History / Why did communism in Poland fail? [180]

It does appear that during this period 'licences' drove the economic value (Grubas, did you have expereince of this?) and a thriving black market worked well. Yet, for some sectors the 80's was a hard time.

It would appear to me as an external observer to this that a localised revolution became a populist movement which in itself was unopposed by a largely satisfied/ambivalent majority.

I do remember watching Lech Walesa on the BBC though.... but of course we're really talking about a benelovent/ambivalent dictatorship deposed for democracy...

when the workers get angry watch out... unless they're miners in the UK.

History / Why did communism in Poland fail? [180]

very true indeed. revolution is just that. a circular motion back to the start. Is Poland not getting back to its routes as the centre of economic and thought expansion within central Europe perhaps?

History / Why did communism in Poland fail? [180]

The civil unrest in the middle east is now a bench mark for a discussion on the generic failure of totalitariansim (see earlier post which describes the ideological indifference of dictatorship).

My point with reference to CEO's behaving like dictators is that in some cases they seem to suffer swift (and sometimes unmeritted) punishment whereas dictators ignoring human rights often live longer, freer lives.

Hence to middle eastern experience today serves as a live environment to witness how society deals with human rights abusers versus those of stock holders.

And if you're interested, I saw the abuses of stockholder values at both WorldCom and Enron. Staggering.

If we dealt with dictators as well as we deal with (most) of the stockholder abusers perhaps the world might be better.... it might be of course a good deal worse.

You might also perceive a Lockean style universal rebellion of the people which you may also draw a comparison with Lech Walesa but also in tandem with the other excellent posts on this topic as well as my own tangent earlier.

History / Why did communism in Poland fail? [180]


I always like this debate. I worked at WorldCom as am account manager for Enron! Those guys are still in jail. Let's see how the middle east works out....

History / Why did communism in Poland fail? [180]

Communism or the version of political governance seen in Poland in the post war period failed for a number of reasons. Without wishing to to run down worn routes of endemic systemic failure (as we all know inevitability is a falacy of the retrospective) I'd prefer to review two perspectives of people close to my heart.

One being my grandmother who went to her grave believing the UK labour party were none but socialists in a different skin and a former senior Reuters man and Poland-a-phile the late Chris Catlin who believed in Poland's immense potential and ran many schemes to bring the UK and Poland closer together.

Poland is geographically placed for political advantage against the former (?) soviet states. It was this geographical location that served to effect my grand mother's view ont he world. A political prisoner in a Siberian Goulag she witnessed the death of her children among others and on return to Poland was expelled by the Nazis. However, her long lasting distrust was always against perception of communist dicatatorship (I acknowedge to other Political scientists the very nature of dictatorship, benevolent or otherwise, is only ideologically relevant when confronted with internal or external opposition).

My grandmother's view of the socialists/communists (i'm not sure she was particularly drawn on a proto Marxist socialist definition of left wing dictatorship or a more loose left wing notion of socialism - again we can ignore the shades of definition here) was essentially born out of the view, if you'll forgive the vernacular, that they are "bullshitters" - thriving on giving the people a world of (perceived) choice within boundaries and seemingly endless resource. I say she was right about Tony Blair et al - a credit boom to disguise excessive spending. Thusly the ultimate end for spend without resource is.... bankruptcy. Smart lady my granny (Szym)Borska (a Bielska by birth incidentially)

The second view also is indebted to Poland's geographical position. Chris and other's I've interviewed in my time (within the UK FCO) have often referred to the buffer status Poland endures/enjoys. In essence the interest in Poland means like a bank (!, but with more integrity!!) it is far too big a deal to fail. As such, the winning side would always ensure that Uncle Lech et al would receive the support they needed.

Anyway, just a couple of points in a very interesting debate.