będzie potrafił?

The combination of the perfective verb potrafić with the auxiliary verb będzie is becoming increasingly common. Does it offend you or have you accepted it as normal? Perfectvie verbs do not pair up with the będzie-type formation.

Doesn't 'On potrafi' alone already mean 'he will manage, be able...' without the addition of a superfluous będzie.

I'm not a native speaker, but I've never seen 'będzie' + 'potrafił' in the sense of 'will be able to'.

'Nie potrafi spotkać się dziś wieczór.' = He isn't able to get together tonight.
So far as I'm aware.

Best to ask a native Polish speaker:-)

"potrafić" is an imperfective verb

"ja potrafię" is a present tense form

"ja będę potrafił" is a correct future tense form

Good night and good luck (-:

it's in present tense, so no


that's what the auxilary verb is there for, to mark a future imperfect tense. a bit like 'will' in English.

Potrafić has a special feature, it can be used in both imperfective and perfective aspects.

Please refer to 301 Polish Verbs by Janecki.

What do you guys say about the difference between będzie mógł and będzie potrafił? I don't really get that one.

Mogę to zrobić = I can do it
Potrafię to zrobić = I know how to do it

Maybe będzie potrafił is used for a single specific action, and będzie mógł is for repeated/habitual/non-specific actions? Or? It's a tricky verb.

I would say that potrafić is neither perfective nor imperfective (being both is functionally the same as being neither). It's one of the places where that distinction breaks down (or has broken down with this one verb).

Semantically, it seems (in my non-native intuitions) to be more perfective in that it implies some kind of completed action.

Morphologically and etymologically it looks perfective too (perfective trafić = plus a prefix po-). And IIRC there used to be an imperfectve counterpart potrafiać which is no longer used.

But as będzie potrafił indicates, it functions syntactically in modern Polish as an imperfective.

Well, I'd say that the difference it's like, będzie mógł means simply that you can do a thing or you're allowed to do it. Then, if you say będzie potrafił, it's more like you are capable, competent or maybe skilled (it depends of the case) to do something. I could say that this is a little bite like believe in something or have faith in something. The second one means a little bit more than the first one, right? So with the verb móc and potrafić, is the same, the second expresses more feeling or power in the action that concerns the verb

This brings up the old commie slogan - Polak potrafi!

I might (very freely) translate that into modern American as "Poles get it done!" or "Poles can get it done!" (I think the plural is more idiomatic in modern English)

I'd say it's just an imperfective verb (with no the perfective counterpart) and creating a third cathegory of verb (neither perfective nor imperfective) is not needed here and makes some confusion.

'Potrafić' means to have some ability that someone has or has not (it's not like an action that can be finished (perfective) or not (imperfective)). That verb can be used in present tense, which is a pure 'imperfective' feature in Polish.

Cinek

I would agree with that. In the past tense the sentence "Potrafiłem wejść na drzewo" sounds to me as stating a completed action. Curiously enough, the phrase "Będę potrafił wejść na drzewo" sounds to me as such as well, although formally the verb takes the imperfective aspect.

This is because you mean: 'udało mi (perf.) się wejść na drzewo (dlatego że potrafiłem-potrafię (imperf.) to robić )'.
'Potrafić' describes your abilities, not your actions.

Cinek

Isn't this a case of evolving aspect - from purely perfective to perfectvie or imperfective depending on context. I'm sure this is a fairly recent development of maybe the past two or three decades. If so, anyone know exactly when it started appearing?

The situation around the verb potrafić is rather complex. Here what the linguistic advisor at PWN says about it:
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Question: Dlaczego w Wielkim słowniku poprawnej polszczyzny PWN hasło potrafić jest opatrzone dwoma kwalifikatorami: dk. albo ndk.? Czy to możliwe, by jeden czasownik miał dwa aspekty? Oraz dlaczego nie zaleca się analitycznej formy czasu przyszłego: będę potrafił?

Answer: "Potrafić" to właściwie czasownik dokonany, „Nie wiem, czy potrafię” znaczy 'Nie wiem, czy mi się uda'. Jako wyłącznie dokonany figuruje on w słowniku Lindego (jego niedokonany odpowiednik podany tam to "potrafiać", dziś nie używany). W słowniku Doroszewskiego informacja o aspekcie czasownika potrafić ma postać „dk (i ndk)” i zasadniczo w takim kształcie można by ją powtarzać do dziś. Zdania takie ja przytoczone na początku tej porady można wprawdzie interpretować współcześnie na dwa sposoby, jako zawierające czasownik dokonany albo niedokonany, ale imiesłów przymiotnikowy czynny (potrafiący) i imiesłów przysłówkowy współczesny (potrafiąc) rażą nieporadnością, choć przecież formy takie są właściwe czasownikom niedokonanym. Także czas przyszły złożony, właściwy czasownikom niedokonanym, budzi wątpliwości [tzn. forma "będę potrafił - przypis mój], nie bez powodu więc ostrzega przed nimi słownik poprawnej polszczyzny. Dla równowagi można jednak zanotować, że imiesłowu potrafiwszy też nie ma w użyciu, choć tego rodzaju imiesłowy, tzw. przysłówkowe uprzednie, są właściwe czasownikom dokonanym.

Czasowników dwuaspektowych w polszczyźnie jest sporo, ale są to przeważnie wyrazy obcego pochodzenia (np. aresztować, ekspediować), a potrafić jest na ich tle wyjątkiem. Innym rodzimym wyjątkiem jest cisnąć, najpierw używane w znaczeniu 'uwierać', a potem też 'rzucić', tu jednak, jak widać, z różnicą aspektu związana jest wyraźnie różnica znaczenia, podczas gdy w wypadku czasownika potrafić różnica znaczeń jest systemowa i przewidywalna, paralelna do różnicy aspektów.

— Mirosław Bańko, PWN

NO! (Occam's razor)

YES! (That's exactly what the above description from the PWN site says; from, as Polonius3 puts it, "purely perfective to perfectvie or imperfective depending on context".)

.
So, 'potrafię' is present or future ? If it was dokonany than it must be future... No?


Wikipedia:
"...Dopiero na początku XIX wieku, w latach 1807-1814, ukazało się w Warszawie sześciotomowe dzieło. Jego autorem był cudzoziemiec z pochodzenia, Samuel Bogumił Linde..."

What language are we talking about? Maybe Mickewicz or Słowacki could use 'potrafić' as a perfective verb among 'kobita', 'tuszę', 'mocium panie', 'spuść się na mnie' and 'pociot'.


So what wrong with sentence like this:

Po zrealizowaniu programu nauczania przedmiotu ... uczeń będzie potrafił ...


Exactly.

You didn't convince me. In todays Polish 'potrafić' is a pure imperfective verb. In the past it my have been a perfective po-trafić, but it's not so any more.

Cinek

If this sentence offensive to anyone?: ' Po zrealizowaniu programu nauczania przedmiotu ... uczeń potrafi ...'?
Does anyone think it does not mean: 'Upon completion of the programme of instruction the pupil will be able to...'?

I presume those who are not offended by 'już przeczytałem TĄ kisążkę' will also think 'będę potrafił' is OK.

Having completed the course of study, the student is able to...

as opposed to "....uczeń umie" = student will have the capacity??

In many dictionaries 'umieć' vs. 'potrafić' appears as a rather murky distinction (..although to a Pole, it is as clear as glass?

-:))))

"Umiec" is more to do with the things you have learned, with the knowledge while "potrafic" has more to do with the natural ability in some direction. But the distinction is not clear and the words can be exchanged.

Eg. nie umiem tego zrobic - coz i havent learned how to do it;
nie potrafie tego zrobic - i cant do it coz it is beyond my natural abilities even if i tried hard to learn

We TRUE Poles :-b use 'będzie w stanie'.

Just wondering then if the difference between 'umieć' vs. 'potrafić' is either similiar or identical to the distinction between 'wiedzieć' and 'znać', both meaning in at least one sense 'to know'.

about the same difference as the difference between 'can' and 'be able to to' :). they are synonyms and can be used alternately


this is a different kind of distinction. while those two words translate to 'know' in English they are used in different situations in Polish.

Wiem o czym mówisz. - I know what you're saying. (you can't use znać in here)
Znam go. - I know him. (you can't use wiedzieć in here)

Wiedzieć is consistent with posessing information about something. Znać is consistent with being familiar with something or someone.

I'm not trying to convince you. I'm quoting an expert who says the verb "potrafić" is marked in modern dictionaries as having two aspects :perfective and imperfective. Actually, you are taking out of the expert's opinion statements which favor your one-sided view that the verb is purely imperfective,


while leaving out bits that don't:


Also, the Linde dictionary is quoted as a historical source only, showing the past state of affairs, and no one is trying to impose on anyone the past usages of this dictionary.

I'll try to illustrate the expert's view that the verb still has a distinctly perfective character in modern Polish when I have some more free time. Undoubtedely, the verb has evolved into one having distinctly imperfective features as well, but that doesn't mean we can classify it in such a bold way as you do.

Polish looks to share much with many other European languages, having different verbs for subtely different 'Aktionsarten' as in French, Spanish, German etc....

Most enlightening, Justysia et al--:))))

Nie UMIEM po rosyjsku. = I don't know how to/have no ability to speak Russian.

Nie POTRAFIĘ razem iść do kina. = I'm not able/can't go together to the cinema.

On the right track finally???

Nie umiem po rosyjsku is acceptable - but it is not standard educated Polish. Nie znam rosyjskiego would be better. Or: Nie umiem mówić po rosyjsku - is also correct. However if you use it, 90% of my compatriots would not even blink an eye.

Nie potrafię razem iść do kina - sounds weird and no one would say that. Mind you, "potrafię" means (more or less) "to know how to do sth". Check these out:

Nie potrafię zawiązać krawata.
Nie potrafię mówić tak płynnie jak ty.
Potrafię policzyć do stu po angielsku.
Potrafię zreperować auto.

And by the way (from Wiki....): różnica znaczeniowa między „umieć” a „potrafić”: „umieć” dotyczy głównie wiedzy nabytej teoretycznie, a „potrafić” –- praktycznie

Yes


Um yes but depends on the reason why u cant go to the cinema (with someone?) like - nie potrafie z nia isc do kina (eg coz of the memories going to the cinema is too painful).

Potrafic is more about ability, like - nie potrafie grac na skrzypcach, nie potrafie skakac wzwyz, nie potrafie zapomniec o tobie etc

Nie umiem mówić po rosyjsku.
or
Nie znam rosyjskiego.


Nie mogę iść razem z tobą do kina.

potrafić and umieć are synonyms, but móc, which also means 'can' in English is not their synonym. potrafić and umieć mean to have ability/skill to do something. móc is used to describe will or power.

Nie mogę się doczekać. - I can't wait.
Czy mogę w czymś pomóc? - Can i help with something?
Potrafię grać na gitarze. - I can play the guitar.
Mógłbym pograć na gitarze, gdybym ją miał. - I could play the guitar if i had one.

See the difference?