[ jak wiele razy / ile razy ]

Hello,

I am currently learning Polish and I'm working through Michel Thomas' courses and one of the sentences that the instructor asks to translate from English is : "How many times have you read these newspapers ?" (talking to a man informally)

My instinctive response was : "Jak wiele razy czytałeś te gazety" whereas the students and instructor answered with "ile razy" instead. I was wondering if using "Jak wiele razy" would also be correct in this case.

Any clarification of the matter would be appreciated.

They're both correct but...

"Jak wiele razy" implies that he reads these papers a lot. It sounds like a reproach. "Ile razy" is neutral in this matter.

Thanks a lot of the insight. It's much appreciated :)

"Ile"/"Illu" is "How much/How many

Polish sometimes doesn't make the identical distinction as we do in English between singular vs. plural. Only the endings as well as the context will normally indicate such, e.g. "Ile to kosztuje? = How MUCH does it cost? vs. Ilu studentów jest w klasie? = How MANY students are there in [the] class? For the latter, Polish typically uses the singular form "jest" instead of "są", even though "studentS" is clearly a plural concept in English:-0

Wlodzimierz - thanks for pointing that out, if I were asked to translated that sentence directly from English I would have used są instead of jest.

This makes me wonder if this is something of an exceptional rule particularly linked to "Ile/Ilu" (How many), because in French an impersonal verb "Il y a" or " y a-t-il" (interrogative form) is used after Combien where plural conjugation gets disregarded.

Similar, but naturally not exactly parallel. Polish uses either "Ile" vs."Ilu" in order to distinguish between "much" and "many", whereas in French "Combien", Spanish "Quanto(s)" etc., the form of the construction never changes:-)

Quantities in Polish represent the infamous "counting quirks" of the language which are RARELY a straightforward affair! Often, their application can be hair-raisingly perplexing to the foreignerLOL

Thanks once more, it's always useful to make some analogies even if they're not exactly synonymous. I'll try to study meticulously those little subtleties once I'm done with Michel Thomas' course which I'm using as a building-block for learning Polish before moving on to the intricacies of the language's grammar.

Doubtless Michel Thomas is giving but the bare bone basics, much as Pimsleur, Berlitz or Rosetta Stone would.
Unlike Spanish, French or Italian, Polish is a language on which one really must keep one's mind in the beginning and well on up through intermediate as well:-) There are few shortcuts or mnemonics as there are for English, damned near zero clear-cut explanations as in German.

Polish, like Icelandic, must be learned one structure, indeed practically one word, at a time!

"Ile" vs. "ilu" does not distinguish between "much" and "many". It does distinguish between the "męskoosobowy" gender and the other one which is not.

Ile [pieniędzy] to kosztuje? [ile = how much]
Ile kobiet wzięło udział w święcie? [ile = how many]
Ile słoni jest w zoo? [ile = how many]
Ile wody znajduje się w szklance? [ile = how much]
but ...
Ilu mężczyzn zginęło w walce? [męskoosobowy]
Ilu chłopców chodzi to tego przedszkola? [męskoosobowy]
compare...
Ilu studentów zdało egzamin? [how many --> męskoosobowy]
Ile studentek zdało egzamin? [how many --> niemęskoosobowy]

This is then the reason why Poles typically make the mistake in English of saying "There are too much (rather than "many") students." etc..

Your point is of course completely well taken, Ziemowit!

My point however was not that "Ile" vs. "Ilu" have nothing to do "mięsko -vs. mięskonieosobowy", but rather with the concept of singular vs. plural in itself which varies sufficiently between most Slavic and, say, Germanic as well as many Romance languages as well:-)

I thought your concept refered to the countable vs. uncountable nouns since you said about distinguishing between "much" and "many". But if not, then the Polish question particle "ile?" is exactly the same as the French "combien?" allowing for this little and only exception for the męskoosobowy gender taking the form of "ilu?" When you ask "ile?", you may get an answer that refers to the singular.

- Ile róż rośnie w twoim ogrodzie? [Combien de roses y a-t-il dans ton jardin?]
- Rośnie jedna! [Il y en a une!]

... or to the plural:
- Rośnie ich kilka. [Il y en a plusieurs.]

An interesting riposte, Ziemowit!