The usage and future of the special Polish letters: ą, ć, ę, ł, ń, ó, ś, ż, ź (Polish language)

Right. A native polish guy here, still living in PL. G is sounded indeed in this case.

<Sigh>

I think we need to start from the very beginning. Pronunciation of words is not ruled by individuals, and where they live, or don't live.

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fonetyka
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fonologia
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Rubach (one of my teachers at Uni, he was really the best!) ;-)
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regu%C5%82a_fonologiczna]
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mi%C4%99dzynarodowy_alfabet_fonetyczny

This should give you something to read and think about.


Well, then try to tell a biologist that frogs are mammals, or a chemist that water is an acid. Let's see them humbly accept those revelations.

Magdalena, you have lost at the start.

When two Poles living in Poland tell you we do not pronounce "także" with stressed G, you cannot win by presenting links.

I know you are stubborn but you are missing any trump in your deck of cards.

Do you know the term "extinct species"?

For example, a music expert will tell you "kobza" is special instrument played in Tatra Mountains, and the right name for bag-pipe is "dudy". Everybody however knows the bag-pipe is kobza.

Another expert will tell you that "szanta" was a old work-song, sung at trade tall-ships, by groups of sailors doing their work collectively, and it was sung rhythmically to ease up hard labour and making the labour more organized. Everyone will tell you however that "szanty" are those all maritime songs.

I see. So you don't even know what linguists do.


Yes, the subject is mildly interesting, but since you have some serious problems with describing your native Polish, I'd say that topic would be a little premature.

So, got that source from a living teacher of Polish?


There is more to the IPA than you seem to know.


Larynx is not used in the pronunciation of voiceless 'k'. Velum is. Larynx is used for 'g'.


hat's the same subtle difference when the English say 'car' where many swear they hear 'r' but there is no 'r' at all. Yu are expecting to hear 'k', but it's not there.


How about Antek whose credentials consist of knowing a few slangish expressions in Polish?

And since when are we talking about a stressed [g]? We have been talking about voicing, unless you don't even know what the hell that means. You better have a look at those links first after all. You are completely at sea here, I can see that now.

She lost?
You don't even know the rules of the game.
There is no such thing as "stressed G". consonants do not get stress. Syllables do.
Your competence in the subject is embarrassingly low.

Regarding the sea, see the update in my post above.

Linguists are scientists with no effect on living language. And I was attending "szanty" for 5 years now, not paying attention if "Gdzie ta keja?" by Jerzy Porębski was a sea-shanty or not.

I suggest you read this article. Hoping you will get more reasonable.

rockszanty.pl/2010/06/02/rower-szanty-rock-szanty/

I find it amusing when two non-Polish residents try to convince two Poles that they speak wrongly because linguistics says otherwise ;)

That's all very interesting, but what on earth does it have to do with the actual (as opposed to imagined) pronunciation of the word "także"? For a technical uni graduate you don't seem to have a very organised mind. You're jumping all over the place and your "arguments" completely miss the point.


Yeah, exactly like chemists are scientists who cannot influence the laws of chemistry, and architects cannot change the law of gravity and build houses in the sky. So what?


Oh but I am absolutely sure that you pronounce "także" in accordance with the rules of Polish phonology ;-) You just don't seem to know it.

I told you:
Two non-Polish residents, linguists at that, try to convince two Poles using the living language how they should speak their native language, by rules of linguistics in it.

I'll bring me more chips and wine. The thing gets more and more exciting.

The laws of physics are (in long perspective) constant. The language is living and changing very fast.
Do you wear "pantofle" or "palto" anymore?

Depends what language.


This adds nothing to the subject or upodobnienie wsteczne.
Show me some sources DESCRIBING the issue of consonant voicing in the Polish language. Still waiting.


Wrong.
Two Polish linguists...

They'd shoot down the argument, not attack the person. Which is what you are unable of doing.


I'm not expecting to hear 'k' and I'm not arguing it's 'k'. As for your car example:
dictionary.reference.com/browse/car

Both pronunciations (w/ and w/o 'r') are suggested. Maybe people do pronounce it only you insist they don't.

There are variants.
In some 'r' is absent.

"Polish".

You see, I'm a chemical engineer. I was taught the precision of the calculation of my profession will be good if we meet +/-20%. So good the theory and calculation methods are. You linguist, what are you thinking you are? God Almighty?

Yes, but scientist (physicists at least, as that's my background) never, and I mean never claim to possess the ultimate truth in any case. Unless they're very bad physicists. You OTOH claim to be the ultimate wisdom in your field.

I don't, but some in Poland do.
pajeczyna.pl/Sprzedam-odziez/474434-garnitury_spodnie_palta_marynarki_plaszcze_sprzedaz_i_produkcja.html

Still waiting for this reputable source describing g/k in 'także'


And what is it that you and Antek are doing?

We (I and Koala) are telling you and Magdalena that your wisdom "nie ma przełożenia na mówiony w Kraju język polski". Hope you still can READ Polish ;))))))))))))))

I only hear 'palto' and 'pantofle' in humoristic ways. Otherwise it's always kapcie or kurtka/płaszcz (even if technically palto would be better).


We are only stating how we pronounce it. You say that we cannot it pronounce it that way and that our pronunciation/hearing is imaginary.

No. I never did that. But unless you suffer from a speaking disorder, your pronunciation of your native language will follow a set of rules you are not even aware of, in exactly the same way you don't really "know" how your heart beats or your stomach digests food. Nevertheless, if a biologist describes these facts to you, you don't tend to question them. Why do you then question and deny the existence of phonological rules, when every time you say "wtorek" you actually say [ftorek], and every time you say "także" you actually say [taɡʒɛ]?


How very modest of you, indeed.

Polish linguists, living in Poland and describing her language disagree.
Koala is not one of them and neither are you.


You seem to hear things a lot, and the way you want to hear them. Fine by me.


That is correct.
Hence Lyzko's pronunciation was correct. If yours is different then it would be called hypercorrectness, which indicates unnatural effort in speech to pronounce sounds exactly as they are spelled, and nothing to be proud of.

Again with that nonscientific crap. A scientist always questions everything. He has to be confident in his theory to have some base to work upon, but he can never be certain.

If someone came to me with some layman physics misconceptions, I'd find better arguments than "lol you have no credentials" and "take my word for it", because once I was a layman who might have had similar misconceptions and had to analyze the issue.

Will you believe me z_darius that all Poles except the linguists give damn sh*t to how the linguists believe the language should be and do their best just to live and be able to speak to one another?

I hope you will be able to communicate with the rest of the Poles on your next stay in Poland.

Let me get this straight: if I lived in Poland and claimed the exact same thing (which I would) you would then accept it? Because I was physically present in Poland at the time?

I provided source to a Polish University's Institute that deals with the Polish language. Magda provided plenty others. What other credentials would you like if you provided none?

Well, I for one gave you guys a hell of a lot of links to peruse... Which you didn't seem very keen on doing.

What was the last time you heard "palto". As in, "zostaw palto", "powieś palto", "ubierz palto" etc.? Genuine question. If it was within the last 12 months, then we can start talking seriously, otherwise you should drop your arrogant and condescending tone.

Because it was your hobby, Magdalena.
You know, I do not convince everybody else sea-shanties are so fantastic music. You however were trying to convince me that "projekt warszawiak" was ringing with authenticity ;)

What? When I give you interesting links on phonetics and phonology, it has exactly what in common with another discussion in a different thread? Seriously now - are you drunk or are you trolling me?

My Grandma was a teacher of Polish for more than 50 years, Magdalena. She taught me writing. Please, stop. You cannot go further this way. You're simply not authentic.

Also, take it for granted: It was M. Jourdain who suddenly discovered that some theory about language exists. You do not need any linguistics to speak perfectly in given language. It is enough to live in given country long enough and take care.

Swarming anyone with links is not constructing an argument. My argument was that 'g' is used for phonetic transcription as it;s the closest sound but not quite the same, you failed to shoot it down, escaping to attacking my credentials and intelligence.

I think we're done here, I'm not used to "take my word for it" arguments.

I don't know all Poles.
Do you?


Just spoke with a friend from UAM this morning. She a biology professor there. I'm helping her with a translation into Polish.


The word wasn't used whee I lived.
My mother-in-law bought one last Fall. She still uses the word.