Language / A typical quality of book translation from English to Polish? [28]

I'll add a curiosity on the word ceber: it is the oldest recorded Polish word. It is recorded in the form czebri in a text from 1118. cz then changed to c.

Sources: Aleksander Brückner, Słownik etymologiczny języka polskiego
Stanisław Westfal, The Polish Language

Real Estate / Polish system for flats/apartments. Owner have to pay a rent? [11]


Thank you, inkrakow. But surely you should also pay 5 , the "pure" rent, woudn't you?

I am perplexed because I was told that in "council" estates if you don't own the flat you pay so many złoty per month, and that, were you to purchase it, you would still have to pay that many złoty per month. My guess is that the bulk of what one's pays each month is made up mainly by 1-2, so that paying or not 5 to the council doesn't make much difference overall.

Does this make sense? Or am I missing something?

Real Estate / Polish system for flats/apartments. Owner have to pay a rent? [11]

Let me try to get this right. This how I see things. The following things may need to be paid:

1) Utility bills (water, gas, electricity, telephone...)

2) Ordinary maintenance of the block (cleaning of common areas, repairs, administration costs,...)

3) In the UK most flats are leaseholds. This (roughly!) means that, a), the landlord has "ownership" over the flat only for a limited, but possibly very long, period of time (e.g., 100 years) and, b), that he or she has to pay a "ground rent" to the "real" owner (the freeholder).

4) In the UK most people who are not students need to pay a tax to the town council the live in (Council Tax).

5) If you don't own the flat you live in you pay a rent to the landlord. The rent may automatically include some of the costs of points 1-4.

Which of these points apply to Polish flats? Is there something alike the ground rent of point 3?
Thanks!

Language / Google translate thinks a Polish car is a baby? Bing example. [12]

That's it! Very singular, isn't it? (BTW, I find google translate just amazing. Automatic translation has always been a hugely difficult problem but now it's really beginning to become useful!)

Language / Google translate thinks a Polish car is a baby? Bing example. [12]

jump_bunny: try this

translate.google.co.uk/translate_t?hl=&ie=UTF-8&text=Auto+jest+u+mojeg o+taty&sl=pl&tl=en#

I get "Baby is with my dad"

Language / Polish locative and case declensions [16]

Hi Darevon,
What you've put together is a truly impressive and comprehensive piece of work!
However, if I make make a comment (not a criticism!), some of the feature you listed are the consequences of some general Polish rules, which are not specific to the locative case.

Of course what you've done is not wrong, and it's always nice to write down things in full, but it also renders the discussion more complicated than it might otherwise be...

I'll quote some of the features you listed, making a few comments.
Again, this is not a criticism. I hope these remarks may be of use in rationalising the rules.
I'll use these acronyms: H=hard; S=soft; HNV=hard non-velar; HV= hard velar [i.e., k,g,ch]; PS=phonetic ["true"] soft; HS=historical soft



The alternation i/y is regular and always present: HNV and HS want -y, HV and PS want -i.
This means that in Polish the sounds (say) ń+y, c+i cannot occur, ever. It's always ń+i, c+y (and so on).


This kind of behaviour, and similar ones like miasto->mieście, are necessary to respect the Polish phonotactic rule which says consonants in the same sillable must be all soft or all hard.

Softening of the final n to ń induces the softening of the preceding consonant to respect the rule... there's really no other possibility...


Neuter nouns ending in ę (and often referring to the young of animals etc.) acquire a further syllable in all cases different from nominative. Latin names in -um are invariable in the singular. So there's no irregularity of any kind here.


Of course this a general orthographic rule: the sound ć+vowel is spelled ci+vowel, always.
I won't comment here on the vowel alternation but them too are (to an extent) predictable: e.g. ó in closed syllables, o in open syllables; e.g. take gwóźdź->gwoździu (nail). The nominative is a single-syllable word and hence a closed syllable. The locative is gwo-ździu: open syllable and alternation to o. The same occurs e.g. in the genitive sing. (Kraków->Krakowa), genitive pl. (słowo->słów) etc.

If it is possible to assume that general phototactic/orthographic rules like the ones above have been acquired, the locative case rules can be stated in a much more compact way:

MASC,NEU, FEMM -HNV => '-e
MASC,NEU -HV or -S => -u
FEMM, -HV => '-e
FEMM, -S => -i/-y
Where the apostrophe ' indicates softening/vowel alternation (if relevant). The rest are details :)

Anyway, congratulations again on the job you've done :-)

Language / Why in the world there are three ways to write simple U ?!?! [54]


they do sound very similar but they are different. E.g. go to ivona.com, select Jacek and try "za pół roku" vs "za pu roku"


yes, I'd imagine you'd be understood, because it's a small mispronunciation


if you are honest maybe, but if you have Polish-tuned ears you hear główny /gwuvnI/. It's about the same difference as in English "swoop" vs "soup"


even if you were right it would hardly be a simplification. It'd make the ł:l and ó:o alternation unpredictable.

Language / Which is the BEST, EASIEST to learn & most helpful"POLISH FOR FOREIGNERS"course? [32]


I too bought Polish in 4 Weeks and I think it's a very good course, particularly oriented towards self-study. However, as SzwedwPolsce said, unless you have an outstanding determination and willpower it'll take much more than a month to assimilate it!

The book tells two intertwining story in a soap-opera-like manner. The dialogues and situations seem to be practical and "realistic", that is not as contrived as textbook dialogues often are.

The audio recordings are of high quality; a funny thing is that, as the number of the voice actors is limited (about 6 I think) sometimes the same voice is given to different characters. Nothing wrong with that of course, only one woman of the series, Basia, has a very characteristic, cracked voice and it is funny to hear her turning up from time to time as estate agent, cashier, random pedestrian etc. :-)

I must also say that, at times, I was surprised by some twists of the story itself. Thinking about it, I found them slightly politically-incorrect for a textbook. This is not a criticisms, only I was left wondering if the book reflects a slightly different perception of some things or if it is just all due to the soap-opera quality of the story. Or maybe it's just me...

I'll give some examples (don't read if you don't want spoilers!).
The main characters at the beginning of the story are:
-Alice, about 25, American journalism student living in Warsaw. [she speaks perfect Polish, being American is a pretext to allow some kinds of questions]. She has got a boyfriend called Andrzej.

-Basia, about 25, Alice's best friend and co-tenant.
-Waldek, about 30, radio journalist and new acquaintance of Alice's who's trying to win her heart.
-John Brown, half-Scottish/half-Polish 40-year-old entrepreneur who grew up in the UK and has now gone back to live in Poland.

Here are some of the surprising bits:

-When Alice tell Basia of having met Waldek, Basia asks what kind of car had he got, because "ma dobry samochód, to znaczy że ma pieniądze!"

-Waldek begins a relentless (and ultimately successful) courtship on Alice: restaurants, theatre shows, trips to Kraków etc, all this behind Andrzej's back. Alice complains with Waldek that Andrzej works a lot and doesn't always have time to take her to discos. Big mistake! Waldek is all to happy to seize the opportunity...

-After a row Andrzej tries to make up with Alice with some surprise cinema tickets but Alice coldly dismisses him on the phone saying she can't go bacause she's going away with a "friend" (Waldek). Andrzej asks who it is but she just hangs the phone on him! This is the last we hear from Andrzej.

-That old fox of John Brown tries to hit on Basia at a local bar. Basia understands the situation immediately and is all to happy to be picked up by the (presumably) wealthy businessman. To justify the 15 year gap with Alice she says that after all "zrozumiałam, że najbardziej podobają mi się dojrzali mężczyźni"!

Comments? Personally I found the story line entertaining, better than the usual dull "The pen is on the table" texts for beginners.

Language / Polish nouns of unpredictable gender [50]


Thank you for your corrections Ziemowit. As I said I based my list on the PWN-Oxford dictionary which isn't as accurate as one may wish. I guess some feminine words may be missing from my list because they are listed as masculine in the dictionary!


Well, yes :-)
Given that myśleć=to think, przemyśleć=to think over, myśl=thought then surely przemyśl has got to mean reflection and be the same gender as myśl... but neither supposition is true :-)


Well, Kraków and Rzeszów are masculine are masculine so that's what I'd guess at first.
Also, in my list above all feminine words in -ew and not in -ów... so I'd again guess Ostrów to be masculine.

I then turned to Święty Google i Święta Wikipedia... The latter says there are more then 40 cities/towns/hamlets/islands called Ostrów... do they all have the same gender?

A brutal search effort gives:
"do Ostrowa" vs "do Ostrowi" vs "do Ostrowii" 12,900 vs 9,110 vs 4,040 mmmm!
Let's try something more unambiguous
"jechać do Ostrowa" vs "jechać do Ostrowi" vs "jechać do Ostrowii" 29,100 vs 8 vs 3 ... that's more decisive but the numbers don't add up with the previous search!

One more go:
"z Ostrowem" vs "z Ostrową" vs "z Ostrowią" 53,100 vs 0 ??? vs 11,500 mmmmmm again! google seems to consider ą=a at least at times, which is very bad for this. However many hits do correspond to "z Ostrowią" !

Okay, that's enough, let me look at this huge
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miasta_w_Polsce_(statystyki)
Wikipedia page in detail...
Ooh, I get it now! Some Ostrow's are masculine and some feminine! There are 3 Ostrów's which make it be be miasta: Ostrów Wielkopolski (72,368), Ostrów Mazowiecka (22,517) and Ostrów Lubelski (2,224). As the accompanying adjective testifies Ostrów Mazowiecka is unmistakably FEMININE! That also explains the random results with Google.

Wikipedia again says
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Ostrowi_Mazowieckiej

Zaczynając od wieku XV kiedy to nazwa brzmiała Ostrowo, w akcie lokacyjnym Ostrowya 1434, poprzez Ostrowia, wieku XIX miasto zwano Ostrów Mazowiecki, Ostrów £omżyński lub Ostrów w ziemi łomżyńskiej, w okresie międzywojennym używano dwóch nazw mianowicie: Ostrowia Mazowiecka i Ostrów Mazowiecki. W grudniu 1926 Ministerstwo Spraw Wewnętrznych przyjęło nazwę zaproponowaną przez językoznawcę - profesora doktora Kazimierza Nitscha - Ostrów Mazowiecka.

Posterity is left wondering how much beer the excellent professor had had before taking the historic decision...

That was an evil tricky question Ziemowit :-)

Hi,
I re-wrote the list of feminine zero-ending nouns adding a translation and grouping words in categories.
I put some words which seem to me to stand out for importance in bold. Of course, there's some abritrariety in this. I hope it helps.

ANIMALS, PLANTS,FOOD (30 words)
sólsalt
myszmouse
gęśgoose
marchewcarrot
gałąźbranch (of tree)
płećsex (=gender, for people and animals)
pleśń mould (fungi)
wesz louse
smycz leash
uwięź tether
rzodkiew radish
jabłoń apple tree
pieczeń roast (food)
latorośl vine; offspring
winorośl vine
paproć fern (plant)
zdobycz quarry (prey)
uprząż harness (horses)
klacz mare
spadź honeydew (from flowers etc)
barć hollow in a tree where bees live
twardziel hardwood (duramen)
brukiew swede (cabbage)
żagiew firebrand; kind of mushroom
trzebież forest thinning, extermination
płoć roach (fish)
nać top (of carrot or vegetables)
odrośl offshoot; sucker (of plant, eg ivy)
troć sea trout
wić twig

ABSTRACT OR GENERAL THINGS(26 words)
rzeczthing
mocpower
wszechmoc omnipotence
niemoc impotence
przemocviolence
pomochelp
samopomoc self-help
myślthought
kradzieżtheft
chęćwillingness
przyjaźńfriendship
więźbond (of love, friendship)
rozpaczdespair
dal distance
słodycz sweetness
gorycz bitterness
bojaźń fear, awe
odsiecz relief
wilgoć dampness
rozkosz bliss
woń fragrance
kaźń torment
piędź span
straż guard (to be on -)
rzeź slaughter
podaż supply (economics)

PHYSICAL SIZE, GEOGRAPHICAL FEATURES (17 words)
przestrzeńspace
czasoprzestrzeń spacetime
wieśvillage, countryside
podróżtrip, journey
darń turf
krawędź edge (of coin, table..)
przełęcz pass (of a mountain)
grań ridge (mountain)
perć mountain path
płacheć patch (land etc.)
połać stretch (of land, etc)
przystań harbour
kipiel surf (waves breaking)
otchłań abyss
topiel deep waters; whirpool
toń the depths (sea), abyss
rubież frontier (esp. in military jargon)

ANATOMICAL PARTS, MEDICINE(16 words)
twarzface
krewblood
półkrew half-blood
dłońpalm (of hand)
pierśbreast, chest
breweyebrow
skroń temple (head)
zgorzel gangrene
narośl growth (of flesh etc.)
torbiel cyst (medicine)
kibić waist
żołądź glans (anatomy)
gardziel throat; narrow passage
goleń tibia (bone)
piszczel tibia (bone)
krtań larynx

"HOSTILE" WORDS (8 words)
brońweapon
pogoń pursuit, chase
swołocz scoundrel
waśń feud, quarrel
chorągiew flag
dzicz savage, barbarian
potwarz slander, calumny
grabież pillage, plunder

HOUSE-RELATED (8 words)
kąpielbath
poręcz railing, handrail
sień entrace hall
pościel bedclothes; bed
czeladź household servants
warząchew large wooden spoon
staroć antique
krokiew rafter (large sloping piece of wood which supporting a roof)

MATHS, SCIENCE, METALS (8 words)
ćwierćquarter (1/4)
miedźcopper (metal)
stalsteel
rtęćmercury (metal)
oś axis (maths)
macierz matrix (maths)
jaźń ego (psychology)
śniedź patina (eg on oxidated copper)

COLOURS (6 words)
czerńblack
bielwhite
zieleńgreen
czerwieńred
podczerwień infra-red
żółćyellow; bile (anatomy)

TIME PERIODS (6 words)
jesieńautumn
nocnight
dobranocgood-night
północmidnight, north
WielkanocEaster
równonoc equinox

VESSELS & LIQUIDS (7 words)
łódźboat
siećnet
cieczliquid
kadź vat, tub
stągiew vat, tub
konew large can (tin)
maź gunge, goo

WEATHER-RELATED (7 words)
powódź flood
zamieć snowstorm
sadź hoarfrost
szadź hoarfrost
gołoledź black ice (ice on roads)
szreń snow crust
odwilż thaw, melt (snow, ice)

DERIVATIVES OF THE VERB SPRZEDAĆ (5 words)
sprzedażsale, selling
wyprzedażsales (promocja)
przedsprzedaż advance booking
odsprzedaż resale
rozprzedaż selling

DERIVATIVES OF THE VERB POWIEDZIEĆ ETC (5 words)
odpowiedźanswer
wypowiedź statement
zapowiedź announcement
podpowiedź hint
spowiedź confession

TEXTILE WORLD (5 words)
odzieżpiece of clothing
kieszeńpocket (trousers, jacket...)
nić thread
pilśń felt (hat etc.)
kądziel distaff (tool used in the past in the textile industry)

MISCELLANEOUS (14 words)
kolejrailway
baśńfairy tale
pieśń solemn song
pieczęć seal (on document)
żerdź perch, pole (for birds,drilling tools...)
dań gift
gładź smooth surface
obręcz hoop
mać mother (obsolete. Used only in curse words)
młodzież young people
gawiedź rout (crowd)
chuć sexual urge
Białoruś Belarus
cerkiew the Orthodox Church

Language / Polish nouns of unpredictable gender [50]


I must say when I put together my list I didn't make any effort in trying to take into account proper names (cities and countries). Wikisłownik says that the town you mention, Przemyśl (65238 citizens according to wikipedia) is, surprisingly, of MASCULINE gender! Looking at the Polish wikipedia article about it I inferred the following (regular) declension pattern:

NOM Przemyśl
GEN Przemyśla
DAT Przemyślowi
ACC Przemyśl
INST Przemyślem
LOC Przemyślu

I was wondering if Polish people not accustomed with the city could use the wrong gender... googling "w Przemyślu", the correct form, returns 263,000 hits while "w Przemyśli" 1,540, a ratio of 1:170 (not much). "do Przemyśla" vs "do Przemyśli" yields 22,600 vs 9... then no, they don't get it wrong :-)

Side note: Przemyśl has a final l and not ł; I think there exist a phonotactic rule which in some contexts (word final seems to be one of these) forces consonants in the same syllable to be all soft or all hard (=> śł isn't an allowed cluster in Polish).

Language / Polish nouns of unpredictable gender [50]

It's the CD-ROM version of the PWN-OXFORD Wielki słownik angielsko-polski i polsko-angielski which is advertised as The most comprehensive Polish and English dictionary available

pwn-oxford.pwn.pl
ukcatalogue.oup.com/product/academic/language/reference/dictionaries/bilingual/polish/9780198610755.do

It should be the biggest Polish<->English dictionary, perhaps together with the Kościuszko Foundation's one, but I'm not particularly impressed with it. Despite it's bulk it is certainly below par when compared with the best English<->Italian dictionaries. I was talking with a Polish NS and she didn't know many of the Polish proverbs and idioms listed, so I suppose they were either very old-fashioned or perhaps regional.

Language / Polish nouns of unpredictable gender [50]

Spurred by our previous discussion and having some free time in my hands I persused my PWN-Oxford dictionary with the aim of drawing up a definite list of feminine nouns ending with a consonant. For your joy, here's a detailed summary of my findings :-)

PRELIMINARY NOTE
Polish consonant sounds are customary labelled as hard or soft. Soft sounds are further classified as historical soft (also known as hardened or functionally soft) and phonetically (or "true") soft. "Softness" is the name traditional used in the Slavic grammatical tradition for "palatalisation".

I'll use this classification (slightly different ones are also in use, especially for l,j and ł, but for our purposes let's stick to this one):

Hard sounds are m, b, p, w, f, n, d, t, z, s, r, k, g, ch/h, ł
Historical soft sounds are c, dz, sz, rz/ż, cz, dż
True soft sounds are ź, ś, ć, dź, ń, j, l

Hard sounds (a part from ł) automatically soften if followed by "i". For s, z, n this gives the sounds ś,ź,ń. For the hard sounds m, b, p, w, f, d, t, r, k, g, ch/h there's no single symbol to write their corresponding soft sound and they cannot occur in word-final position. For our purposes we can write them as m', b' etc.

MAIN RULE 1
The final consonant of feminine, zero-ending words is ALWAYS a soft consonant, either historical or true soft (see note 1 and 2 below for some minor qualifications).

MAIN RULE 2
By far, the largest group of zero-ending feminine word is constituted by those ending in -ość, as already discussed. There are probably more than 3000 feminine words of this kind.

LIST OF WORDS
Excluding words ending in -ość, the total number of zero-ending feminine nouns I found is 171. Of these, I estimate only some 30-40 are actually worth remembering. All the others look very obscure and are probably hardly-ever used in most normal contexts.

Warning: there may be mistakes!

-ń : 34 / przestrzeń, broń, pieśń, kieszeń, zieleń, pieczeń, dłoń, przyjaźń, czerń, jesień, jabłoń, otchłań, pogoń, przystań, bojaźń, pilśń, pleśń, czerwień, grań, podczerwień, woń, baśń, czasoprzestrzeń, dań, darń, goleń, jaźń, kaźń, krtań, sień, skroń, szreń, toń, waśń

-ć : 23 (excluding those ending in -ść) sieć, nić, płeć, chęć, ćwierć, pieczęć, mać, kibić, żółć, płacheć [can also be masculine], połać, barć, chuć, nać, paproć, perć, płoć, rtęć, staroć, troć, wilgoć, zamieć, wić

-l : 21 / myśl, stal, sól, kąpiel, biel, dal, faul, zgorzel, latorośl, narośl, odrośl, piszczel [can also be masculine], pościel, torbiel, twardziel, diesel, gardziel, kądziel, kipiel, topiel, winorośl

-dź : 21 / The 10 listed by Derevon [BTW it's miedź, not międź and żołądź can also be masculine] + gładź, gołoledź, kadź, podpowiedź, czeladź, gawiedź, sadź, szadź, spadź, śniedź, żerdź

-ść : 20 (excluding those ending in -ość) / I won't list them as it makes more sense to cosider the -ść ending as feminine, as discussed in my previous post

-ż : 16 / The 6 listed by Derevon + kradzież, młodzież, odwilż, podaż, uprząż, grabież, odsprzedaż, przedsprzedaż, rozprzedaż, trzebież
-cz : 15 / rzecz, słodycz, obręcz, ciecz, gorycz, odsiecz, zdobycz, klacz, dzicz, poręcz, rozpacz, smycz, tucz, przełęcz, swołocz
-w' : 13 (see note1) / krew, półkrew, brew, marchew, konew, chorągiew, brukiew, cerkiew, krokiew, rzodkiew, stągiew, warząchew, żagiew
-c : 11 / moc, noc, pomoc + 8 compound words of these: dobranoc, północ, równoc, Wielkanoc; samopomoc; niemoc, przemoc, wszechmoc
-ź : 5 / maź, rzeź, gałąź, uwięź, więź
-ś : 5 / pierś, oś, gęś, wieś, Białoruś
-sz : 3 / mysz, wesz, rozkosz
-rz: 3 / twarz, potwarz, macierz
-j: 1 / kolej

There are no feminine words ending in either -dz or -dż, which are the only soft consonant endings not represented in the list.

NOTE 1
In my list there appear 13 words ending in -ew, and w is apparently a hard consonant. This seems to contradict MAIN RULE 1 above. However, there's a way out. This kind of situation is rationalised in Ron F. Feldstein's free Polish grammar (he's talking about the masculine word "paw" =peacock):

QUOTE
Notice that the stem-final of paw is structurally soft, palatalized [w'], but that it hardens in final position, which happens to be the dictionary and usual citation form. It would be more accurate to represent the stem as paw'-.

UNQUOTE


This discussion also helps in making some sense of the different behaviour of the words you quote. Krew is feminine and thus must ends in -w' and we expect -wi- to appear in other cases, -wi- being the only way to write w'. On the other hand zalew is masculine and ends in a hard w, so no "intrusive" i ever appears.

Compare:
NOM SING/PLUR krew/krwie | zalew/zalewy
GEN SING/PLUR krwi/krwi | zalwu/zalewów
DAT SING/PLUR krwi/krwiom | zalwowi/zalewom
ACC SING/PLUR krew/krwie | zalew/zalewy
INST SING/PLUR krwią/krwiami | zalewem/zalewami
LOC SING/PLUR krwi/krwiach | zalewie/zalewach
VOC SING/PLUR krwi/krwie | zalewie/zalewy

There doesn't seem to be any femine word ending in other softened hard sounds like m', b', p' etc.
I do not know if there are masculine nouns ending in softened sounds like -w'.

NOTE 2
It may be possible to come across semi-assimilated feminine foreign words which may end in a hard consonant: e.g., Wenus (planet and goddess), biznesswoman, call girl. These are invariable for all cases, so they arise no problems.

Okay, this is all. I guess many hoped the situation to be a bit simpler, but that's the way it is... Anyway, all in all, it's not too bad. In other languages such as French or Italian for many words there's just no way to tell if they're feminine or masculine, so Polish isn't doing too bad after all.

I guess it would make sense to create a compact list containing only useful words and excluding derivate words (if noc is feminine, so should be północ, ect.)

Lorenc

P.S.
The PWN dictionary reports "defekt", "tapir (fryzura)","babiniec" as feminine but I think they're mistakes (I cross-checked on wikisłownik). Who knows how many other mistakes there are in this dictionary...

Language / Polish nouns of unpredictable gender [50]

I had written a very detailed reply yesterday but, *very* irritatingly, it seems to have been lost in transit :-(
Here's a condensed version.

We stated that words ending in -ść are FEMININE, with (essentially) only 3 exceptions: gość, liść, teść.

Words ending in -ć (excluding those in -ść) can be either feminine or masculine.
I counted on the PWN dictionary 23 feminine words ending in -ć and 21 masculine.

In particular, of the 21 masculine 18 end in -eć (also feminine nouns can end in -eć so there's no rule here).
The three that don't are:
zięć -> son-in-law
papuć -> (colloquial) slipper
turkuć [podjadek] -> mole cricket
I think in most contexts we can forget about the last one.

Here are the remaining -eć ending ones I found, more or less in order of google hits on google.pl (I did a quick search to see if these words are used at all):

kapeć ->slipper; flat tyre
łapeć /albo/ papeć /albo/ papuć -> slipper
pypeć [np., na języku] -> pip (medicine) ; also: (colloquial) ->blotch/mole;
śmieć -> scum; piece of rubbish
cieć (colloquial,offensive) ->caretaker, janitor
paznokieć ->nail
wiecheć -> bunch (e.g., of flowers) [can also be a family name]
dziegieć -> wood tar [can also be a family name]
rupieć -> piece of junk
kmieć (dated) ->peasant/yeoman [can also be a family name]
berbeć (colloquial) ->toddler
kłykieć /lub/ knykieć -> knuckle
kopeć -> soot,lampblack [can also be a family name]
urwipołeć (colloquial,humorous) -> imp
spłacheć (dated) ->piece
płacheć (dated or dialectal) ->patch

If I have time I'll make a list of the corresponding -ć ending feminine nouns.
Anyhow, even if it can be fun to make such lists (yes, some people have a very special idea of fun :) I don't think anyone should make an effort to remember these mostly rarely-used words...


you're right, kość is indeed a feminine noun, but it does not decline as gość, which is masculine (and virile). Kość declines near-regularly (*) following the pattern of feminine words ending in a consonant cluster with a final soft consonant (admittedly, a very specific pattern :-).

(*) It's only irregularity is that its instrumental plural is kośćmi and not the expected (wrong) "kościami" (gość does the same, as does a small group of soft-ending words).

BTW, I'll also mention that some online Polish dictionary also provide a full declensor/verb conjugator which is often a real godsend! See e.g.:

Oscar Swan's Polish dictionary polish.slavic.pitt.edu/~swan/beta/
Wiksłownik
pl.wiktionary.org/wiki

Słownik języka polskiego
sjp.pl
I'll also seize the opportunity to ask a related question... Do *all* zero-ending feminine words have the nominative plural in -i (instead of the regular -e)?

Lorenc

Language / Why in the world there are three ways to write simple U ?!?! [54]

I think the original poster is just looking for a flame war. His "arguments" are preposterous. As it has been discussed not long ago in another thread, the Polish spelling system is really not to bad, especially in the "written word -> sound" direction where it's almost always unambiguous. I wonder where the original poster is from to be in a position to criticize... he doesn't seem to be a native English speaker.


This is just not true, English is a hell but certainly not Polish. It is pretty straightforward to read.


but... shouldn't people be nice at Christmas time? Do you really believe what you say?

Language / Polish nouns of unpredictable gender [50]

Hi Derevon,
as far as I know (or as little as I do) your rules are essentially correct, but some further qualifications can be given...

MASCULINE vs FEMININE
1) Words ending in a hard consonant are always masculine. All the female nouns ending with a consonant end in a soft or functionally soft (aka hardened) consonant (BTW you can add myśl to your list).

2) There are many words ending with the -ść cluster [which corresponds to English -ness], often indicating abstract things: miłość, jasność, wolność and many others. As a rule they are FEMININE. I did a search on the electronic version of the PWN dictionary and I found only 4 masculine nouns ending in -ść, + 3 more which are honorific titles and can be either masculine or feminine (presumably hardly ever used). These are:

gość (guest), liść (leaf), teść (father-in-law), ekspansywność (expansiveness, probably rarely used)
Honorific titles:
mość (~Lordship or something)
jegomość (~Lordship/reverend or something)
przewielebność (most reverend, for bishops etc)

I don't think you can state any rule for the simple ending -ć (/=-ść). Always using the electronic PWN dictionary I counted 23 feminine words with this ending and 21 masculine, so in this case it seems to be a 50% thing.

NEUTER
The regular ending for neuter nouns is -o and this is also the only possible one if the consonant before the final vowel is hard.

There are only ~48 neuter words ending in ę, of which ~25 indicate the youngs of animals and many others are otherwise agriculture-related: e.g. cielę (calf), prosię (piglet), jagnię (lamb/kid), pisklę (chick), źrebię (foal)...

These neuter -ę ending words are notable because they acquire a further syllable in all cases different from nominative. The extra syllable is -eń- (singular) / -on- (plural) for names in -mię, otherwise it's -ęć-/-ęt- (possibly there are exceptions).

e.g.
imię NOM SING
imienia GEN SING
imieniu DAT SING
imię ACC SING
imieniem INST SING
imieniu LOC SING
imię VOC SING

imiona NOM PLUR
imion GEN PLUR
imionom DAT PLUR
imiona ACC PLUR
imionami INST PLUR
imionach LOC PLUR
imiona VOC PLUR

I hope it helps.