Polish Grammar quiz/puzzles:

Grammar is a puzzle a lot of the time:

If you solve this one please post your own grammar puzzle:

Is "torba z uchami" correct? If not why not?

this is actually 'torba z rączkami' so I guess it's incorrect :)

I can't post liks but try to find in wikisłownik entry ucho - there's everything explained :)

Google knows about both versions, although the one "z rączkami" is statistically more popular. But do not despair; there are also "torby z uchwytami", "z szelkami" and even "z ramiączkami". Check the corresponding Google images of various bags.

ok catsoldier I've found a grammar puzzle for you, I hope it's not too difficult :)
'Jan obszedł jezioro. Jezioro zostało [...] przez Jana'
what would you put into brackets?

Thanks Emiwis, but I don't have a clue what to say in Polish. Jan went around the lake. The lake got circled by Jan.

That's the thing, 'obejść' is intransitive verb so you can not create passive voice for it :)

And that's interesting really. Why should 'obejśc' be an intransitive verb once it needs a direct object, something which you yourself have demonstrated in your example: Jan obszedł (verb) jezioro (direct object / dopełnienie bliższe) ?

Ziemowit


I agree. Transitive is as transitive does: it takes a direct object so it is transitive. No amount of irregularity in the verb itself can change that.

However, not all transitive verbs in Polish form passive participles, for example
mieć and woleć, and obejść falls into this category. What is weird is that, as far as I can tell (maybe Emiwis could confirm)
obchodzony, from the imperfective form, seems to exist. Another weirdness is that unikać, uniknąć, to avoid, which take the genitive, and are therefore
intransitive, form the passive participles unikany, uniknięty. See Swan, p. 302: polish.slavic.pitt.edu/grammar.pdf

This puzzle seems to be a source of fun for junior high school students who cherish catching their teachers off guard. It is also a perennial bore for various internet user groups, discussing subtle aspects of "polska język to być trudna język". Language authorities, such as prof. Jerzy Bralczyk or prof. Mirosław Bońko, PWN are being asked about it at least once a month.

The general consensus is that the verb "obejść", perfective aspect, is irregular since it does not form a passive participle. The advice is to substitute this verb by another one - such as "okrążać" to form a passive voice, as in "jezioro zostało okrążone". This is exactly what catsoldier did in his English example.

It is perhaps worth pointing out that the verb "obchodzić", imperfective aspect, is regular and forms passive participle - as in "to jezioro jest zwykle obchodzone lewą stroną", or metaphorically as in "to święto jest obchodzone wiosną".

However Prof. Bralczyk points out that there are ancient forms that can be used in lieu of passive participle for "obejść" - as used by H. Sienkiewicz in the expression "nieobeszłe lasy", so he suggests that theoretically "obeszłe" could be used as a complementary form (although quite weird) to "nieobeszłe". Quick Google search reveals that the form "nieobeszłe" (although not "obeszłe") was used by several poets:

Jan Kochanowski (Pieśni. Księgi wtóre. Pieśń XXV, verse 3): "Tyś fundament założył nieobeszłej ziemi / I przykryłeś jej nagość zioły rozlicznemi."

K.I. Gałczyński, Noctes Aninenses, Noc umiera: "nieobeszła otwarła się głębia / dla dywanów i dla poduszek."

Cz. Miłosz, Miasto: "Żyć jeszcze raz, na nieobeszłej ziemi"

To sum up the discussion shortly: the following equation: "the transitive verb creates the passive voice for itself" is not true for all Polish verbs, but it's true for the majority of them

Merged:

Short Quiz.

Short quiz from Onet that will check your grammar. Good luck!
m.onet.pl/styl-zycia/facet,kgp31v

Thanks for posting that. If you find anymore please post them here :-)

The test above is too difficult for foreigners. It may discourage many from learning Polish.
Or... perhaps it's just me - I'm native and I was embarrassed by this - and I always thought that my Polish is quite good... Is it because that I became oversaturated with a colloquial, often wrong language? It's just my excuse ;)

I disagree, I got 2 wrong.


For new learners it would be too difficult, but members here are at all different stages of learning, so it's good for those who are not complete novices.

Brief comment here in the form of a question. Isn't it true that standard contemporary Polish tends to use the passive far less frequently than the active? Example: "Jan zgubił portefel." rather than "Portefel był zgubiony od Jana."

Secondly, the verb "obejść" vs. "obchodzić" continues to confuse me, both in usage as well as in translation. Does it mean "to go across" or "to go around"? Or does it also depend on the context?

A fascinating thread this!

Heh. Good job. I got all correct but I am native. Kudos to you.


They both mean literally" to go around something" but the latter is commonly used for colloquial "to care about something" ie. Nic mnie to nie obchodzi means I don't care about that.

Also "obejść" is a one-time action while "obchodzić" is frequent and/or continous.

A helpful explanation, thank you:-)

I don't feel authorized to answer Polish grammar questions anymore, but maybe it can help a bit.
First, a correction:


You probably meant "Portfel został zgubiony przez Jana"
You're probably right with the claim, that the passive form is not used commonly. At least in everyday talk/writing.
Obejść/obchodzić in the meaning you have on mind means "to go around". But there are also another meanings of those words. Guess what ;)
Chemikem - congrats for your Polish knowledge.

EDIT: Too late...

Correct. Now see how changing places of a couple of words changes the meaning.

"Portfel przez Jana został zgubiony"

:)

:-) I see now where "od" was incorrect and I also finally understand the structure itself! Many thanks, gang.
"Przez" because the action was performed "through" aka "by means of Jan", and not really "from" him.

Here's another one. :)
dziennikzachodni.pl/quiz/pytanie/1,921,znasz_jezyk_polski_sprawdz_sie,n,q,t.html

Edit:
And another one.
wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/13,129662,5871,myslisz-ze-znasz-jezyk-polski-ten-quiz-udowodni-ci-ze-nie.html?i=0

Paweł obchodził Święto Wielkanocy w kościele. = Paul celebrated Easter in church.

Paweł obchodził pole. = Paul crossed [walked over or across] the field.

Both of the above substantially correct? Somehow can't imagine someone walking "around" a field, it wouldn't make either grammatical or even logical sense to me.

:-)

@Lyzko
Both are correct. The one with field is just "walking around something" you asked before but the one with the Easter has "obchodzić" used as "to celebrate".

You can also "Obchodzić urodziny" etc. Synonymous to "świętować".


And I thought the one with Easter should be more confusing since "walking around Easter" would be a little odd thing to say. :)

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!

A curious parallel here with German, but no matter, you confirmed what I already hoped I knew:-)

BTW.


Would be translated into "Paweł przeszedł przez pole" = (literally) "Paul walked through the field".

Guess I once again translated both too "literally" and above all, too hastilyLOL
Thanks.

Thanks guys, but I didn't do quite so well with the new tests ( thanks for posting btw )


4 wrong on this one.


6 wrong!! Plus the questions were so hideous, I had to get the dictionary out to fully make sense of some of them!
Anyone Polish tried them? Would appreciate knowing the level of difficulty of the tests.

I got 8 out of 10 in the gazeta wyborcza test - so yeah it was really difficult

More interesting than the tests are usually comments under the articles of Dziennik Zachodni. I have been a great fan of Dziennik Zachodni of Katowice for quite a long time now. The comments reflect the ever-going press "war" between some of the native Silesian and some people from other parts of Poland who settled there after the I or II world War. The Silesians call them 'gorols' and the Polish language is 'język polański' rather than 'polski' for them.

I like the comments since they are written in the somewhat amusing Silesian dialect which is fully comprehensible for a Pole from Mazovia, like myself. Here is one under the "Znasz język polski" quiz which is the first one and deliberately provoking towards the 'gorole' (mods, I don't translate it as there is no point to translate it into English, you just have to read it in Silesian):

Nie umia i nie chca godać po polsku bo z tom godka nie mom nic wspolnego, jak już to lepej po czesku albo po germańsku, a nie po gorolsku bo z wami gorole od wieków nasz ukochany Śląsk nie miał nic do czynienia, ale przez was został zgnojony i doprowadzony do ruiny ...

Take notice of the first person singular verb ending which is 'a' instead of 'ę' or 'em': nie umia (nie umiem); nie chca (nie chcę). The oldest Polish sentence ever written in history had also this characteristic -a ending, no wonder as it was recorded in the latinized form in Henryków (Heinrichau) in Lower Silesia in the year about 1270 :

"Day ut ia pobrusa, a ti poziwai" / Daj ać ja pobruszę, a ty poczywaj.



Bogwali uxor stabat, ad molam molendo. Cui vir suus idem Bogwalus, compassus dixit: Sine, ut ego etiam molam. Hoc est in polonico: Day, ut ia pobrusa, a ti poziwai.