The Future of Polish Language

Of course, but in general my experience is that a Dutch speaker who speaks "good English" will usually have a better vocabulary & pronunciation/accent than most other Europeans - except for maybe the Swedish.

You're right in the sense that when a Dutch DOES really know English well, it's truly effortless and even accurate (as opposed to just merely "communicatively fluent"). Such instances though in my experience have unfortunately been overshadowed by the arrogant majority who fit the image I posted preiviously.

I'd like to think that your experience is the true majority. But perhaps that's the frustrated idealist in me-:))

bright

You're correct, Stu. As always, it cuts both ways. For instance, listen to a Dutchman pronounce 'Sometimes, it takes time to do a good job.', and it usually comes out as "Itt, tehkss sawmmtajmss tajm, to doo eh goot djawp." (Phonetically transcribed, of course. This though applies more to older than younger speakers)

Jij spreekt mijn taal dus echt niet beter dan mij hè? Dikke doei. Gebruik eens wat dure woorden en probeer nu eens één enkele zin te vormen die ietwat langer is dan de simpele vijf woordjes die jij zojuist gebruikt hebt. (Goh, jij zult wel trots op jezelf zijn!)


My English isn't good. My English is excellent, or up to par atleast. Here;

The linguistic skills (Subject.) of many a Dutch tourist that I have encountered (Notice this is past tense.) during my travels - although I speak their language far more correctly than they seemed (Yup, past tense!) to be capable of speaking mine - appeared (Past tense again!) to equate a liberal sprinkling of profanities and swearwords such as ''f*ck'', aswell as the usage of americanisations such as ''dude'' and ''awesome'' ad-nauseam, (Comma.) to (Instead of with, to the subject at the end of the sentence of course.) speaking 'good' English. (Dot.) Is there something wrong with this equation here, people?

Answer: Infact, there are a few things wrong with your equation, yes. (Shall I become an English teacher then?)

;)


On the other hand, there are a lot of.. (Oh, and who have would probably be better than ''with''.)

;)


Of course, because this is the language in which they are expected to communicate on a daily basis.


Makes perfect sense.


Those aren't my standards, but I can only hope to become as articulate as some of the people I converse with. (That's how I learn.)


I do, but then again, tell me which English person can truly say that he or she has mastered *my* language. (Double-standard anyone?)


Some scientists believe that it's benificial for people to speak more than one language, because some languages force people - unconsciencely - to use different parts of their brains, which they otherwise, wouldn't use. For the sake of variety, education, business and creativity, I think it's actually a good thing to keep all of our languages intact instead of surrendering to ourselves to English completely.

:)

We didn't abandon our language under partitions. We learnt and cherished it during wars
and occupations, even putting our lives at risk for it, so abandoning it by Poles in independent
Poland now, is as likely as abandoning Turkish in Turkey or German in Germany :)

I am quite happy with my bastardized, used and abused version of English (my Irish
and American friends seem to be happy with it as well), so I see no reason at all to
abandon Polish, which, in its proper written or spoken form, really gives me a metaphysical,
linguistic orgasm (I don't get it with any other language, sorry :)).

quite right (I assumed it was obvious I thought the teachers in question were insane).

On the other hand, Americans tend to see all non-US citizens as potential immigrants who need to hurry up their personal process of assimilation. This is also insane and wrongheaded but the idea is definitely there among a lot of them.

wsu.edu/~brians/errors/infact.html

:) sorry, AJ, your English looks impressive, regardless. IMO, from my POV.

Although I don't really get that bitching about tenses...


Nobody is ever 'whining', innit :) I'd happily join you in the bemoaning thing, same goes for Polish, standards are falling. Or changing...

What makes you a whiner, though, is blaming the foreigners rather, than your own ilk. The foreigners attack you with besmirched English, you counter them with English pure and resounding, and see the jaws dropping low, knees bending themselves on their own, and eyes begging for more in mute appeal. That's the way.

After some practice, you may grow balls big enough to speak that English to your countrymen... :)

Thing is, that perfect English of yours is an extremely elusive beast. It happens to me to listen to some English speaker with utter awe and admiration, but this reaction is based on my foreigner's subjective conjecture only. How do I know that I admire the really worthy ones?

Believe me, it is excellent.

You are no slouch either though - Torq too.

Plenty of others I should praise I'm sure...

Stu - Dutch language is pretty easy to speak tell ya :)

I never really taught myself Dutch and I could understand a lot from similarity to the German (and a little less to English) and speaking it is not much hassle either (the couple of rules are pretty quick to grasp)

Well, my excuse is that I'm a foreigner who has never studied English, but thank you for pointing it out! (Will remember that one!)

Hey, I'm not the one who's English, but since Lyzko claims to be, he or she should really look at his or her own mistakes for a change, before he or she 'bemoans' anyone else's efforts to use his or her language to the best of their abilities.


Really? Well, I'm sure you've heard or read somewhere that a past tense is a grammatical tense which places an action or a situation in the past? I don't know much, but I do know that you shouldn't mix the past tense with the present tense in the same sentence. I figured that if you're English you should know that.

I'm actually looking forward to some more nit-picking in this thread, because I absolutely love the English language, and I certainly wouldn't mind to learn more.


Thank you. I'm trying.

:)

Too bad I won't be able to hear you pronounce the different eu-sound in "neus" and "deur", the ui-sound, how you pronounce "gelijk" and "heerlijk".

Or tell me the differences in the meaning of the sentence "ik heb dat geld niet gestolen" depending on which word you put the stress, or the difference in the meaning of the word "overdrijven", depending on where you put the stress and the correct sequence of words in a sentence.

I think the reason why you think it is simple is because you don't know how to pronounce Dutch correctly. I won't even start about grammar rules.

believe me - I really haven't stolen that money ;)

yes - I can imagine Dutch has it's specific intricacies be it grammatical or (of ;) phonetical

and yes perhaps my spoken Dutch is not perfect (I mean pronouncing all the sounds of the language - especially the g and h difference)

as for grammar I think you will agree that Dutch language shares a lot of rules with German and English languages

I disagree, because all the funny details and complications that most textbooks don't even show you, certainly make Dutch more complicated to learn than German or English, even though German and Dutch might show a lot of similarities. You might learn how to speak and write Dutch correctly, and it may seem equally difficult to German at first, but you'll find that our language is extremely metaphorical, which is something that most foreigners can't ever hope to get the hang of. (Just how it is!)

The difficulty of my language isn't about what you have learned to say, but about all the different ways of saying it. Something simple *snickers* like; ''How's it going?'' for example;

Hoe is 't?
Hoe is het?
Hoe is 't met je?
Hoe is 't met jou?
Hoe is het met je?
Hoe is het met jou?
Hoe gaat 't?
Hoe gaat het?
Hoe gaat 't met je?
Hoe gaat 't met jou?
Hoe gaat het met je?
Hoe gaat het met jou?
Hoe gaat alles met je?
Hoe gaat alles met jou?
Hoe gaat alles nu met je?
Hoe gaat alles nu met jou?
Alles goed?
Alles goed met je?
Alles goed met jou?
Gaat alles goed?
Gaat alles goed met je?
Gaat alles goed met jou?
Hoe gaat 't ermee?
Hoe gaat het ermee?
Hé pik, alles goed?
Hoes't?
Hoes'tie?
Hoe gaat 'ie?
Hoe gaat 'ie met je?
Hoe gaat 'ie met jou?
Hoe staat 't ermee?
Hoe staat het ermee?
Alles lekker?
Gaat 't lekker?
Gaat 'ie lekker?

Okay, I'll stop right there, because I can go on for ages!

xD

Appreciated :) although you'd change your opinion if you heard me speaking...


Ah, now I see what you mean. But it's a complex sentence. 'People I've met will remain in my memory', no problem.


And I am with you in this expectation. But then we'll end up in you know what..

Regardless: 'the Dutch equate sprinkling with speaking' seems Ok to me. I had to check:
idioms.thefreedictionary.com/equate+with]

Yes, that would be correct in *that* particular context, but unfortunately Lyzko interrupted his/her sentence twice with a subject and made a comparison, and since the technical correctness of words isn't in the same class as the political correctness of words, but still belong to the same subject, being language, then you should compare ''to'' instead of compare ''with''. For example; You can compare a house in New York to a house in Amsterdam, because these houses might be very similar, but you can't ever compare New York with Amsterdam, since these are two totally different cities. (Understand?)


;)


Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that you can't make the action of speaking equal to the quality of language. You can however, equalize the subject, being language.


Correct, but again, that's in a different context.

:)

Oh, and your link:

idioms.thefreedictionary.com/equate
;)Sorry, even I had to edit myself twice, because it's late!

Hoi, weer AJ!!

Als Nederlander liever je eigene fouten in 't Engels zoeken, dan fouten in teksten van Engelstalige verbeteren, want wij spreken onze moedertaal van de Middelbare School tot de universiteit-:))

In addition, I have never claimed to speak a language perfectly, whether it's Polish, Dutch, even my native English. Why then do umpteen foreigners, one after the other, insist on trying to switch to the interlocutor's native language when the foreigners often makes as many mistakes in English as the outsider does in their language??! Does it somehow sound 'cool' to mangle English and then laugh at others' attempts to speak Dutch, Polish, Farsi whatever???

If I were to encounter a young European who stated, "I'd love to speak English with you just to practice it." or something to that effect, I'd have no problem. All too often however, foreigners think they know English so well, that they don't need to practice it.

I must say, your written English posted thus far, seems quite good. Perhaps though, given sufficient time, I'd have some (small) things to correct LOL.

There's also a MEGA difference between an actual error ("I didn't came." vs. "I didn't come.") vs. a typo ( "Hoi, weer!" vs. "Hoi weer, !" or "......foreigners makes" instead of "foreigners make" etc...)

At least in English, I make typos of omission and not errors of ignorance-:))) I don't pretend to be a prodigy in every language I speak - noone does.

By the way, A J, how long have you been interested in Polish??

C'mon! It's better than "quite good" Lyzko.

AJ writes pretty much like a native English speaker most of the time - and an articulate one at that.

Teffle, with all due respect, there are bound to be exceptions. My German is frankly better than most foreigners, perhaps I'm exception, yet it's certainly not identical to an educated German native-:)) The same applies to A J. The person's English looks good, yet only continuing to see spontaneous examples of their posting about various English-language topics from Gilbert & Sullivan up through Woody Allen shtick etc.. will reveal any holes in their English.

I'm the first to admit this too about my languages.

AJ, you're just being difficult :)

Just admit the lust of result beclouded your usual whatever, and it's settled. Your imaginary subject has nothing to do with this sentence.


Nobody pretends? :)

Or no one pretends....

:)

Last time I looked, Nott, "noone" is spelled as one word, not two-:)) "No one" may well be standard in the UK (after all, they write "to day" whereas we in the States write "today"..), also, it may be used to indicate more than ONE being,but not here. Besides, that's really nitpicking! Moreover, "nobody" and "noone" are identical in usage, if only that perhaps the latter is more literary vernacular than colloquial.

Rubbish. I mean, what they say is rubbish, if they say it.

Let's face it though - few people actually care about the quality of their language, provided they're understood most of the time. And it doesn't matter if they speak their native language or a foreign one, for them it's just a tool. And just as there are craftsmen who love their tools, most of them just have them and use them. No actual reason to get overexcited.

Fine, Nott! Just let the non-craftsman not delude himself into thinking his product is 'only good enough', i.e. adequate, when in fact it isn't. A little modesty in the face of imperfection, that's all we're asking, and a little gratitude for helpful correction. Is that too bloody much to expect?

Wrong. There is no such word. It is two words.

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/noone

sorry... :)

thing is, that this spelling hurts my eyes, that's why I cared to point it out at all in this chat on correctness.

And no, the Brits don't spell it 'to day', unless as in 'day to day'. The current day is 'today'.

You missed my point, though. Even if I don't agree with AJ's bitching about equating, the proper ending of that sentence should be 'no(person) is'. Unless it was a joke beyond the reach of my sense of humour...

edit:


I think so. People just don't care, in their majority, and they are fully entitled to this attitude. Don't expect everybody to be a zealot.

And, mind it, I don't condemn your zeal. Exceptionally, as this one doesn't show any tendency to kill people. Or heaven't shown yet.

Edit:
In fact, I am with you in this. I back you up. There should be more people preaching the love of language. Verily.

Words of support appreciated-:))) And yes, I know I can be a little persnickety at times.

Back to spelling. Alternative spellings abound in English, to a far greater degree than in practically any language I know. Webster's Third Int'l. will show "noone" next to "no one"; both perfectly valid. The OED on the other hand, may be much more proscriptive in matters of orthography (as, no doubt, with everything elseLOL)!

Older versions of Late Modern English, well into the last century in fact, do show "today" occasionally written as two words, albeit this has probably long since gone out of fashion.

Polish sure as heck doesn't have alternative spellings in its standard language, that's for darn sure. Regional/dialect pronunciation however, that's a different story, as it is with most langages. German curiously enough does, i.e. between Germany proper and Austria, e.g. "ZwetschKe" vs. "ZwetschGe", both meaning "plum" (śliwa)-:))

As far as my being a "zealot", I'm no more or less zealous than any normal chap who doesn't see a bleedin' difference between the simple pride in putting a door on the right way (back to the craftsman analogy) and putting an English sentence together...properly!! They both are indicative of the same attitude: Do it right, or don't do it at all.

The proper German spelling is "Zwetschge", those freaks in the Southeast speak their own hillbilly form of German, we'll call it Austrian. Mitsammen, grindig, hudelig, and a bunch of other bastardizations which they include in their language.

PS: Zwetschge is a type of Pflaume :)

Yeah...were I come from it's "Pflaume" only! ;)

Thank you. Just don't 'bemoan' other people's linguistic abilities when you know you're making plenty of mistakes yourself?


Sure, but I've made my point. (And I'm right about the subtle difference between comparing to and comparing with.)


I will not admit to anything, because my sentence was correct. Oh, and mixing past tense and present tense in the same sentence while spelling ad nauseam wrong just makes you look funny when you're trying to criticise Dutch people who speak English. (And now she's telling me to look for my own mistakes, which I am actually already doing!)


Sure, but *I* have never made the claim that I speak or write English better than the English themselves. Oh, and you *definitely* don't speak or write my language better than I do, but I would very much like to help you with it!

;P


Not in my case, but I do expect you to admit your own mistakes whenever someone else points out that you're making them.


So am I!

:)

Das wusste ich aber doch, convex. Trotzdem danke fuer die Infos-:))

In my grandparents' house, good ol' "German" 'Pflaume' was called (and even spelled) 'die Zwetschke' rather than the DUDEN-correct proper way with a devoiced, yet written, 'g'! When I eventually learned "proper" German in school, I was (un)pleasantly surprised by how much bad German I finally had to unlearn. You guys talk about hillbilly talk, in Austria 'Butter' (masło)is masculine, so is 'Zwiebel' (cybula).

Similar situations exist I'm certain for rural Poles who end up in college, causing nasty guffaws from their classmates with their odd pronunciations and country locutionsLOL