British married to a Polish woman and they have a son. Son's British Passport?

Britain isn't in the Schengen zone. Hence the need to show ID when entering and leaving.

Yeah forgot about GB not being in Shengen. Thanks for the clarification, and the kid is probably too young to have a normal ID he'd be carrying around all the time therefore he needs the passport...

They haven't started issuing ID cards in the U.K, have they?

And the child is probably too young for a driver's licence.

Firstly, we do not know the above to be fact. I would say it is very unlikely she is applying for a Polish passport as both parents have to sign for the Passport of a child in Poland or at the consulate. If she is trying to apply for a UK passport it would be the father that is the signatory as he is a British passport holder. Maybe she has a genuine reason to request the passport and if he is smart then he should escort his passport to the place it needs to be shown by his former wife.

Interesting. Care to back that up by providing links to judgments issued by the Polish Family Law Courts?

An 'automatic' guillotine order placing favour by virtue of nationality would have to be enshrined in law wouldn't it? Please provide a link to what section of the Polish law in respect of Family Law prescribes that mandatory consideration for the judiciary.

If you say it's not code law but common law, then provide a link to the precedent. If you say that because Poland is code law oriented and thus does not place precedent value on common law, then code law it will have to be.

As to your claim that the Polish parent will govern terms, is that set out in the legislation? If so, where? If not, what is the authority for that pretty broad reaching power?

As to your dissertation on the Hague Convention and the alleged Polish intransigence to their obligations, again provide a link to judgments from the Polish Family Courts which support your claims. Surely if the recovery failed at first instance by virtue of alleged intransigence on the part of the Police then the recovering party would refer the matter back to the court for non-compliance, thus there should be judgments not only showing the decision at first instance but subsequent proceedings in respect of the recovery phase.

Your intimate knowledge would suggest you're familiar with legal research thus we should expect to receive your findings forthwith. I look forward to reading your research.

Given however that you profess to not knowing the Polish language and given that judgments are probably not translated, it begs the question on what judicially derived basis do you assert your claims?


Ma'am, as has already been said, your son should seek proper legal advice asap to formalise parenting arrangements. If he can't afford it privately, then I'm sure England has community legal services paid by the government. A google search should reveal some options for him. Best of luck.

I see that your reading skills are as sharp as ever! That was not my dissertation on the Hague Convention, that was an extract from a report by the US State Department on international compliance with the Hague Convention, which is why I said here "Permit me to quote from a 2008 report by the US State Department on international compliance with the Hague Convention" and said here "Here's a quote from the 2007 US report the this issue:" Why not try reading what I actually write and arguing with that? Oh, sorry, I forgot: you can't.


My pleasure:
"POLAND: Case 2
Date of abduction or wrongful retention: 11-28-1998
Date Convention application filed:9-1999
Has child been located? YES
In February 2007, the father requested that the U.S. Embassy in Warsaw attempt to contact the mother and request consular access to the children. Although the mother did not permit a visit, the Embassy was able to make contact with the mother via e-mail, who reported that the children are well. On March 9 2007, the Polish Court granted limited custody to the mother, and suspended the father's parental rights, citing that the father had no involvement with the children's upbringing for approximately 10 years." From: travel.state.gov/pdf/2008HagueAbductionConventionComplianceReport.pdf

So a Polish court rewarded a Polish mother who had kidnapped children by completely cutting all access to the foreigner father. Surely this is just a one-off ruling, you probably want to claim. Unfortunately you'd be wrong again. Have a look at the case of H.N. v. Poland (Application no. 77710/01) heard in the European Court of Human Rights. Norwegian national, Mr. H.N. took Polish government to court after four years of trying to recover his children, who were abducted by their mother to Poland in 1999. The court UNANIMOUSLY held that there had been a violation of Article 8 of the Convention; held that there had been a violation of Article 6 § 1 of the Convention; and ordered Poland to pay EUR 10,000 respect of non-pecuniary damages and EUR 12,000 in respect of costs and expenses with any due taxes and interest. With your legal background, you'll doubtless know where to find info about the above case.

Here's an Australian father speaking about his experiences with Polish family courts: "The way Poland has handled my Hague Convention case can only be described as disgraceful.

I went to visit him last month and the Polish courts have granted 100% custody to the mother even though he is not Polish citizen and the Hague Convention strictly prohibits any custody decision until H.C is decided. The Hague case has been going for years now even though the mother has produced no evidence or reason of why he should not be returned to his home country. After completing a hearing in Australia the transcripts took a month to travel from the Polish CA to the court dealing with the case in Poznan even if they sent it via horse and cart it couldn't take that long! Now they are suggesting it will take a month just to translate them ??

The mother is using an inocent child as a chess piece in her quest for money even though she has taken a house in Poland which I paid for already." That is kidnapped2poland.org.

And here's an American speaking about the same thing "It seems that the Polish Courts found a way out to keep the children in Poland, even after the abducting parent was initially order to return the child back to their homes abroad.

After a 3rd instance appeals have been removed by the Polish legislature for the family disputes (divorces, custody cases, Hague Convention cases...), the Polish judges of the regional courts feel that ignoring the Hague Convention Law is a valid option, and ... they (the judges) are not afraid to use it.

In my case, the final court order to return my children: Amelia and Daniel back to their home in California, was issued in late 2001( after 2 years of judication!) and ... nothing happened. Polish family court "tried" to enforce the order, but had no much "luck" or will - the mother decided to ignore it and go into hiding, the local police could not find her for 5 years , and the responsible judge refused to grant the permission to publish my children's pictures in the media...).

Finally, in late 2005 the judges of the Appalled District Court in Gdańsk decided that the best way for the case to "clear their plates" is to ... break the law (article 16 in particular), suspend the "final" Hague Convention order for return, and push for the divorce case where they "suggested" to the presiding over divorce case judge that the custody should be given to the mother (!). " That is here

kidnapped2poland.org


Tut tut! Imagine somebody who claims to be such an intellectual as you not knowing that ECHR decisions are issued in English (and that US State Department reports are also issued in that language)!

Well,

If child need father then why they divorce for their own benefit or concern rather than thinking about child.

can some papers decide life of a human ... really **** ..... need to marry to the person whom u think can live all d life or rather than born a baby... in all cases baby is suffering ..

From the very little experience I have of Polish/British divorce cases (1, to be precise): the British mother (of Polish origin, able to speak Polish) was absolutely stiffed because the Polish side of the family was known to the family court. Wife-beating wasn't a real issue with the court, even though it had been reported to the police. The important thing was that the wife left the family (because she was scared for her own life).

A Polish child with a Polish mother will live in Poland. If you want to live in Poland, you will get access in Poland. A Polish court will not view an English father with understanding.

leaving the child aside for a moment
She doesn't need your son's passport for starting work again - in Poland or in the UK.

As for the child - she may want to get a British passport for the child and that's why she asks for your son's passport.

Since one parent is British, under the law the child is British national by default. She wouldn't need the father's presence, just his passport, to get a passport for the child.

So maybe that's the reason why she needs your son's passport.

/wiki/British_nationality_law
gov.uk/get-a-child-passport

Similar arrangements are in Polish Consulate but she would need a written permission from the father to get Polish passport for the child.

To be fair, I know of a similar situation which involved a Polish couple and was identical to the one which you describe: it went the same way before the court too.

Quite right. A dissertation involves research, individual thought and content largely comprising one's own hypothesis rather than mere quote.


Hhmm, I was unaware a judgment from the Polish court was really a two or three paragraph excerpt from a report. It's not, is it Harry. It's like all those times when I requested you to produce documents backing up your claims and I was met with either silence, irrelevances or insults. When is it going to end Haz?


Again, where's the judgment from the Polish court?


It's not unfortunate and I suppose if I wanted to claim it as being a one off ruling having regard to just those two cases you've cited I would probably be right because the Applicant H.N was successful in having his children returned, wasn't he?

cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/view.asp?item=1&portal=hbkm&action=html&highlight=77710/01&sessionid=54122744&skin=hudoc-en

(para. 54 and 64 of the above linked judgment).

See how easy it is to lie when you don't read and/or understand the proper document but rely on a snapshot written by someone else who wasn't even there.

Interestingly, can you report to the forum as to how many cases in Poland dealing with recovery of children under the Hague Convention have been lodged, then tell us how many were unsuccessful cf. successful and if the applicant was not succesful, then why.



Awesome research Harry - two anecdotes from two anonymous posters purporting to be disgruntled litigants on a blog site. Very probative. Perhaps you can correspond with "Anonymous Dan" and "Bogdan", swap notes, and use each other's quotes to support your own positions. Better yet, why not ask them for details regarding their purported judgments so we can really see what happened.


Fair suck of the sav Hazza - I was unaware that when I was asking you to provide judgments from Poland what I really meant was for you to provide anecdotes and an ECHR decision that was contrary to the claim you made and upon which you relied on same to support that claim. Funny that.

Instead of wasting your time knuckling the above gratuitous but ultimately back-firing riposte, why didn't you provide us with judgments and legislation supporting the following claims:

Harry:
You clearly have no idea at all about the Polish family court system or how it automatically places Poles over foreigners[/i].

To recap, if partially Polish children are in Poland, the foreign parent will only ever see those children again on the terms of the Polish parent[i].

I've italicised and used bold font for your convenience...

The guy is too fake, that is not usually how people speak in your region is it?:)

So when you talked about my dissertation, you were in fact lying, yet again. Good work Danny boy.


So you're using the Victory Parade line of reasoning again. There Poles claim that unless the invitation can be produced, there was no invitation. Here you claim that unless particular court judgments can be produced, there were no such court decisions.

It is hugely amusing to see you pontificating about a system which you have zero experience of that is in a country which you have never set foot in. When were you last in a Polish family court Danny Boy? I was in one the week before last. Permit me to draw a parallel here: I will now claim that Australia now has a perfect cancer treatment system and that no Australian who was being treated in Australia has died of cancer since 2004. Unless you can provide me with a link to an autopsy confirming that such a person died of cancer, that death was not due to cancer. So provide me with the links Danny Boy.


Please try not to lie Danny: there are also two quotes from US State Department reports. Reports which were written by people who are quite unlike you: they have been to Poland and have set foot in a family court. Please try harder.

They've split we don’t know the reasons, he could be a complete tw*t and therein lies the reason for her wanting to take her son out of the country, apparently everything is not hunky dory and amicable because she's lied.....and before we start calling all Polish women conniving b*atches, a friend of mine made sure she didn’t give birth abroad, she came back home so her son had a British passport, just a precaution just in case things went wrong when she was back living in Greece - if you think Polish courts are bad..look at how the Greek family court system works!!!!

Maybe the two of them should have a chat before he starts taking out injuctions and goodness knows what else!

I'm not sure how that will make any difference. Born to a British mother, the kid would have got a British passport anyway (assuming that the mother is British born) and born to a Greek father (assuming that he'd Greek by birth), the kid will still qualify for a Greek passport too (unless Greek law has changed significantly in the last eight years). When the kids in Greece Greek authorities are not going to recognise his British citizenship anyway.

The only way to avoid foreign family courts is to not have children.

Or get married, or co-habitate for any length of time.

Friend (English) was married to a Greek, lived in Greece, married in Greece, game back to the UK when she was about 8 months pregrnant (or whatever the latest was she could fly)...She wanted her son on her passport as a precaution..that was my point...They returned to Greece after the baby was born and all the paperwork was done and dusted. They then came back to the UK before he 6 was months old and she never returned with him because the marriage ended...Had she stayed in Greece to have the baby and they'd split, her husband would have got automatic rights to the child...hence the reason she came home to have the baby.

Where she had the baby has no impact on its citizenship. With a Greek father, the child qualifies for Greek citizenship. Although if one is already planning what one might do if one splits up with the other parent of one's child, perhaps one should not be having a child with that person.

Interestingly Greece is listed along with Poland as a a country "demonstrating patterns of noncompliance" with the Hague convention. I wonder why Ozi Racist hasn't sprung to the defense of Greece and insisted that you provide court judgments to prove what you say. After all, he's spent as much time in Greece as he has in Poland. Perhaps he's busy trying to find an autopsy confirming that Australian who was being treated in Australia has died of cancer since 2004. Wonder how he's getting on with the 2003 Coroners Act.

True but if that child is a British Citizen and is on her passport then she has peace of mind if there are problems


I couldnt agree more, but prevention is better than cure and since she'd heard all horror stories she thought she'd make sure she wasnt going to be a victim of circumstances if the marriage broken down - she could just get the hell out of there ;0)


So can you blame her for taking the measures she did?

Not at all. If I'd been in her position, I'd have done the same thing (in the unlikely event that when I found out I was pregnant I was too far along to have an abortion).

So to recap, the above was just a lie designed to insult a fellow Aussie and in making the fairly specific claims you did in criticising the Polish judiciary you indeed held yourself out as an armchair expert.

I called you out on the claims and despite the passage of some two days you have still failed to provide any sections from any Polish legislation or any judgments or indeed anything whatsoever to back up your claims. I'd comfortably say you've been owned again Hazza.


No, I didn't claim that at all, did I. All I asked for was objective evidence from you by way of legislation or judgments to back up your claims. I strongly suspect that some Polish court decisions are unreported meaning a judgment would not be accessible. Do you wish to now claim that your above first quoted claims were made based on the findings of unreported decisions and you can't produce the judgment because it cannot be produced because it's unreported? (hint: saying 'yes' will allow you to save face for the moment but if you do I'll have further comment for you which will probably make you regret that decision).


How is seeking evidence from a claimant pontificating? In any event, I'd rather pontificate and be right than verbally abuse and mock and be wrong. Wouldnt you?


Of course you were, that's why you're known on the forum as "Figjam Harry". Must have been a bewildering experience seeing how you don't know a word of Polish.


Of course Figjam.


Whilst somewhat miraculous, I agree with you Figgie, as Australia has a wonderful health system ;-). (*whispering* Do we really need to corroborate our claim with links? Let's just use each other's quotes as evidence to support our claim. If anyone challenges us, I'll verbally abuse them, you tell them you were in the operating theatre performing the treatments (keeping in line with your Figjam persona), and we can meet up for kebabs later on and give each other congratulatory high 5's).


Do you really want me to Figs?

The same specific statements of fact which are made by US government officials who, unlike you, have been to Poland, have read Polish law and have been to Polish family courts. You can't even claim to be a Polish armchair expert: you've never even sat in a Polish armchair!


You are entirely correct that family court judgments are indeed confidential. But of course that doesn't stop you from asking for them. Such a pathetic attempt at a debating technique there Danny Boy. Unfortunately the fact that judgments are not produced does not make them unreported. The sections of the report issued by the US State Department on Poland's "patterns of non-compliance" were written by consular staff who were in court to hear the judgments read out. But of course you know far far better what the judgments said than they did: you know everything about Poland.


Interesting that you know more about my linguistic ability than I do, must be just another example of your omniscience. Given what I know about the case, I was able to follow a fair bit of what was being said. Although it wouldn't have mattered if I'd followed nothing at all: I was only there to provide moral support. No doubt the arshole in question will appeal the decision which went against him and I'll be back at the family court in a couple of months. I'll get a photo of the door to the court for you next time. Better still, why don't you come here and act as our legal representative? I’ll pay for your plane ticket, so you can finally visit the country which you claim to fight a war to support. And you can explain to the judge that foreigners get precisely the same treatment as Poles by Polish family courts. At the moment it is apparently an issue with regard to child custody that the mother even has a foreign boyfriend.

Again, the above are the claims in question to which you have refused to provide support by way of legislation or judgment but now say:


whereas we both know that your reference to "specific statements" made by US govt etc. refer to the report on non compliance with Hague Convention obligations. Are you know saying that like you, US govt officials have also made statements to the effect that the Polish Court system automatically places Poles over foreigners and foreign parents will only ever see their children on the terms of the Polish parent? If so, provide a link to those statements. You're just trying to smoke and mirror though, aren't you Figjam.

I'm confused. If you say that Polish Family Court judgments are 'confidential', the court would be closed to all but the parties, their representatives, witnesses, the judge etc so as to prevent non-parties thwarting confidentiality by sitting in and taking notes of what was said during the hearing and coming up with their own version of the oral judgment. Are you alleging that US consular staff not only somehow sat in on the proceedings but reported and published their interpretation of judgments in defiance of what you say is meant to be strictly confidential. Unless you're now saying the US consulate is exempt, shouldn't you report your revelation to the Court Registry? Shall I alert the US consul to what you seem to say about what they're doing? This is potentially fairly serious Harry.

By the way, do you actually know what a judgment is and what it means to say a judgment is 'unreported', or are you just pretending to know?


If you think it requires an omniscient being to click on your profile and see that you profess to not knowing the Polish language then I guess you can call me that: I'll still call you Figjam though.


Please don't - I don't want you running the risk of being apprehended by the Bailiff for taking photos in a court precinct. If Polish courts are anything like Aussie ones, in the current cliamte of heightened security taking pictures in the court is a ticket to confiscation or the watch house.


I'd be no good to you or your girlfriend. I can't speak Polish, except swear words and other singular expressions.

In all seriousness, I'm sorry to hear your partner has had to go through the trauma of Family Court, and I genuinely hope she prevails with a just outcome for her child and presumably your step-son/daughter. I see the day to day misery and despair these types of proceedings can bring not only to the parent, and particularly the child, but also to new partners. Whilst it's abundantly clear that we fiercely dislike what the other says, you're a human being and a fellow Aussie going through a genuinley tough time and I empathise with what you are all going through. Good luck, and stay strong for your partner.

Dear Ozi Dan,

Your total arrogance about what Polish law says and how it is implemented is amazing. Well,
I can assure you that Harry is right.

I happen to be the father who runs the kidnapped2poland.org site since 2001 after my 2 children were illegally kidnapped to that country in late 1998 (Harry's quote of case #2 from US State Department Report to US Congress in post # 37).

Let me give few facts (not speculations) on realities of child abductions to Poland.

1. According to the Polish law, a parent who's parental right have not bee taken away, CANNOT be accused and prosecuted for abduction. Polish Supreme Court has issued rulings on the subject 20+ years, and this is the law of the land.

2. There is NO real enforcement of family court orders in Poland. If a mother (they get custody in 95% cases) decides to deny visitation order, she will do it with NO consequences. It happened to me during my 12 year ordeal to recover my son and daughter. It happens every day to a lot of parents in that country. My ex would not let even the social worker to see my children, when I was visiting Poland.

3. There is no concept of contempt of court or perjury charges in Polish legal system. Actually, you CAN be caught lying in court, and NOTHING will happen to you, because you ARE expected to lie there.

4. Oh... Polish government (family courts) will try to enforce routine child support orders in cases of ... international abduction to that country, even though article 16 explicitly forbids issuing ANY custody orders in such situations. It happened to me .... 3 times already...

5. My children were (allegedly) searched by the Polish courts and police for over 6 years. Finally, my ex was successful to "convinced" 3 judges to issue a divorce order, which competed directly with an early order to return children to US. From that point Polish Ministry of Justice and the courts refused to enforce the Hague Convention order - clear violation of Hague Convention art 16 and 17, and lets not talk about number of other international and domestic laws.

Problem with Polish law is that it still is based on law written during 1960(s) by communist government of that time. Pathetic.... That goes also for a majority of criminal law as well. Do you know, that you can go to prison to Poland for calling politician by his true name ie "moron".... ? OH... of course with the constitution guaranteeing freedom of speech for the world's benefit....

Two weeks ago, one of the major Polish Newspapers (Rzeczypospolita) had a piece on International abductions to Poland (especially from UK). The reporter who interviewed me, mentioned that in last couple of years child abduction from UK to Poland have risen to a crisis level, as a result of huge emigration to UK.

BTW, it takes ONLY one parent with a Polish citizenship for Polish authority to recognize / grant full citizenship rights to a child born ANYWHERE in the world. My child were born in US, left for Poland on US passports and .... 3 months after the abduction where issued recognition of their Polish citizenship .... without my consent, nor even knowledge.

So... I would be VERY careful when allowing any minor child to travel with their Polish parent, unless you are certain that he/she is not planing to "return" there for good.

Poland has been sued and lost few cases in Hague. You think this would help, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Sorry Dan, this thread must have fallen off the front page by the time by the time I next logged on after your post and only now that Bogdan has bumped it do I see it. Thanks for your kind words. I think that on this topic we're going to just have to agree to disagree.

Do let me know if you ever manage a trip to Poland, I'm sure that we'll both agree that the Polish beer I buy you is far better than Aussie beer!

This is not correct.

The first thing a witness is told is that if he/she is found to be lying then there is a risk of one year behind bars.

I know this from experience in court.

That's very... draconian. I am appalled by this whole thread. There's so much hatred and preemptive disapproval towards the mother of the child, it's as if she is a total stranger and an enemy.

Children now can't travel with their parents, because their parents happen to be Polish?! Their nationality makes them suspect? This is insane.

That's the theory. However in a case I know very well, a father submitted as evidence of his income a statement which claimed that his total income for the past three years was less than he'd been paying out in child support for those years. The consequences of submitting such a clearly false statement? Not a thing.

I have to agree with this conclusion. The Family and Gaurdianship Code from 1965 is appalling to western thinking. Polands adoption of European friendly laws appear to be overidden by this document. How many procecutions are there for beating children are there in Poland annualy? It appears from the FGC it is appropiate to beat your children with anything that comes to hand as it is good for them. It also appears this document takes precedence over modern law.

Currently my Polish partner and I are experiencing the delights of the judicial system. My partners children were wrongfully retained by her husband on a contact visit. Not only were they retained but they were drugged and her son was nearly suffocated. It was only by luck he never became one of the many child killed by parent statistics Poland is generating at the moment. We presented documents to the court from a psychologist who interviewed the boy along with countless other information only to have back from the court "I have looked at the documents, but I'm not doing anything!". By chance we recovered the boy 5 days after the abduction but the daughter remains with a psycho who spends his day telling her "we must kill mummy", "Mummy doesn't love you. She didn't give me some of your birthday cake", "look how can your mummy love you. What has she done to me" We know because we have the flat bugged.

There is NO Law to PROTECT children in Poland. There is only Law to FORCE people to stay together. My partner and her son have escaped their beatings, hopefully the HC will work for her 4 yr old daughter. Sadly I have my doubts as 9 days ago we started a 7 day process to allow my partner access to her daughter at weekends and my partner is now being told, she has made trouble for herself in court, and of course we have no answer. The court even told her yesterday "off the record" that if she wants her daughter back, move back to Poland.

In my opinion her children will always be Polish in whatever country they live, and by living and experiencing another country, maybe one day they will go back and make Poland a better place. Try telling a Pole that!!

if the childs father is british a passport can be applied for , as far as his wife she has to use his passport as prove for her reason to work in the uk but check with passport agency.