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The above is a short sampling of some of the garbage that floats around this forum, along wth Jopilsudski's made up quotes. Until now, I really enjoyed exchanging views in this forum. Even if i disagreed with much of what was said, I recognize that a controversial issue is bound to arouse passions and I was not offended by people who argue againt my views. I tried to state my case without being insulting and sticking to logic and stating the facts as I understand them. I hope that even if you disagreed with me, that I've opened up your minds to the other side of the story and that you are more aware now of the Jewish and Israeli viewpoints.

But frankly I don't enjoy it any more. There's too much hateful garbage floating around the forum, and this is apparently not the place to carry on a serious discussion. So this is it. I'm out of here. Let me just leave you with this reminder: Much of what you think you know about Jews, our religion, our characteristics, our attitudes and our country has almost no connection with reality. You're seeing us through the prism of what reporters, politicians and interested parties want you to see. Look for the truth. Visit Israel. See for yourself.

Goodbye.

News / 10,000 ISRAELIS READY TO CLAIM FOR POLISH CITIZENSHIP AND POLISH LAND! [628]

Isthatu, if an enemy were lobbing mortars and rockets into civilian neighborhoods in your country (say like in the blitz) I imagine your country would attack that enemy. Was the british bombing of cities in germany a "holocaust"? Your use of simplistic logic is just a way to throw in the H word, as a provocation. I don't think you use that word to criticise any other country that carries out miltary response to agression. What does that say about your objectivity?

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I found this site which seems to have a lot of population statistics.
israelipalestinianprocon.org/populationpalestine.html

As you'll see in the graphs, in 1940 Jews were about 30% of the total population of Palestine (what was supposed to be partitioned into jewish and arab states). In 1950 the Jews were about 50%. This inlcudes the arabs who were in Gaza and the west bank which were under Egyptian and Jordanian control till 1967.

In Jerusalem itself Jews were the majority since about 1870.

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Why is it so obvious to you that it belonged to the palestinians? Because it was called "palestine"? The term palestinians referred to anyhone who lived there, Jew, Muslim or Christian. It wasn't the name of an ethnic group till the Arabs started using it in the 50s and 60s. The land belonged to no one group. Jews and arabs both had a right to be there and to immigrate to there. There was large arab immigration too during the century before 1948. But since they had totally different national aspirations, they could not be united in one state. If the partition was honored by both sides, there would never have been a single arab refugee and the arabs would have had their palestinian state 60 years ago.

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I don't what year you are referring to , but in 1948 the population of the whole mandate, including what became israel and the palestinian territories was about 33% Jews, 7% christians and 60% muslims. So in the area of Israel proper the porportions were nowhere near what you state.


The facts don't seem to bother you. They didn't take it away from the palestinians. It wasn't theirs to take away from, as I explained several times. And we weren't crazy to accept it. They were crazy to reject it. The fact is we have a country and they don't.


With the palestinian movement led by Arafat and others who declared constantly that their goal is to destroy israel we'd have to be crazy to help them set up a state to allow them to do so. After the Oslo accords, at camp david we did enter negotionations accepting the idea of a palestinian state and Arafat answered with the intifada. It's not israel that's keeping them from independence, it's their inability to set it up themselves, and maybe their lack of interest. (It's much easier to blow up buses and blame everyone else for their problems). And it's certianly not our job to set it up for them. They'll tell you that themselves.

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My thick head thinks that it's more important to solve the problem than talk about responsibility. But if you want to talk responsibility, then fine:

The palestinians are responsible for rejecting the partition and starting a war and creating their own refugee problem.

The Arab countries are responsible for not letting the palestinians set up an independent state during the 19 years they controlled the west bank and gaza.

The Arab countries, and the UN are responsible for letting them fester in refugee camps for 60 years without doing a thing to solve the problem.

Israel's responsibility is to defend itself, just like any other country on earth.
Get that through your thick head.

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Is that land now in Poland or in Russia or Belarus?



My point is that we did not take a sovereign country, expel the people and set up our own in place of it.That seems to be your impression of what happened. But it just isn't true.

In fact both Jews and Arabs were living in an area with no independent political status (as part of an empire). The Zionist movement encouraged Jewish immigration and accelerated the development of the country as part of a movement to liberate the jews from an oppressive existence in exile. Arabs opposed this for their own national and religious reasons. Continuous fighting between these two groups led to a UN imposed compromise which was accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs. The war that the Arabs started to prevent the compromise resulted in refugees. This was mostly because Arab armies encouraged arabs to leave and get out of the way so they could wipe out the Jews and then they could then come back and take their homes. Other arabs were driven out in the fighting (not 700,000) just as the Arabs drove Jews out of Jerusalem, the Etzion bloc and other places. Each side tried to drive out the other. (That's what happens in war and it's usually wise not to start one). They were not put into camps by Israel. They were put there by Arabs and by UN agencies. If they are still in camps to this day (60 years later!) there is obviously someone who wants to perpetuate a crisis situation and it isn't Israel.

It does not take 60 years to resettle refugees.

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There's a basic misunderstanding here. What we had since 1948 was not taken from the palestinians. There was no Arab country or nation called Palestine, ever. That area of the world was part of the Ottoman empire for hundreds of years. Before that it was the cusaders, other muslim empires, byzantines, romans and before that -- the Jews. We had the land from about 3000 bc and continued living there in large numbers after the Roman destruction till about 300 AD. After that there was always a Jewish community there and it was always connected with diaspora communities.

In the 19th century the people who lived in the area between the Jordan river and the sea were mostly Muslims, Arabs and others, but also many Jews, Christians and various minorities. The Jewish element increased during the 19th century and began building towns and industries, which attracted more immigration of Arabs from surrounding regions. From the Ottoman and Arab points of view, these areas were a part of the districts of Beirut, Damascus and Jerusalem. Thinking of the "Holy Land" as a separate entity was a Jewish and Christian perception, influenced by Jewish history and by the Bible. The growing increase in Jewish population occured in the context of the Ottoman empire and not within some couintry called "palestine". It was only called "palestine" when the british took over after WWI. They may not have had a right to rule this region, but they took it from the Ottomans, not the Arabs. The Arabs were actually allies of the british and at first had no problem with the idea of jews building a national home there. But during that period, Arabs started developing a national conciousness too, and that came into conflict with the growing jewish national movement. In 1947, in order to resolve the conflicting claims over the land, the UN voted to divide the area into a Jewish and an Arab state. The Jews founded Israel. The Arabs did NOT found "Palestine". Jordan and Egypt took over what they cound and tried to take over the Jewish state too. We fought back and took what we could from them, seeing as they rejected the compromise idea anyway and tried to wipe us off the map. The arab controlled west bank and gaza were never set up as a palestinian state but were occupied by Jordan and Egypt. When they attacked Israel from there in 1967 we took it from them - not from the palestinians, who were never an independent entity.

We did not take a country away from the palestinians. They never had one. They could have had one in 1948, but they were more concerned with destroying ours than with building theirs.

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The reason I mention it is that most people don't know that there was an exchange of populations, similar to what happened in Pakistan and india. The only way these jews will ever be compensated is if it's part of a deal to compensate arabs of palestine who lost their homes.

But let me ask you a question: Do you think ethnic Germans who lost land in Poland should be compensated? Probably not, after all the Germans started the war, they should suffer the consequences. Well then why should the Arabs, who started the war to destroy Israel in 1948 in violation of the UN decision to partition the country, be compensated for the war they started? It wasn't Israel who invaded the Arab areas. It was Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq and the local Arabs who invaded Israel the day it was founded and also prevented the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state.

But having said all that, I would rather pay compensation that they don't deserve than have endless wars. But who on the other side wants to really sove the refugee problem. If they honestly did I think they would find more than enough money in the Arab world to solve the problem years ago. It's only been festering for 60 years because the Arabs need a problem to blame their failures on. If Israel were to disappear tomorrow, there would still never be a Palestinian state. There would be no need for one. The area would just become part of Jordan, Egypt or Syria. And the "palestinians" would be worse off than ever.

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Many Israeli political people have suggested that Palestinians who lost land should be compensated monetarily. That's a possible solution. But on the same token there were an almost equal number of jews who were driven out of Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Lybia and Algeria who also had their property taken from them. That can all be calculated and let everyone be compensated. That would cost a lot less than wars.

But if the Arab countries really wanted to solve the refugee issue would it have lasted for 60 years?

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I'll give you a real example. I have a friend whose father had two houses in Krakow. After the war he found these houses occupied by squatters who moved in assuming the family was killed. He was threatened with violence to make sure he would not press the issue. Not wanting to be killed, he left for Israel. He died in the 80s, never having tried again to reclaim the houses. After the Communist government fell, my friend hired a Polish lawyer to help him reclaim the properties. As it turned out, the houses were held by the Krakow city government, who was collecting rents during all those years. So he worked out a deal where the city kept the rent, but he got back the property. Now he's collecting rents (from rent-protected tenants), and eventually he will sell it. If the buildings had been sold by the city to private hands, then the city would have been obligated to compensate my friend for selling what did not belong to them. Germany did not keep his property, a Polish city government did. There are cases like this all over poland, but "luckily" for the tenants and municipalities, nearly all of the claimants are dead now. Some heirs will make claims, and it is mostly the municipalities that will have to make agreements to close the issue.

This isn't about who is responsible for the holocaust -- that's Germany. This is about what happened to property after the war. Individual Poles and Polish cities have been holding property that is not theirs. These are monetary issues that can be solved case by case.

My grandfather left poland in 1905, so I have nothing to gain or lose by any of this.

News / 10,000 ISRAELIS READY TO CLAIM FOR POLISH CITIZENSHIP AND POLISH LAND! [628]

Did Israel claim anything against the Polish government? I haven't heard of that. What I have heard is that individual jews from Poland have tried to legally retrieve property that was taken away from them violently or was occupied by individual Poles after the war. What could be wrong with that? If there are cases where it's not practical to return ownership of the property then compensation should solve the issue.

Don't expect Israelis to actually move to Poland. It's not going to happen.

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Just to avoid confusion. There's a Kalisher on the forum now and it's not me. I'm Kaliszer.

About your suggestion that Israel should withdraw form all land captured in 1967 and then, if the palestinians still attack to have the US and Europeans help defend us. First of all: We did withdraw from the Gaza strip, which is geographically separate from the West bank, and then Hamas took over and increased the firing of rockets into Israel (which had occured under the Palestinian Authority as well). I don't think we should take the same chance on the West bank because that region overlooks all of central Israel. Since it is certain that the Palestinians will shoot rockets from there, this means that all of central israel will be running to shelters every day to survive the rockets. No sane country would put themselves in such a situation.

As far as your idea to have the US and Europe help defend us: As an independent country, we don't want anyone else to send their soldiers here. We can manage oursleves. It would be enough that Europe stops criticizing us and threatening boycotts because we try to defend ourselves.

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Omniba,
I tried to answer your message but you removed your address.

News / 10,000 ISRAELIS READY TO CLAIM FOR POLISH CITIZENSHIP AND POLISH LAND! [628]

If I were british I'd be sore too. And I would look at the Irgun from a different perspective. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. But that doesn't delegitimize Jewish sovereignty. The US also gained independence by killing the British, as did much of Africa. In pre-1948, the mainstream military group, the Hagana, cooperated with the british for the most part -- to the extent that the much smaller irgun considered them traitors. But it was the Hagana that everntually became the core of the Israeli army after independence.

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Your "facts" are way off:
1. The eye patch guy was Moshe Dayan who belonged to the Hagana which was the left-wing army that opposed the right-wing Irgun who blew up the King David Hotel (British headquarters).

2. The struggle against the british occupation force was one of the factors that made the british leave earlier than planned. But jewish independence was accomplished as the culmination of about 70 years of settlement, building cities and industries and government institutions -- it was not a "reward" for killing british soldiers.

3. The british were not blameless. They got the palestine mandate in the first place stating that they would build a Jewish national home. Then after a few short years they cut off Jewish immigration and refused entry to desparate refugees from Hitler. After the holocaust they continued denying entry to Jews. They set themselves up as an enemy of the Jews of palestine and were then treated as such.


And ashkenazi jews, who had also been living there for hundreds of years. The point is that there was never, before 1948, an ethnic group called "palestinians". So saying that the land was "palestinian" in those days is an anachronism. It was controlled by the british, who publicly promised the jews (and privately promised the arabs) an independent homeland in the same place..

News / 10,000 ISRAELIS READY TO CLAIM FOR POLISH CITIZENSHIP AND POLISH LAND! [628]

Some facts:
Gaza has a population of 1.4 million, not all refugees. (The figure of 4.4 probably refers to all those claiming to be palestinian refugees anywhere in the Arab world). Gaza had the same population before israel withdrew. So we did not set up an open air refugee camp by withdrawing. I suppose according to that logic that if we would withdraw from the west bank then we will have set up an even bigger "refugee camp".


Generally either by continuing on our way or, depending on the situation, using tear gas or firing in the air, not at children. Your question sounds as if you are expecting a different answer. But the truth is that doesn't happen much lately anyway. It was common in the first intifada, along with rioting by adults. In the second intifada the palestinian weapon of choice was gunfire, to which we respond with gunfire. Lately the weapon of choice is rockets to civilian areas, to which we respond with targeted attacks on terrorists.


Palestine was the name of the area in those days, and it was a British mandate given to them by the League of Nations. Your use of the term "palestinian" implies that there was an ethnic group called "the palestinians" in those days who would presumably be the rightful owners of any country called palestine, but that is an anachronism. Palestine was simply the Roman name for the area we call "Israel". It is not the name of any ethnic group or country in Arab history. The local Arabs were Palestinians Arabs the same way the local Jews were Palestinian Jews. The people who most often refered to themselves as "palestinians" in those days were Jews of Palestine. (ie the "palestinian" units in the british army were made up primarily of jews).

The arabs resented the designation because it implied that "palestine" was a separate entity from transjordan and syria, which in Arab eyes were one entity and the home of one ethnic group. Palestine as a separate entity was a concept rooted in Jewish and Christian history, not in Arab history.

So your comment was incorrect and misleading.

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It depends how you define "closure".
Closure can be peaceful airing of grievances, like in South Africa.
Closure can mean revenge, like in Rwanda.

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Well, now she would be considered Israeli, not jewish (because the US doesn't have that category) or Russian (because she was not a russian citizen since about 1922). She is no longer alive, but when she was she had no real curiosity about Odessa where she was born. Actually, I found out after she died that her grandparents were from Podolia in Ukraine, a town called Jarmolinice. That's near Proskurov, which was changed to "Chmielnicki" in honor of the butcher who slaughtered Jews and Poles in 1648-49. One country's enemy is another country's hero. Go figure.

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They became citizens of Israel. Jewish immigrants to palestine were given travel documents by the british mandate authorities, but they weren't citizens of anything, because palestine wasn't a country, but a League of Nations Mandate since WW One when the Ottoman empire was broken up. Some of the countries that Jews came from maintained their citizenship, but not Soviet Russia where my mother's family came from. Once Israel declared independence, the Jews and Arabs living within Israel's borders became citizens of Israel.

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My mother was also "stateless" on her British travel papers. Her family moved from Ukraine (then Russia) to Palestine (then British) and they were listed as "stateless". And they really were stateless, till 1948.

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I agree on every point.
Where was your grandfather from?

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That sounds a bit too rosy. But there's no question that outside intervention was always distructive to Polish jewish relations. Czarist Russia used anti-semitism as a populist tool to manipulate Poles, Jews and Ukrainians (divide and rule). The Germans played the Poles and Ukrainians against eachother and against the jews so that everybody was fighting for his life at each other's expense.

Even in this forum there's more bickering between Poles and Jews (am I the only one here?) than there is blame put on the Germans. Maybe because it's so obvious.

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If you mean the earliest christians, then you are right. But at that point they were considered a heretical Jewish sect, not a separate religion. Paul was weeding out Jewish heretics. Most religions had little tolerance for heresy within their ranks. Christians, for example. Look at Jan Huss. Look at the Inquisition.

If Grzegorz's point is that Jews are no better than anyone else, then I am comforted by the fact that the example he brings is 2000 years old.

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Grzegorz,
I think you're facts are wrong.
1. First of all the early Christians were persecuted by the Romans throughout the empire, not by the Jews. By the time the Christians became a separate religion, the Jews were not in a position to persecute anyone. It was long after the temple was destroyed and after the Bar Kochba rebellion was crushed.

2. There is a low grade war going on for 100 years between Jews and Arabs over this country. The palestinians in the "territories" are fighting a war against us using rockets and bombs and guns. We are defending ourselves against that, and so people sometimes get killed. The palestinian minority that lives within Israel is not persecuted or killed. They vote, have equal political rights and practice their religion freely. You can see them on any israeli street, shopping, dining, going to school just like anyone else.

Considering the war we have going on with their brothers and the hostility of the Arab world around us, I think we're doing a pretty good job respecting their civili rights. We're not perfect, but we're better than many other countries. I don't know if that makes us "morally superior" and I don't care. If anyone wants to dislike us, they'll find reasons. They always have.

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A few examples off hand:
the spanish inquisition, the crusades (Jews were massacred by local crusaders in the rhineland well before they came anywhere near the muslim enemy), the massacre at Cliffords Tower in York in 1190, various Easter day pogroms such as Kishinev in 1903. That kind of thing.

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Rape and plunder are more an issue of battlefield ethics (or lack of ethics).
My point was more about execution of civilians for religious "crimes" not in time of war.
I was trying to reassure Joepilsudski who seemed concerned about his personal safety.

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What we call the noachide laws are the commands given by God to Noah after the flood. They are as follows:

Do not murder.
Do not steal.
Do not worship idols.
Do not be sexually immoral.
Do not eat a limb removed from a live animal.
Do not curse God.
Set up courts and bring offenders to justice.

Since we believe all mankind is decended from Noah, we believe that these laws are binding to all mankind and are the basis of civil society. But we don't care one way or the other what religions non-Jews take for themselves. In answer to your question, which I hope wasn't facetious: Most Jewish legal authorities do not consider Christianity to be idolatry, and certainly don't consider Islam to be idolatry. We don't believe in these religions and Jews are forbidden to practice them, but we don't mind if non-Jews practice them. The penalties for idol worship referred to the foreign cults that threatened the Jewish religion in ancient Israel such as Ba'al worship. From the time of the Romans the Jewish courts had no juristicion over things like that and I know of no case where anyone was put to death for worshiping idols after biblical times, certainly no christian, since we were no longer soveriegn when the christian religion came into being.

So instead of bringing up a theoretical situation (of you being executed for idolatry) I would rather point out that untold numbers of Jews were put to death by christians for not being christian, from the middle ages onward till the 20th century.

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No, I haven't switched them around. These are well-known terms, and people still wear these hats in certain parts of Israel and in some neighborhoods of New York. But you're right, that one would think that the wide hat is a spodek. My great-grandfather had a workshop in Jerusalem back in the 1920s that manufactured these kind of hats, and my mother remembered helping him as a little girl, matching up the pelts.

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That's the round fur hat, usually made of beaver pelts. The Spodek is a taller narrower shape, and the Shtreimel is wider and lower.

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  shtreimel.jpg
  
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  Spodik.jpg