Family law in Poland - want the Polish children back to the Irish courts

But like I said before. Keep chronological evidence of everything. If you can get WITNESSES to everything. Do not EVER answer her when you are in a temper - this will be used against you. Prepare an answer to every accusation she has made.

I think if people read the Hague Convention and related Child articles it may actually stop them writing inaccurate information here.

The point of it to bring the two parents and the the child/children back to the starting point, before the child/children were abducted. Its not for a court in the country where the children were abducted to,to decide what is right for the children. It is for the court who has jurisdiction over the children, which without doubt in this case, is the Irish court.

The article 13 defence, which says a child should not be returned to a place of danger, is very difficult to prove, as its most likely going to be uncorroborated verbal/written evidence from the from the abducting parent who has every reason to lie.

The critical action which should be taken here is that the Hague application should be made immediately and before any financial worries are considered. You don't even have to go to court in Poland in reality, although it wouldn't be helpful.

I took the time to read the whole Convention.
However, we should note: If the mother can provide evidence (neighbours, police reports, bank statements, school reports etc) that the children were forced to live in an unhealthy atmosphere or are likely to be in physical or mental danger if returned to live in the same house as the father, or the children themselves say that they are frightened - it is then up to the father to refute those facts.

No Court will force children to live in a family unit where there is imminent danger.

If the children are returned to Ireland you have to consider where they will live and who will pay for this..

This is why as the father - I would keep ALL lines of communication open, would seek/beg/plead for a reconciliation or mediation, in fact anything to keep the mother on my side.

I tried calling her today again and she texted she would call me later. She didnt. I got a mutual friend to contact her and she said she has no problem with the kids talking to me. Yet she doesn't let them.

To answer the poster above. She has none of the evidence you mention because there has not been any issues with the kids. We started having issues end of September. There have been no issues with the kids since they were born except I failed to take them to school when I got depressed. The childminder was organised to take over. That's it. one day.

She may try to say the house is unsafe as we are in the middle of renovating. It was only supposed to take the summer but I found wet and dry rot so had to replace all the interior floors, woodwork and pipes under the concrete floor. What should have been a few weeks decorating turned into major building work. I did my best but it was too much to get done while they were on holiday. It is not ideal but is far from unsafe.

Most of this is due to the stress of the extra work. The engineers report on the house was good. The house was not. It was unexpected. Luckily I kept a blog of all the work and it shows what I was doing was justified. She said in the last email that I had 'destroyed the house'

If she tries to claim that the house is unlivable, have you made a counteroffer of renting a flat for the duration of the work? That way when you go to court you can say that you are willing to rent a place that meets the court expectations of livable conditions while the original location is being brought up to snuff. Also, try and get 3rd party evidence that will stand up in court as to the problems you state to prove that you are trying to remedy the problems and make the location livable. As for witnesses, ask the your lawyer to get testimony and a polygraph results to help with determining what was happening before things went wrong. Such as what was said while you and the mother were off doing your own thing with friends. Sometimes things are said to others while the person being talked about is not present.

I have offered alternative accommodation and funds for this. Not sure on the use of polygraphs in court. I would welcome them if admissable. I'm afraid her parents will be happy to lie for her.

" ask the your lawyer to get testimony and a polygraph results "

I really wish people would stop posting rubbish like this. A polygraph? Is this an episode of Jeremy Kyle?
OP I would seriously recommend you get yourself to a parenting forum such as 'mumsnet' where you will get better advice.
Although Ant is probably already a 'mumsnetter' tbh..:)

I also have screenshots of her and her friend having a good laugh about me offering to sign over the house. They were emailing each other through my son's email account.

the thing is, OP, an Irish social worker might well agree that such young children living in what is essentially a building site with 'wet rot and dry rot' is not healthy for them.

Besides I hate to say it, but perhaps you should have married her.

All the rot is gone. I am in the process of laying flooring and skirting boards. It is not far from finished. She didn't want to get married for financial reasons.

That's what we call the opinion of someone across the pond. Are lie detector results even acceptable in Irish courts?


Roz, I seem to recall that you're also banned from mumsnet like me? :D

Lie detectors are not admissable in Irish court. Not sure about Poland which is where she would have to table the section 13b defence. I did a lot of reading of various case studies on the outcomes of said defence and am confident she hasn't a hope. Standard of proof is high and if she tries using the 'come to harm' defence due to the house renovations then it is well established in previous cases that if the children were in that situation before abduction and came to no harm then the risk of harm is not a viable defence. I'm quietly confident.

why yes I am...(again) but I blame my years on PF for that...:) Mumsnet is a different kind of environment with v clear 'boundaries' of behaviour which were obviously too high for me..:)

Nonetheless in this case, I think the OP would be best off opening an account there, as you can get some seriously good and accurate advice from a plethora of over-educated and under - occupied women who have been through it all, with all kinds of family situations.

delphiadomine regardless what side of the ocean I am on is irrelevant. the results of a polygraph test are admissible in court. it is up to the judge and jury to decide if the results are necessary in order to make a decision.

please check liedetector.ie/faqs/#.UymvRPI.t-p

gjene polygraph tests are NOT admissible in court.

Hopefully you read the associated child laws from Ireland which form part of this.


No its up to her to prove facts, she abducted the children from their habitual residence. She is in the wrong.


Our interpretation of this will be wildly different to a courts. The fact is that it is the state that protects the children and without doubt the Irish state can provide the care required for this family. It has to be said the opposite is true in Poland. This will not please a few on here.


How did they survive before? The state will provide as they did before. The mother screwed up and has incurred a boat load of expense. It would have been far simpler to do it right in the first place. IE go to court and come to an agreement with the father and the courts. The courts often agree the children can go back to live in Poland, especially if the mother can be trusted. Now, she can hardly be considered good mother material.

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If only these Mothers/Fathers took sensible advice (not from their friends) before vanishing with the kids. Its not rocket science and if they live with an abusive partner, the courts would definitely take a positive view, whereas you disappear with kids and your the one looking incredibly bad. The most common excuse for not going through the court is, I didn't have time. You didn't have time, but you had time to plan it. You can get in a family court the same day in the UK.

Spoke to a friend in Poland. He called her and is going over tomorrow. She has told him she will let me talk to the kids while he is there. Fingers crossed. Some progress. She will be listening in so not ideal. I will take what I can get for now.

Hi,
My husband is polish and has a daughter with his ex girlfriend years ago.
Daughter hasn't have his surname and even his name is not in her birth certificate, however he transfers money to her monthly though she is now 16.

We don't even live in Poland.
Is that really the law?

tel you what Ahar make him stop paying for his child if it makes you feel better.

I just wanna know if it's really the law. He hasn't seen her for ages as mum dosnt want it. So literally he is just father by blood nothing else.

So he only has another eleven years of paying for her (unless she leaves full-time education before then).


Be thankful the Polish court didn't know that when setting the amount he has to pay.

I had a similar case of child abduction in Wroclaw, Poland. I applied through Hague convention and got positive results. You need a good barrister to represent your case. It took long time, but I got the order to return to the children to Ireland. Polish courts are really fair and honest.

@Sam9984
I know your post re Hague convention is old but you had a positive result with a Polish barrister and wondered if you would contact me? Mazzyuk@me.com, any advice would be so helpful!!!