I'd be damned if any run-of-the-mill CD-Rom course can be effective.
Ah I see now what you were referring to. Didn't realise you were referring specifically to computer based language learning programmes. I can't comment as to their effectiveness as I've never used one, but I don't see the harm if the OP is using them in conjunction with book based studies.
That's the kind of thing you need.
It is and you're right, but phoning a garage and being able to describe car problems and being able to understand the reply would require quite a high level of Polish language knowledge. The OP would have to get to grips with all the grammar etc before he could do that and he is just a beginner at it.
Yup! That's the problem alright! I suppose a phone call is tricky, it might be possible face to face. To be honest I really wouldn't worry about the grammar though. My own grammar is very ropey but people do seem to understand me all the same. I would say in the beginning vocabulary is more important. Knowing as many nouns, verbs and adjectives as possible will take you a long way, if you can string them together somehow. And of course pronunication, saying each sound clearly, particularly in Polish, and not running them together. That's essential. If you don't enunciate clearly that's when people may have a problem understanding you.
My own grammar is very ropey but people do seem to understand me all the same.
I think Polish to some extent is quite forgiving, I cringe at past conversations I had a few years ago with my Polish lodger. For someone starting from scratch though who wants to learn the language, there's no getting away from learning the grammar properly or communication won't move past pidgin Polish stage. Vocabulary is equally important though. The OP has many many hours of learning ahead of him to communicate effectively in Polish.
If you don't enunciate clearly that's when people may have a problem understanding you.
Yep! How you speak is just as important as what's being said.
Absolutely. The arsenal of grammar required to carry on an even half-way literate conversation in English pales in comparison before Polish:-)
At a certain point as well, try watching more or less recent Polish films with POLISH subtitles, rather than English or even zero captions! By seeing what the speakers/actors are saying will increase your understanding of structure along with vocab. This will also reduce the annoying and sometimes detrimental need to translate everything being said. Watching with target language closed captions helps to eliminate source language intereference.
A relatively recent (if heavy) Polish movie I saw on netflicks is "Kret" (The Mole) about the deep rancor left behind in contemporary Poland by the aftershocks of Solidarność during the '80s. I watched with Polish subtitles on a friend's PC, then switched them off and was able to watch the rest of the film. Occasionally, I even jotted down some key words which kept cropping up aka "zdrajca" (traitor), used often throughout the early part of the movie.
I prefer Wajda and Andrzejewski, however, they constitute "classic" Polish cinema, therefore not so useful in today's language with their outdated slang:-)
Older films can of course be enjoyable due to the aesthetic of a now arcane style of speech!
This poster used to listen to POLSAT daily when I still had cable. I'd watch the news in Polish without subtitles either, but now I could only watch it on a PC.
I agree to some extent, Chemikiem. Only, it's hard to put a time limit and learning or progress!
This remains the core problem with most foreign-language classes; the instructor sets unrealistic learning goals and all too often merely turns pages week by week, i.e. "Old business, that was last class, new business, we're on the simple past today.." etc. which is simply mind-numbing, not to mention, just plain ineffective:-)
Phone calls are always stressful for foreign language learners! I can still recall the first time I called an acquaintance of mine outside of Wrocław:-)
All the tapes, CDs, pattern drills etc. cannot truly prepare the novice for who will answer the phone on the other side! In normal speech, the other person typically doesn't concede to the perceived mistakes of the person calling.
In my case, my friend's parents (older people, hovering round about 60 or so and spoke zero English) were home and her father picked up with such a regional accent, I could barely understand him after a cursory "Dzień dobry!"!
Later learned he was a retired iron foundry worker who was barely literate in PolishLOL
As I gained more practice through persistence, it became as easy to speak on the phone as it would have been in German.
Phone call is always the worst, I remember my very first phone call in English, it didn't end up good.
I am always very reluctant to make or receive a phone-call in English while in Poland unless the other person is someone for whom English isn't the native language. This tends to change dramatically, however, when I am abroad and not necesarily in an English-speaking country. This is because, I'd guess, of the fact that being immersed totally in my own language hinders myself in some way when I am restricted to a "narrowed" channel of communication such as the telephone. But being abroad, say in France, loosens my link with Polish considerably (although temporarily) and as a result I do not feel "blocked" to talk in English with a native speaker of English elswhere in the world.
Many of my Polish students of English (in New York) would usually AVOID speaking, either on the phone or in person as well, with native New Yorkers with English as a mother tongue. Instead, they'd prefer chatting with French, Germans, native Hispanics, Japanese, anybody but an Anglophone:-)
Conversely, when I speak to Poles, either in a consulary function or even Greenpoint store owners etc., I only speak in Polish, not so much as practice for me, but because most honestly, bless their hearts, don't understand me if I speak to them in English!
Nowadays however, with caller I.D. and speaker phone, whenever my acquaintance or her husband calls for me on my landline, I can gently put them on speaker phone, remove the receiver from my ear for a moment, and fetch a dictionary if/when I really need it.
JuiJitsu - how long you think it would take in hours to be "fluent" in Polish?
That depends on your definition of fluent. I have studied Polish flashcards for more than (a combined) 87 hours and have spoken Polish in language exchanges for more than 118 hours over the last 18 months. I can hold my own in a conversation about pretty much anything. I'd guestimate than logging 150 hours of speaking Polish is enough for anyone to learn how to have conversations in the language.
Chemikiem - True, but the people they hire are naturally gifted at languages
Everyone is gifted at languages - that's why we all speak at least one. I personally don't believe that total immersion is the reason people learn languages. I have met many people who have lived in England for decades and cannot speak the language. Where I think the real learning comes from is necessity. The people who have lived in England without learning English haven't needed it. They have managed to use the language(s) that they already know to get by. When learning a language is necessary to live your life, you'll learn it.
Lyzko - Even with Rosetta, Berlitz, Pimsleur, to be frank, you're probably wasting your time!
Can only comment on Pimsleur. Spaced repetition was awesome. Learning how to say "I'm an American" and ask ladies out to a bar was not very useful considering I'm not American and the very fiery Polish woman by my side would KILL ME for even looking at another woman, let alone invite her to a bar!
Chemikiemthere's no getting away from learning the grammar properly or communication won't move past pidgin Polish stage.
I'm going to be controversial and politely disagree here. After reading from other learners to not start with the grammar, I avoided learning any rules and have picked up all of the grammar that I know from just paying attention. It's quite nice not having to do the mental arithmetic that other learners use to speak. Because I don't know any grammar rules, I never hesitate when I'm speaking.
When I was learning Polish, my wife thought I was nuts at first, labeling all the objects in our apartment "LAMPA", "ŚCIANA", "FOTEL", "SZAFA" etc. on index cards, but in the end, she grew to see the wisdom in my method (scarcely original, I can assure you!). Polish colleagues would correct me when we were conversing, eventually, I learned to correct myself and usually got it right...the second or third timeLOL
I reiterate, all the stuff I've posted applies to me alone, the way I learn a foreign language. This isn't meant as gospel for everyone:-)
I avoided learning any rules and have picked up all of the grammar that I know from just paying attention.
Yes, you do find that with many of the commonly used constructions it starts to sink in after a while when you hear them often enough.
Where I think the real learning comes from is necessity.
Agree. I learned a great deal of vocabulary that way. When I knew I had to go somewhere or do an unfamiliar thing, I would think about the vocab I was likely to need and then I'd write it down, just make a few notes in a little notebook and take that with me for back up in case I dried up! I used to go through the phrases on the way to my destination and then say them from memory but if I got stuck I had my notebook on standby. I'm talking more about business stuff than social, although certainly, in the early days, I learned a few stock phrases so that I could make a nice comment about the host's cooking or what a lovely garden or something along those lines.
Mimicking the speech patterns of native speakers is especially important. In addition, watching for the typical transference errors in English is often a reasonably safe clue as to how that person structures thought in their mother tongue:-)
I personally don't believe that total immersion is the reason people learn languages
Neither do I. I said it was probably the easiest way to learn a language.
Where I think the real learning comes from is necessity.
Agreed.
I avoided learning any rules and have picked up all of the grammar that I know from just paying attention.
I am presuming then that you live in Poland or you mix with Polish people on a very regular basis. My statements were made with the OP in mind, who doesn't live in Poland and doesn't get to speak Polish with Poles that often. Someone in that position is not going to pick up grammar by paying attention because he doesn't hear the language being spoken.
I do understand what you mean though. I initially picked up the language because I spent a great deal of time with Polish people, long before I ever picked up a book on grammar. I learned a great deal from listening, knowing nothing about the case system at all.
I said it was probably the easiest way to learn a language.
I meant to add that this is if the person has the desire to learn of course, because I also know people who have been resident in the UK for years and cannot speak English.
In order to communicate on a basic level you would need to study from 300 to 500 hours. I mean a effective learn process would take that long. I'm not talking about attending a class. Assuming that your are an Anglophone.
I'd even go further by saying that at least as many, if not much, much more:-) While everybody learns differently, there's usually no substitute for being in the native environment where the target language is spoken aka the country itself!
Tough putting arbitrary time limits on language learning, as this type of learning differs sharply from, say, accounting, AC-repair and the like, the latter being primarily mechanical skills which can, indeed often must, be learned by rote memorization of certain fixed formulae.
Language doesn't function the same, one of the reasons why the yardstick remains different for Poles (or other Europeans) being forced to learn years of English in state-sponsored schools where the instructor typically is a Polish-native speaker, as opposed to Anglophones who VOLUNTARILY are learning Polish, for example, and insist on a target-language native speaker, NOT a Brit or an American, except for an honest to gosh bilingual speaker.
Ah, and there's the rub! To communicate on a BASIC level need not necessarily equate to communicating on a culturally, idiomatically NATURAL or fluent level:-)
For the latter, more hours would well be needed than there are in a day (..perhaps, an average lifetime)LOL
Realistically, your estimate might work at a tourist or visitor level, but not too much more. Depends on your expectations! Getting a room at a hotel, maybe even engaging in "light" conversation over a beer, going sightseeing etc. is a far different kettle of fish from being able to attend one of the better Polish universities, hear a target-language lecture on Mickiewicz, enjoy a Polish classic film without subtitles etc.. and be able to discuss it cogently IN POLISH among educated native speakers at a high class cocktail party!
Far too often, we all tend to confuse ease in communication with natural fluency, pleasing to a native speaker of the language we're studying. Many Poles have to be sure studied English at university many years, have gone on study trips to the States or the UK and believe themselves to be totally aka far exceeding merely "adequate" in English.
Except for only one person I've known for years, the others failed, many miserably, arrogantly insisting that "minor mistakes" are unimportant.....
If a Pole were to ask me for an honest assessment of my Polish skills, I'd respond that I'm an advanced "beginner" in the language, yet am always open to learn more, and I'd be right.
among educated native speakers at a high class cocktail party!
There are plenty of people who couldn't do that in their own native language let alone in a foreign one! A fact that never seems to strike people when learning a second language is that if you don't have a wide vocabulary and aren't especially erudite in your own tongue, you're unlikely to achieve stunning, idiomatic and richly expressive fluency in a second language. So I think there's a point at which people should be satisified with what they've achieved. As you say, it's about expectations. One person's basic is another person's advanced.
With the invention of mobile texting many people have lost the ability to converse with others using full sentences and correct grammar. They have no ability to hold a thoroughly researched 'discussion' as their knowledge of many subjects is extremely limited due to their lack of education. Their answer to everything is to insult their opponent and use vulgar language.
It takes years and years of learning to learn Polish up to the standard required for say University entrance exams. f you want to go into a shop and buy items, your basis Polish may suffice. If you want to go to a Government department and arrange something you need an extensive vocabulary. If you want to discuss intricate financial details or IT problems at work - you need a good standard of the language (whether Polish or English or other).
How about my example in reverse, whereby all too many Poles are "satisfied" with their level of English, operating though under the mistaken belief that good enough in English is good enough in general, sometimes deriding foreigners for trying to learn Polish as a language they could never possible know on an educated aka "intelligible" plane. Outsiders' mistakes in Polish are [un-]forgivably amusing, whereas Poles' errors in English don't really count because English is the (international) language meant to be mangled etc..-))
Rather like the pot calling the kettle black, don't you think? Guess I'm simply sick and tired of the double standard mentality.
Rather like the pot calling the kettle black, don't you think? Guess I'm simply sick and tired of the double standard mentality.
I usually try not to comment on your general posts about language but here I have no choice... You are right about that pot/kettle thing. And you are guilty of it as well, even more than other ppl here. Multiple times you commented how members here and Poles in general can't speak English on high enough level while you yourself usually cannot write one sentence in Polish without making a mistake. And you have the cheek to say you translate Polish!
I appreciate your effort to learn Polish and I wouldn't want to discourage you just point out that sometimes you should look in the mirror.
In the end, most likely my Polish alternates easily between grammatically impaired, though understandable, and grammatically faultless. Probably, as with you in English, it depends on the time of day.
Appreciate the feedback:-) "Ćwiczenie czyni mistrza", as I never tire of saying.
