Maxxx Payne 1 | 195
16 Oct 2008 / #31
Polska = Puola - in Finnish
"puola" means also "ingnition coil" in finnish, go figure...
"Poola" is "Poland" in estonian
Poland in different languages?
"puola" means also "ingnition coil" in finnish, go figure...
"Poola" is "Poland" in estonian
mafketis:
they are different because of the "assimilation". For instance, the past tense of olvasom could have been olvastom in some time before, but the o has shifted to a. And some endings are shortened, pl. mondotta -> mondta ([he/she] said [it]).
I get your point, though. The conjugation charts are made up by linguists, and can be very confusing to follow. Home-made charts are more useful in the early stages, when you just want to grasp the logic of a language, not the actual and "dry" grammar. :)
Yes, because -lak/-lek has something like a reflexive meaning. I.e. olvaslak = I (I'll) read you -- LoL, you never say that in real life. I don't know the grammatical term, but it is used in a person-to-person(s) situation. Megmondalak [téged/titeket] = I('ll) report you / you lot; kihajítalak (kihajítlak) = I('ll) chuck you (lot) out etc.
they are different because of the "assimilation". For instance, the past tense of olvasom could have been olvastom in some time before, but the o has shifted to a. And some endings are shortened, pl. mondotta -> mondta ([he/she] said [it]).
I get your point, though. The conjugation charts are made up by linguists, and can be very confusing to follow. Home-made charts are more useful in the early stages, when you just want to grasp the logic of a language, not the actual and "dry" grammar. :)
That was 10 times easier to use (for me) than 'two conjugations' that don't even include all the endings (-lak/-lek isn't included in either).
Yes, because -lak/-lek has something like a reflexive meaning. I.e. olvaslak = I (I'll) read you -- LoL, you never say that in real life. I don't know the grammatical term, but it is used in a person-to-person(s) situation. Megmondalak [téged/titeket] = I('ll) report you / you lot; kihajítalak (kihajítlak) = I('ll) chuck you (lot) out etc.
As someone who started seriously learning Hungarian long after Polish, I must say that Hungarian offers a foreigner, even a native German speaking US-born foreigner like me, many more challenges than any Slavic language I've studied. My textbook, "Hunagrian: An Essential Grammar" by Carol Rounds (Routledge Press 200?) is unusual in that it was written by an American, who didn't even study the language until her adulthood!!
Indeed, Hungarian has even the Finns beat on the number of actually used cases. About the Celtic language, I'm honestly not sure. Basque though, is a close runner up, as competitions go-:)
Hungarian also has something which even Polish doesn't have: definite vs, indefinite verb forms, e.g. 'En tudok magyarul.' = I know Hungarian. vs. 'Tudom, vagy neked a konyv van.' = I know that you have the book (...more or less, aplogies for my bad Hungarian. Still struggling with the word order. Not as easy for me as German). The verb 'tudni' (to know) takes either a "k" or an "m" in the first person, depending upon whether the statement is concrete or more abstract.
Different, huh??
Indeed, Hungarian has even the Finns beat on the number of actually used cases. About the Celtic language, I'm honestly not sure. Basque though, is a close runner up, as competitions go-:)
Hungarian also has something which even Polish doesn't have: definite vs, indefinite verb forms, e.g. 'En tudok magyarul.' = I know Hungarian. vs. 'Tudom, vagy neked a konyv van.' = I know that you have the book (...more or less, aplogies for my bad Hungarian. Still struggling with the word order. Not as easy for me as German). The verb 'tudni' (to know) takes either a "k" or an "m" in the first person, depending upon whether the statement is concrete or more abstract.
Different, huh??
The basic word order has much in common with Polish. Or at least it's much harder for an English speaker to get used to it. :)
Sorry Bondi, am not quite with you on that one. You're saying Hungarian or Polish word order is harder for English speakers?
Can’t really think of an example at the moment, but the English in my class sometimes have problems to understand how to build up a Polish phrase. Starting with “to be”. E.g. you don't have to say “ja jestem” unless you want to emphasise it in the context.
As a native speaker of English, I'd say Hungarian word order is harder than Polish.
Polish word order follows two basic ideas (it's more complicated than that but I'm simplifying on purpose to make a point)
1. Subject Verb Object (if all are present and the whole sentence is new information)
2. Older information - Newer information (you start with older information and end with newer information.
And crucially departures from idiomatic word order are no big deal.
Hungarian is just more complicated in terms of word order.
1. Hungarian is mixed in terms of basic word order, sometimes it's Subject Object Verb and other times Subject Verb Object.
2. Hungarian also uses the older information followed by new information pattern but this is less important than
3. focus (non-existant in Polish) the element just before the personal verb has a special importance and receives the main stress and depending on what's focused this can cause ripples throughout the rest of the sentence.
Departures from idiomatic word order are a bigger deal than in Polish IME.
On the other hand case suffixes are a major pain in Polish (gender, number, kind of stem blah, blah blah) while they're super easy in Hungarian.
Polish word order follows two basic ideas (it's more complicated than that but I'm simplifying on purpose to make a point)
1. Subject Verb Object (if all are present and the whole sentence is new information)
2. Older information - Newer information (you start with older information and end with newer information.
And crucially departures from idiomatic word order are no big deal.
Hungarian is just more complicated in terms of word order.
1. Hungarian is mixed in terms of basic word order, sometimes it's Subject Object Verb and other times Subject Verb Object.
2. Hungarian also uses the older information followed by new information pattern but this is less important than
3. focus (non-existant in Polish) the element just before the personal verb has a special importance and receives the main stress and depending on what's focused this can cause ripples throughout the rest of the sentence.
Departures from idiomatic word order are a bigger deal than in Polish IME.
On the other hand case suffixes are a major pain in Polish (gender, number, kind of stem blah, blah blah) while they're super easy in Hungarian.
Oh, I agree here with Mafketis 100%! I mean, at least there are some common markers in Polish that appear to correspond with other Indo-European tongues; prepositions, detached pronouns, frequency of related Latin/European-based vocabulary, similar sentence structure to English, as well as to German.
With Hungarian? I was out on a limb at first; enclitic pronouns, those definite vs. indefinite conjugations I mentioned earlier, and of course, the complete non-Indo-European word base that makes almost the entire language sound all but incomprehensible! And then, those numerous cases (roundabout 32 at last count) vs. a mere seven in Polish, four in German......, the 'defective' verb "to have", plus the various double meanings of everyday nouns, e.g. 'ido' with two dots above the 'o' meaning both 'time' and 'weather' (rather like Spanish and French here), depending on the context, or 'eg' with an acute accent over the 'e' meaning 'sky', 'firmament' (heavens) or 'fire' etc...
Not a language for the faint hearted--:)
With Hungarian? I was out on a limb at first; enclitic pronouns, those definite vs. indefinite conjugations I mentioned earlier, and of course, the complete non-Indo-European word base that makes almost the entire language sound all but incomprehensible! And then, those numerous cases (roundabout 32 at last count) vs. a mere seven in Polish, four in German......, the 'defective' verb "to have", plus the various double meanings of everyday nouns, e.g. 'ido' with two dots above the 'o' meaning both 'time' and 'weather' (rather like Spanish and French here), depending on the context, or 'eg' with an acute accent over the 'e' meaning 'sky', 'firmament' (heavens) or 'fire' etc...
Not a language for the faint hearted--:)
Isslam Gamaldin - | 1
5 Nov 2008 / #39
Arabic=بولندا
Not a language for the faint hearted--:)
You can say that again, I know a handful of words and found it more difficult than Polish when trying to learn.
'.......and found it more difficult than Polish......'
...precisely because for native English speakers like ourselves, there are precious few "anchors" to grasp onto for support, i.e. EVERYTHING looks foreign!! In addition, Polish has an intonational rhythm, in Hungarian, the accent is always on the first syllable, even in many of their polysyllabic words and place names, and there is also even less vocalic recduction than in Polish, so that every single letter must be pronounced separately!! Try to imagine the first Dracula Hollywood film star Bela Lugosi "GUUD EEVENINK, AI AHMM DRRRAKUULAA, AI BEED YUU VALLKAWMM.....", with none of the slurring, schwa-like effects of, say, English or German,
Furthermore, if you literally translate the Hungarian meanings od certain key phrases literally, the impression is often more foreign-sounding than in Polish--:)
...precisely because for native English speakers like ourselves, there are precious few "anchors" to grasp onto for support, i.e. EVERYTHING looks foreign!! In addition, Polish has an intonational rhythm, in Hungarian, the accent is always on the first syllable, even in many of their polysyllabic words and place names, and there is also even less vocalic recduction than in Polish, so that every single letter must be pronounced separately!! Try to imagine the first Dracula Hollywood film star Bela Lugosi "GUUD EEVENINK, AI AHMM DRRRAKUULAA, AI BEED YUU VALLKAWMM.....", with none of the slurring, schwa-like effects of, say, English or German,
Furthermore, if you literally translate the Hungarian meanings od certain key phrases literally, the impression is often more foreign-sounding than in Polish--:)
Ania_Poland - | 1
5 Nov 2008 / #42
Polan in Chinese
hahaha o lol xD very funny xD
Marek:
hmm... I disagree in some sense as we have some common/mutual words on a smaller international scale. (The first one being the notorious K word, of course, I don't have to list that. :)
bób = bab
byk = bika
cegła = tégla
cel = cél
ćwikła = cékla
cud = csoda (csuda in archaic/dialectical)
drut = drót (drút in arch./dial.)
dziecko = gyerek
gołąb = galamb
kaczka = kacsa
kapelusz = kalap
klucz = kulcs
kreda = kréta
łańcuch = lánc
mak = mák
niedźwiedź = medve
piekło = pokol
sąsiad = szomszéd
siekiera = szekerce
szabla = szablya
taniec = tánc
teczka = táska
wiadro = vödör/veder
wnok = unoka
To name just a few. Not to mention the most inter-intelligible ones like czapka/sapka, delfin/delfin, pingwin/pingvin, czekolada/csokoládé, kukurydza/kukorica, papryka/paprika, kapusta/káposzta, sałata/saláta, malina/málna, kuchnia/konyha etc. etc. (I'm getting hungry now.)
hmm... I disagree in some sense as we have some common/mutual words on a smaller international scale. (The first one being the notorious K word, of course, I don't have to list that. :)
bób = bab
byk = bika
cegła = tégla
cel = cél
ćwikła = cékla
cud = csoda (csuda in archaic/dialectical)
drut = drót (drút in arch./dial.)
dziecko = gyerek
gołąb = galamb
kaczka = kacsa
kapelusz = kalap
klucz = kulcs
kreda = kréta
łańcuch = lánc
mak = mák
niedźwiedź = medve
piekło = pokol
sąsiad = szomszéd
siekiera = szekerce
szabla = szablya
taniec = tánc
teczka = táska
wiadro = vödör/veder
wnok = unoka
To name just a few. Not to mention the most inter-intelligible ones like czapka/sapka, delfin/delfin, pingwin/pingvin, czekolada/csokoládé, kukurydza/kukorica, papryka/paprika, kapusta/káposzta, sałata/saláta, malina/málna, kuchnia/konyha etc. etc. (I'm getting hungry now.)
Bondi,
I trust I didn't convey the opposite! Certainly, the degree of 'cross-pollination' between Hungarian and Slavic languages, such as Polish, to the extent indicated in your nicely informative post cannot be denied.
I still maintain however, as a Westerner who learned Polish first at around the start of my thirties, and Hungarian not all that long after, that I found Hungarian a far more challenging language, despite my bilingual upbringing; German wasn't of much use!
Perhaps a native speaker of either Polish or Hungarian, experienced at teaching it to foreigners, might gently disagree--:)
I trust I didn't convey the opposite! Certainly, the degree of 'cross-pollination' between Hungarian and Slavic languages, such as Polish, to the extent indicated in your nicely informative post cannot be denied.
I still maintain however, as a Westerner who learned Polish first at around the start of my thirties, and Hungarian not all that long after, that I found Hungarian a far more challenging language, despite my bilingual upbringing; German wasn't of much use!
Perhaps a native speaker of either Polish or Hungarian, experienced at teaching it to foreigners, might gently disagree--:)
still maintain however, as a Westerner
Oj Marku Marku z jednej strony jesteś rasistą z drugiej wierzysz w asymilacje poprzez kulture (w swoim przypadku). Zdecyduj się Mareczku. Bo jeśli wierzysz w rasy to w USA też prędzej czy później skączy się jak zawsze ... to są ludzie głównie z europy, zarówno na wschodzie jaki i na zachodzie europy wystąpiły te same negatywne zjawiska w przeszłości.
Tak, tak zapewno! Ale może być nie zrozmialeś moją przeszła wiadomość. To NIE było moje zdanie!!
Rzeczywiście pobieżnie to przeczytałem, lecz mój przekaz jest wciąż aktualny.
Co do twojego polskiego:
Pozdrawiam kolege!
Co do twojego polskiego:
Tak, tak zapewno(e)! Ale może być (lepiej: być może) nie zrozmialeś moją(ej) (GENITIV!) przeszła (poprzedniej/ostatniej) wiadomośći. To NIE było moje zdanie!!
Pozdrawiam kolege!
Również, kolege!
M:
M:
kucsifri
25 Jun 2010 / #49
Yes, Hungarian is fascinating. I am Hungarian, so I know what you are talking about :).
I am happy you want to learn it :).
I am happy you want to learn it :).
Lyzko
25 Jun 2010 / #50
Beszelek csak kicsit magyarul, de Magyarorszagon voltam, Budapesten es Debrecenben. Sajnos azak varosokot nem jol ismerem:-)
Tylko trochę mówię po węgiersku, ale już byłem na Węgrzech, w Budapestcie i Debrecenie. Niestety nie dobrze znam tych miast.
I speak only a bit of Hungarian, but was in Hungary, in Budapest as well as Debrecen. Unfortunately, neither of these cities can I say I know any too well!
Hungarian is an extremely beautiful language, and, like Albanian, Russian, Lithuanian, Finnish or German, also extremely complicated, particularly for the unanointed.
I scarcely consider myself one of the latter, probably never will be either.
Anyhow, kucsfri, just wish me 'Mindet jot!'
-:)
"MindeNt jot!", sajnolom LOL
Lengyelul = Powodzenia!
For all non-Polish speakers: Good luck!
Tylko trochę mówię po węgiersku, ale już byłem na Węgrzech, w Budapestcie i Debrecenie. Niestety nie dobrze znam tych miast.
I speak only a bit of Hungarian, but was in Hungary, in Budapest as well as Debrecen. Unfortunately, neither of these cities can I say I know any too well!
Hungarian is an extremely beautiful language, and, like Albanian, Russian, Lithuanian, Finnish or German, also extremely complicated, particularly for the unanointed.
I scarcely consider myself one of the latter, probably never will be either.
Anyhow, kucsfri, just wish me 'Mindet jot!'
-:)
"MindeNt jot!", sajnolom LOL
Lengyelul = Powodzenia!
For all non-Polish speakers: Good luck!
Lorianne
21 Feb 2011 / #51
No the Hungarian name for Poland in that language is not at all derogatory. It comes from a name of a cultural group from before the year 1000 AD which they believe led to the current culture on the area now called Poland.
Yes, Hungarian name lengyel comes from "Lędzianie".
:-)
:-)
skysoulmate 13 | 1250
3 Mar 2011 / #53
Poland, Pole, Polish -> Pōlani (Hawaiian)
NomadatNet 1 | 457
3 Mar 2011 / #54
In Turkish: Lehistan till 20th c and Polonya after then.
Hungarian, Uralic language, is agglutinative, like other Ural-Altaic languages (Turkish, Georgian, Japan, Korean, etc.) Also, some minor languages like Basque lang. Btw: Hungary: Macaristan in Turkish.
Not sure what you meant by languages aren't agglutinative.
Knowing Turkish and English (Indo-Euro lang), I see this agglutinativeness is main difference beside positions of subject-verb-object-etc. Give me any word in Turkish, I can generate a very long sentence in one word. For fun, see:
Polonya - Poland
Polonyali - From Poland
Polonyalilas - Be from Poland
Polonyalilastırma - To make (she/he) be from Poland
Polonyalilastiramadik - We couldn't have made (she/he) be from Poland
Polanyalilastiramadiklarimiz - Those we couldn't have made (she/he) be from Poland
Polanyalilastiramadiklarimizdan - One(s) of those we couldn't make (she/he) be from Poland
Polanyalilastiramadiklarimizdanmisin? - Are you one of those we couldn't make (she/he) be from Poland?
Polanyalilastiramadiklarimizdanmisiniz? - Are you (plural) ones of those we couldn't make (she/he) be from Poland?
Language of Poles, Polish in Turkish: Lehce. (still same before and after 20th c.) Btw, this word "lehce" also means "dialect" in Turkish and used for different dialects in Turkic languages. For example, Azeri lehce, Turkmen lehce, Kirgiz lehce, etc.
Technically languages aren't aglutinative, only particular structures are.
Hungarian, Uralic language, is agglutinative, like other Ural-Altaic languages (Turkish, Georgian, Japan, Korean, etc.) Also, some minor languages like Basque lang. Btw: Hungary: Macaristan in Turkish.
Not sure what you meant by languages aren't agglutinative.
Knowing Turkish and English (Indo-Euro lang), I see this agglutinativeness is main difference beside positions of subject-verb-object-etc. Give me any word in Turkish, I can generate a very long sentence in one word. For fun, see:
Polonya - Poland
Polonyali - From Poland
Polonyalilas - Be from Poland
Polonyalilastırma - To make (she/he) be from Poland
Polonyalilastiramadik - We couldn't have made (she/he) be from Poland
Polanyalilastiramadiklarimiz - Those we couldn't have made (she/he) be from Poland
Polanyalilastiramadiklarimizdan - One(s) of those we couldn't make (she/he) be from Poland
Polanyalilastiramadiklarimizdanmisin? - Are you one of those we couldn't make (she/he) be from Poland?
Polanyalilastiramadiklarimizdanmisiniz? - Are you (plural) ones of those we couldn't make (she/he) be from Poland?
Language of Poles, Polish in Turkish: Lehce. (still same before and after 20th c.) Btw, this word "lehce" also means "dialect" in Turkish and used for different dialects in Turkic languages. For example, Azeri lehce, Turkmen lehce, Kirgiz lehce, etc.
Turkish is a lot of fun! Hungarian is really similar in some ways.
"Ellengyeltelenítettétek" - this word means that you (pl.) made something non-Polish.
Not a frequently used word, but correct ;)
"Ellengyeltelenítettétek" - this word means that you (pl.) made something non-Polish.
Not a frequently used word, but correct ;)
NomadatNet 1 | 457
4 Mar 2011 / #56
"Ellengyeltelenítettétek" - this word means that you (pl.) made something non-Polish.
Google couldn't translate it. Without knowing Hungarian, I tried.
I tried to find how it is derived (using google and guessing similarity to Turkish, old Turkic too.)
El (couldn't understand this. Is it an imported article like "the" from Latin or Arabic?)
lengyel (ok, this is Polish/similarity to Leh+li = from Poland)
telen (google translate it as incorrect - in hungarian, it is also "lie"?, "telen" is similar to "yalan/lie" in turkish)
tettétek (google translates: you did. "te/tet" must be "you/you", "sen/siz" in turkish. in general, ural-altaics: you= sen/ten/te, etc. and tettetek = (sen)ettin.)
Ps: Btw, having read this part in history of Poland on wiki,
Jadwiga, Hungarian princess/queen, was the youngest daughter of Louis I of Hungary and of Elizabeth of Bosnia. Jadwiga could claim descent from the House of Piast, the ancient native Polish dynasty on both her mother's and her father's side., one can claim that Poland was formed as a country first time by Hungarian dynasty with Slav Polan tribe.
Bzibzioh
4 Mar 2011 / #57
one can claim that Poland was formed as a country first time by Hungarian dynasty with Slav Polan tribe.
No, first Polish Kings dynasty was Piast. Jadwiga was from Andegawen dynasty but she left no children so that claim is false.
NomadatNet 1 | 457
4 Mar 2011 / #58
It is her claim of Jadwiga, isn't it: "Jadwiga could claim descent from the House of Piast"
Bzibzioh
4 Mar 2011 / #59
"Jadwiga could claim descent from the House of Piast"
That claim is OK but this one
one can claim that Poland was formed as a country first time by Hungarian dynasty with Slav Polan tribe.
is not
Google couldn't translate it. Without knowing Hungarian, I tried.
ellengyeltelenítettétek
quick and dirty analysis
el = from, out of, away
lengyel - Poland, Pole, Polish
telen - no, without
ít - causitive (makes sth be a certain way or makes someone do something)
ett - past tense
étek - you (plural) (it might be possible to separate out -é- as a separate morpheme, but I wouldn't)
Not sure what you meant by languages aren't agglutinative.
This just means that no human language uses only one kind of structure. "agglutinative language" is an abbreviation for "a language that uses agglutinative structures more than most languages do". But English and Polish also have some agglutinative kinds of structures and there are inflectional and isolating bits of Turkish as well.