job is enforcing them.

And, there's no way on earth to know all the necessary regulations ahead of time. A normal person finds out enough to get started and then makes adjustments as they find out more. But Polish bureaucracy isn't structured so that you can do that easily, get to stage 8 and if there's a problem with getting to stage 9 the Polish system wants you to start from 1 again.

I never said anything comparing PL to another country or culture. You put that in there.


I DID submit all as required. They wanted to see the originals over & over and make copies which they did at time of the original submission. Read it again. My stubbornness?? About what exactly?

Also... fyi- one can submit additional documents to the KRS office regarding their company at any time. Not applicable to me in this case.

This is going to be good!


Worst country? What about Bulgaria, where corruption is rife? What about the UK, which has such a ridiculous tax system that you cannot even obtain an official judgement without going all the way to the very top court in the country? Or we could talk about Greece or Spain, where the bureaucracy is absolutely stifling - worse than Poland! Or even just France with their protectionist measures and ability to drown you in paperwork if the local mayor doesn't like you.

Poland has problems, but what country doesn't? Even Switzerland has all sorts of problems related to being outside of the EU and the cost of domestic goods being sky-high.


In all honesty, anyone who does their homework in Poland doesn't go "through hell". But it does require planning ahead - isn't there a saying about **** poor planning leads to **** poor performance?


Nothing new there. But then again, it's related to wages - after all, money is what motivates people.


Then don't hire students, but hire experienced staff. The fact that you're hiring 90% inexperienced workers says a lot about your business practices - that you're cutting corners on staff. I'm really not surprised that you're having problems if you're hiring only inexperienced workers!

I know someone who owns a restaurant here. All of his staff came highly recommended from other employers, and he pays them significantly more than minimum wage. Guess what? He doesn't have problems. It's Business 101 - or more accurately - pay peanuts and get monkeys.


Which is why you don't interview people with no experience if you want your place to succeed - unless they show a desire for the job that goes over and beyond handing in a CV. Again, basic hiring rules.


Or you could pay more, pay ZUS and get people who are actually capable of doing the job properly. What serious restaurant hires people who are completely inexperienced? Sounds like a recipe for disaster!


Anyone who quotes "time to lean, time to clean" has been reading the McDonalds guide to employment. Seriously - if you don't show a human touch, are you surprised you get useless, robotic workers? Expecting people to work hard for just above minimum wage - seriously...


Yes, but most of them are students and aren't going to have to "bust their butt" through the ranks of a restaurant - because most of them will be doing far better jobs. Somehow, if you're hiring inexperienced staff and not paying ZUS, you really aren't going to get a superior quality of worker. Seems to me like most of your problems are related to the fact that you're simply trying to cut corners on staffing - which never works!


No different to how it was in the UK prior to deregulation. In fact, you should be thankful that you can even visit them - those days have long gone in the UK.


Did you not think about going with companies that came recommended from other restaurants? Trying to cut corners again, I suppose.

(I must admit - I wouldn't want to eat somewhere that obtains their supplies from Makro/Selgros - it shows what kind of operation you're running!)


Completion dates are never a problem for me - possibly because it's made clear from the outset that doing the job late means that they won't get paid for the job. It's just the way things are here, no different to dealing with Indians or the Chinese.

As for warranty repair - nothing new in Europe in general.


Things are changing, but what do you expect when these laws were formulated in 1990 when no-one had much of a clue about anything? Of course, the sensible thing to do is to get it right first time, rather than bothering them with constant changes. I haven't had to change a thing about my business since I started - but that's because everything was covered, registered and dealt with at the time.


Good for them - the Polish banking system has always been very responsible in this respect. You really can't complain about banks being responsible lenders - deposits mean nothing, because you could easily borrow the money from a friend. Seems to me like you're complaining about a positive thing!


Yes, and? Life is difficult for Polish citizens to go and live in Canada - why do you expect them to make it easy for you? You're hardly a huge investor here - and the fact that you're employing people without paying ZUS doesn't exactly make you attractive either. Ultimately, you should be thankful that you can even get residency here - you'd find it nearly impossible in Germany, Austria or the UK.


It's not difficult if you can follow the rules as published.


Sounds like it's his weak point to be honest - hiring monkeys, failed deal after deal with other businesses, inability to get credit - it sounds all like he doesn't have a clue. Then again, it's the same guy who couldn't understand why the police took away his documents for having an illegal car.


Expecting students (who have a bright future ahead of them) to bust their butt for minimum wage is really unrealistic. Perhaps things are different outside of Europe - but here, no-one is going to bother. If he paid 15zl an hour, things would be different - but he's obviously too cheap to do that.


8-9zl? And you expect people to actually work hard for that? Hahaha. The minimum to motive people in a city in Poland is at least 12zl an hour - otherwise, forget about it.


The funny thing is, at least as far as I've found - the great rule in Poland is simply to take your time. Things aren't done here quickly, which is a blessing and a curse - but when you learn to accept it, life is much less stressful.

expend? Where does one find information online about the "legal code" about how to "expend my business?"

What does this have to do with anything?

I never said anything about expanding.

I've asked you over and over to provide me with this and still you can't provide it. Your material is getting old.

Are you a lawyer? DO all lawyers know all parts of the laws of a country? No.

Why do you keep talking about "fault"?

You made me laugh with that statement, really. Do you think that a waiter for 6 PLN/h will be eager to learn? LEARN WHAT??? How to wash dishes??? You said that 90% of your workers are student. If they are students, sorry its just merely casual job for them nothing seriouse and it's pretty naive to assume they will work hard for such money (or work "experience" ;DDD ). They are in your restaurant for 1-2 years so they don't look forward to get promotion.


Not only for a foreigner. Who told you it would be easy?

In Poland? Yes, they do. The final examination demands it.

Even if they don't specialise in it, any Polish lawyer should be able to find out very quickly as to the legal situation in any given circumstance - it's civil law and all codified - no need to trawl through complicated precedents!

I thought those Polish guys were supposed to be such hard workers? I mean, compared to those lazy Western European guys?

;P

Well, if you pay them 3 times the going rate for their profession ;)

Heck, I'd work hard for 180zl an hour!

Not for 6 PLN (1.5 pound) for an hour. If you expect good work you have to pay proper money

The problem is that Polish bureaucracy is a relic of the communist times when private business was discouraged and the system set up to limit it, it was improved on for 50 years and it won’t change in a decade. Having said that I’ve already sated that reform is badly needed or did you miss that? Whatever the reason we can agree that we need reform.


Agree but how is it any different than any other country whose name you’ll pick out of the hat at random? Now compound it with your own experience the way things are done in your own country and language limitation and you’re in deep sh*t but blaming everyone around you for your business not doing so well is not the way to go. Any reasonable person considers all those things that might hinder his business growth before taking the risk of setting up the business in an alien environment. He moans about every problem he encountered and blames everyone but himself for his own shortfall.


True not in those exact words but the intention is clear enough.


You don’t say. Talk to some people that were abroad to your own country and see for yourself if they didn’t experience the very same difficulties you’re experiencing now. It’s not the country to blame but the way you do the business in that country that might be a complete 180 of wherever you’re from. A simple conversation with someone who went through it all would make you realize some points you have never considered yet are the reality and something you have to deal with like it or not, hence I said research not some detailed study of legal system.

nice of you to chime in. I see you spent lots of your free time this evening to reply. I knew you couldn't wait. You always like to trash ppls threads/posts so have at 'er.


i never asked for credit you idiot. read it again. I merely looked into the requirements to get it. I have enough money to live on without working for the rest of my life if this venture fails. Could you do the same?

as for workers getting a first job- i'm giving ppl the break they never had. You know... every employer wants to hire someone with experience, but no one will give them that experience. I do.

My car wasn't and isn't illegal. If it was- it would have been impounded, which it wasn't.
Get over it.


what does not having to pay ZUS have to do with anything? make me attractive for what? It's a smart business decision. If you actually had a business which employed someone, you would do the same. Its not about cutting corners. If there is no legal requirement for me to pay it for my workers...then why should I? Why would a new business want to fork out close to 800zl every month for every worker?


oh and i guess if you started a fast food restaurant, you would be paying 15zl per hour to ppl with little to no experience?? yaaaaaaaa riiiiiight. Nice of you to call me cheap you prick. Go tell that to all owners of retail shops and restaurants around Poland. I'm sure you wouldn't have the balls. I pay more than the other fast food retailers in my city for entry level.

so why do you expect ppl to work hard? Its just a fast food restaurant... not a bank. there's no greater perspetives. Mind that for 6 PLN per hour no one would suvive on one's own. Its just a work for students to earn additional pocket money...

If they knew how much thety would earn before they got the job then they should work hard for they accepted the position. 6ZL an hr or 60, if they are employed to do a job then they should do it.

In my company, I pay my wprkers 10zl an hour and if they are not prepared to wk for that then goodbte, there are plenty of others who will. I have fired countless workers and they know now to take me seriously

well you can do what you are told to do but not be very eager to do more beyond the expectations. It sounds funny that he thinks ppl will look up every corner for more things to do when they already have done their tasks.

oj tam oj tam . In Poland there are a plenty of resteurant ( also foreign) their owners can deal with problems you mentioned... so ?

One million zloty on a 110 m2 restaurant, seems a lot of money, the only two cities you could be in are either Warsaw or Krakow


Can your staff make good tips.

It's a lazy Sunday evening, so what else to do but reply?


And then you complain about them not doing the job properly? Doesn't make sense!


Do you actually know how ZUS is calculated for people on umowa zlecenie/prace? The employer contribution is around 20% of the gross salary, so unless you're paying 4000zl a month brutto - something is wrong with your calculations.

Anyway, it's not a smart business decision at all. ZUS being paid is a big deal for many good Polish workers - and is essentially a deal breaker. Without paying it, you'll get people who don't need it paid - and those people are not going to care less about a restaurant job. Why should they? They have ZUS paid and are either students or married - and neither group is particularly going to give much of a toss about a restaurant job, especially with someone who quotes mantras like "time to lean, time to clean".


You went into fast food? My, my - that explains a lot. But by paying more, paying 9zl instead of 8zl isn't going to make much of a difference at all. At least in Polish cities, I've found that people aren't going to care less for less than 15zl an hour.

Maybe you simply went into the wrong line of business? Fast food is notoriously difficult to motivate workers, regardless of country - and when you're quoting mantras like "time to lean, time to clean" to them - they're just going to hate you and find ever more ways to do as little as possible. Bear in mind that there's always going to be a bit of resentment towards the rich foreign owner too - that's normal!

Must try this fast food place next time I'm in Szczecin though :) Could be interesting to see what the difference is between a Polish-owned place and a foreign-owned place.