"który" - relative pronoun question

Today I was interested to read the article Kariera w Polce in the Polish Express newspaper but this sentence made me wonder ......

Zaskakujące jest przede wszystkim i to, że nawet ci, którym wiedzie się w ojczyźnie całkiem nieźle - też myślą o emigracji.

from: polishexpress.polacy.co.uk/art,kariera_w_polsce_8211_nie_dziekuje,4588 .html

I want to know why the relative pronoun, którym, is dative singular and not plural którymi. I get the impression that wiedzie się is an impersonal verb

wiedzie mi sie dobrze and I suppose wiedzie im sie dobrze so why not którymi ? After all, ci - to which którym refers is plural and so is myślą.

Who can explain this to me ?

Alan Crease

Którym refers to wiedzie się and that's about it :) There is gender agreement and case agreement :P

In Polish, you have to look at what refers to what. It could be których and którze, all depending on what comes after.

case agreement is not needed in relative clauses, so we can ignore that.

The issue here is number agreement. The antecedent of ktorym is the plural demonstrative pronoun ci.

wiedzie sie is always 3rd person singular and it needs a dative object mi, jej, nam, wam, im.

I appreciate your response but it does not answer the my question.

I think you are missing the fact that którym is plural as well as singular. The whole clause refers to ci and that's important. Ci, którymi here just isn't grammatically sound.

You're getting your cases mixed up,

the instrumental

singular sing masc = którym
plural (all genders) = którymi

dative sing masc = któremu
dative plural (all genders) którym

You'll note that the dative plural adjective ending looks just like the instrumental singular adjective ending (for masc and neuter nouns).


let's try an idiomatic translation

Even those, for whom things are going well, are also thinking of emigrating.

here wiedzie się (komuś) means something like 'go well for someone' but Polish uses the dative case instead of a preoposition in this particular context.

Clear?

If it makes you feel better, this kind of confusion is not anything to worry about, it takes time and a _lot_ of exposure to automatically recognize (and keep straight!) the various endings.

Not even a thank you for the effort! Alan, why do the the Germans say 'warum' instead of why? The French, pourquoi. The Poles, dlaczego. The Japanese, nande/naze etc etc. It's just different! It's hard to explain why the Poles use the dative here but którym is plural too. They don't do it to fox people. In English, the same. There are certain combinations that just are, often without any rhyme nor reason :)

No, indeed - thank you. You are right. I re-checked the pronoun tables.

It is dative plural and that is exactly what I would have predicted.

I have been brought up on the grammar tables in English books for Latin, German and Greek and the traditional order of cases is different to continental grammar books - that is my only excuse ! The Dative comes lower down the list - a quick glance at my Polish grammar confused me.

Apologies for wasting your time.

Thanks - it was due to my mixing cases.

I knew it should be dative plural, but I must have looked it up twice in my grammar books and overlooked that fact that któremu is singular and którym is plural.

Seanus re the warum question

The other language you quote have preposition + determiner. German - and I have not thought about it before - seems to have the preposition at the end. 'Um' can mean 'concerning ..' So 'um was' (concerning what) becomes warum. They also use wozu to translate 'why' in some cercumstances. Again zu, the preposition comes at the end.

A better etymologist than me might have a better answer.

If someone asks 'warum' and you don't know the answer you can reply 'darum'.

Thanks, Alan. My general knowledge of grammar and cases is sound as I'm an experienced teacher. However, my wife is far more proficient in the nitty gritty as she studied Philology. It gave her a whole new way of viewing things that us native speakers barely give a superficial sweep to.

This is why 'a native speaker' doesn't always mean 'a good teacher'.

E.g. grammar, rules and structures are usually better explained by people who learned the language as adults.

True, SwP. I've amassed 8 years worth of teaching exp with a postgrad education lying behind that. I am CELTA certified too (insane ;) ;0). However, I feel like an amateur sometimes when my wife delves into the deeper recesses of morphemes and the like. She is far more aware of the stems of words and how language evolved than I am. I don't really need to know such things but they are useful nonetheless.

Merged: The pronoun game, can you use it in the Polish language? Examples?

I was wondering is it possible to use the the pronoun game in the Polish language?

Would you be able to give examples?

Thanks.

What is the pronoun game? Can you give examples?