Life / I'm British in Poland and I think that it's time to go back to the UK! [240]


I would agree with you on most points but I still don't think those 20 years made a great difference in the way people approached officialdom. Even if Polish bureacracy during 1918-1939 was dramatically different from the oppresive bureacracies imposed by the occupants, my argument about the way people perceived the official-citizen relationship still stands. In my opinion twenty years was too short an intermission for the new ideas to really sink in. You can see how slowly things are changing now even though it's been almost 20 years since the fall of communism. Now you might object that we haven't really done away with communist ways, but there it is: old habits die hard. Besides, we haven't even had a proper decommunisation .

Life / I'm British in Poland and I think that it's time to go back to the UK! [240]


As most theories, they are based on fairly sweeping genarilisations and don't explain everything, but I think they do explain the contrast between British and Polish bureaucratic realities. Clearly, any bureaucracy serves primarily itself, but in Poland people have been trodden upon so long (since the Partitions) that it has become part of the culture, the way things are done here. People think it can't be helped. I'm sure most British bureaucrats don't see themselves as eager servants of the citizen, but the difference is that the British citizens will not accept the situation that the Polish ones think as normal or at least unavoidable.


I didn't refer to the Byzantine empire, I meant it as a common adjective meaning "highly complicated, intricate, involved, labirinthine etc". It is true the Russians claimed (and still do) to be the heirs of Byzantium, the third Rome, but I don't know if they specifically modelled their bureaucracy on Byzantium


I agree Mongols or Tartars might have more to do with it than Byzantium, but I'm out of my depth here. One might also add the Chinese imperial model of bureaucracy into the equation, as a main inspiration of the Mongols. Without delving into detailed historical analyses, I would say that Polish bureaucracy resembles the Eastern models rather than the Western ones.


Obviously you're employed to serve your employer. When I said you're meant to serve the citizen I spoke about the expectations of citizens, who are after all the employers of the legislative bodies and governments. In Poland I think most people don't even realise they are indirect employers of officials.


Daisy, that's the whole problem here: rules and regulations are changed every year and they're so vague or contradictory nobody really knows what they mean - you're entirely at the mercy of individual bureaucrats and their interpretations. I think, given the choice, most people in Poland would gladly opt for rules "set in stone 150 years ago" rather than what we've got.

Life / I'm British in Poland and I think that it's time to go back to the UK! [240]

I can well imagine a shock a Brit must feel when confronted with Polish bureaucracy. British bureaucratic culture is based on the assumption that legal requirements should be kept to an essential minimum and officials are meant to serve the citizen. In Poland it's quite the opposite. The greatest influence on the present-day Polish bureaucratic environment were the oppressive, Byzantine bureaucracies of the three occupants Prussia, Austria (see Kafka's 'The Trial') and especially Russia in the 19 c. You will still find the same situation in Russia - and in most post-communist countries, I suppose. Here a citizen is a humble supplicant who approaches the official, cap in hand, and must hope for his good mood. My blood pressure rises whenever I must take care of anything official and I find it difficult not to get into quarels with the staff. Perhaps, as a native I should be immune to this environment, but I'm not.

Genealogy / Some Macedonian, Croatian, Serbian Second Names look Polish! [38]

Those surnames may look similar but their origin and meaning is probably different. Polish names ending in -ski were originally names belonging to noblemen whose family owned a certain village or town. For example somebody whose family were lords of a Dąbrowa village would bear the name of Dąbrowski. In Poland there was no primogeniture which meant that not just the first son but all children were considered noblemen and inherited their father's noble surname, even if they did not inherit his property. That's why the class of noblemen in Poland was very numerous (about 10% of all citizens at its peak). However only part of them could be described by the English term "landed gentry". In the 19th centrury when Poland was occupied by its neighbours (Russia, Prussia and Austria) the occupants allowed some people to change their names to make them sound more noble by adding the -ski suffix. It concerned a limited number of job-related surnames, such as Kowal (blacksmith) or Ślusarz (locksmith). That's how such popular Polish surnames as Kowalski or Ślusarski emerged. Finally, also some polonised Jews decided to change their original names to Polish-sounding ones and then they frequently derived them from the names of cities where they lived. You may remember Max Bialystock from the hilarious comedy by Mel Brooks but it was more common to add -ski to the name of the city. Hence such names as Warszawski (Warszawa) or Lubelski (Lublin). Nowadays, you can change your surname if your present one is clearly derogative (I know a girl whose name is Oszust - a cheat/lier - she would certainly qualify;). Obviously, such people change their names to good-sounding ones such as Orłowski, Orzelski, Sokołowski etc. (but they're not allowed to use historical names, such as Sobieski or Zamoyski).

Now, as to Macedonian names I'd be delighted to find out the facts from a Macedonian. However, it seems to me their surnames are derived from the name of the family progenitor. For example, Stojanovski, Jovanovski, Todorovski, Stefanovski = the son of a Stojan, Jovan, Todor, Stefan, respectively. Surnames derived from the progenitor's name are also common in Poland but we created them by adding the -czyk or -czak suffix. For instance, a surname derived from the name of Stefan would be Stefańczyk or Stefańczak. If you came across the name of Stefanowski or Stefański in Poland, it would be derived from the name of a village/town Stefanowo or Stefanów (which in turn must have been derived from the name Stefan).