Law / Family law in Poland - want the Polish children back to the Irish courts [53]

Quite scary opinions of the Polish courts. I don't want to put my kids through being grabbed by someone and taken. Very distressing for them. The kids were taken last Saturday. I had served her with a summons for a guardianship hearing 3 days prior. So far I have sent all required documents to the central authority here in Ireland, I was only able to provide the block number and external door of her parents address using street view, I don't know the apartment number. There are probably 20 apartments using that entrance.

I am named as father on their birth certs, I have no chance to pay maintenence yet, it has not yet been a week and I have no contact, I believe she is at her parents house in Slaskie.

I'm not confident in my chances using the hague convention but it is worth a try. I appreciate the offers of legal help but the hague convention appears to be pretty clear cut, they will either apply it as it should be applied or it will fail. They will be sent home or something else will be decided. I have to wait for papers to be shuffled and no doubt it will be well into february by then due to christmas. I am in court here in January so I see no issue in having a guardianship order in place before anything comes to court in Poland, especially if she fails to show up here and I tell the judge she fled.

Has anyone any actual stories of similar cases and how they have worked out.

If I'm honest, skype and the odd visit would be a great start. It would be an amazing improvement on the situation I am in now.

Law / Family law in Poland - want the Polish children back to the Irish courts [53]

Thanks for the replies guys.

She has taken everything and cancelled all the utilities on the house, electric, internet, bins etc. So this demonstrates her intentions. The Hague convention documents are received in Dublin, I sent it all registered post. Emailed the required photos etc, so that is done. The kids have never been to Poland for Christmas, only summer holidays, they have their own individual Irish passports.

Ant63.
Thanks for the link to reunite, I will be reading all they have after I type this. I am currently off work sick on illness benefit so have had to apply for legal aid in both countries. My illness is partly the reason she fled.

I'm afraid she has some ammo regarding abusive behaviour. I have been an alcoholic 23 years, since I was a teenager, this came to a head 3 years ago when our relationship took a turn for the worst, we were fighting like cat and dog and one day when I was roaring drunk I pulled her by the hair. I was shocked at myself and I left the home right there and then, she applied for a barring order at that time. I spent some time living elsewhere and put myself through a residential treatment program. I came out sober, retrained in a new career as I worked in bars and our lives improved exponentially. No order was awarded. We were back together fairly soon and the next 3 years were excellent. We bought this house only 6 months ago and things were great between us. Then I became depressed, turns out that alcoholism wasn't my only issue, I have been diagnosed as being Bipolar, the doctor gave me anti depressants the first time I presented and they sent me crazy, (this is common in bipolar, it cases a hypomanic response)

I have a letter from the doctor confirming the misdiagnosis and reaction to wrong meds. I am now on the correct medication and the prognosis is good. Still, there was no abuse, there are a few text messages where I called her useless and a moron and that I wanted her to leave. (I didn't, my brain wasn't right.) That is all. They could be construed as abusive but there is no threat of violence and no violence involved.

I am not proud of myself, I had been a ****** partner for many years due to my alcoholism, I was never anything but a good father, I was abused as a child by my own father and it made me very aware of my responsibilities to my kids. I don't want to make her life unhappy, I don't bear her any ill will. This bipolar thing came out of left field, as far as I was concerned I had put my issues behind me after getting sober but apparently substance abuse goes hand in hand with bipolar. 3 months ago we were very happy, we just bought our first house and were in a better position than we had ever been in life, then the depression started.

My defence has to be honest, I will not falsify, garnish or twist the truth. I made great attempts to turn my life around and succeeded. I guess I have to hope that demonstrating my progress will be enough, I doubt it but I will have to live with whatever consequences I have brought upon myself. She is a good mother, I understand her need to do something as I was refusing to go back to work and telling her to leave. Since getting the right treatment I have taken steps to return to work and hope to do so in the new year.

Any idea how the polish courts will view this?

Law / Family law in Poland - want the Polish children back to the Irish courts [53]

@ironside

Never saw the point in getting married, we are not religious. With guardianship I have the same rights as a married man, without having to go through a 5 year process to get a divorce.

I am a recovered alcoholic and have not touched a drink in years. My underlying issue is a physiological disease that was undiagnosed and has a positive prognosis when treated correctly.

I can demonstrate great effort to deal with my issues and I do not pretend any different. Irish courts, like any sane person, would look at the work I have put in to resolve these problems over the last 3 years in a favorable light.

I am looking for help based on MY issue. I apologise if it does not fit into your preconceived viewpoint on who has rights to see their children but that is how it is.

Law / Family law in Poland - want the Polish children back to the Irish courts [53]

My apologies, I appreciate your input, I think I may have read more into your post than was intended. I am not expecting to get any concrete legal advice on here, I am getting lawyers in Poland and Ireland that will provide me with advice, I am using this forum for opinions and experience, I am trying to discern as much information as possible on the subject as I know nothing about it. I am also researching online, reading anything and everything regarding the subject to familiarise myself with the process.

I value honesty greatly, there is no point in me looking for information while claiming to be a glowing example of matrimony, I will hold my hands up to anything I have done wrong, it is probably not the best way to go about this but honesty is one of my redeeming features and I hope my honesty will stand me in good stead in court.

Regarding my personal problems, there is no person on this planet more fed up of them than me. I genuinely believed I had put these issues behind me 3 years ago. On a positive note, now I know what I am dealing with I can start dealing with it effectively. All I can do is be honest and show I am taking steps to rectify the issue and throw myself on the mercy of the courts.

The chips will fall where they fall I guess.

Law / Family law in Poland - want the Polish children back to the Irish courts [53]

@dolnoslask

I do hope we can reconcile, I love my partner and have been trying to make up for the years of alcoholism since getting treatment. I made great strides in that regard, right up until 2 months ago when this depression came like a ton of bricks from nowhere. Like I say, at least I now know how to deal with this and I am doing just that.

What you suggest is exactly what I am doing, I am having no joy in contacting her. I spoke to her sister but she is firmly on her side. I hope to return to work in the new year, I will go forward responsibly and try to show I am reliable, decent and stable under my new medication. I don't see this being an issue, I was all these things until this hit 2 months ago. I could not have been expected to deal with a medical issue I was not aware of having. How I proceed from here will show my metal as a man.

Reconciliation would be best for all and I am proceeding with this as my priority. So far I have sought treatment and am now medicated. I have taken measures to get back to my employment and am taking over all the bills here. She paid the bills I paid the mortgage. I have been in contact with a mens group that provide help with anger issues and will be voluntarily attending counselling. I am not really angry these days compared to when I was drinking but I will do anything to improve myself. I wanted to attend 3 years ago but there was no group in my locality, there is now.

I didn't really want to instigate Hague proceedings but without contact I thought it wise to get things moving as soon as possible. Just in case.

Thanks for your input.

@terri

Apologies, I had no intention to mislead. I am extraordinarily busy at the moment trying to get on top of many situations, I posted here as one line of enquiry. I did not intend to mislead or muddy the waters. As you can see, I have no issue with honesty. There is no point in asking for advice without the facts and I am providing those.

I know what you are saying about 10 years of sorrow. I have to hope that my behaviour in the preceeding 3 years will be recognised. I have always provided for my family, I have worked my ass off on this house since we bought it and kept a blog of all work I was doing. It is all dated and stamped. I pay the mortgage, I put down a hefty deposit. Proving my dedication is not an issue and I hope the previous years will be discounted on this basis, she stayed with me and was reaping the benefits.

Regarding not knowing, she was buying things for the house 2 days before my 7 year old said they were going to Poland. She denied this when asked. I wasn't sure but after thinking about it a few days and doing some research I decided the risk was too great and made an application to the court. I served her with the papers the next day, Wednesday. I tried to speak to her on Friday night about it and she just wanted me to sign the house into her name. Saturday morning she was gone. Less than a week from first suspecting.

As for how she can travel, Sexism, plain and simple. Everytime I travel alone with the children I am stopped and questioned, I am expected to have a document allowing me to travel from her. She travels freely and has for years without question. Just the way men are viewed it seems.

Thanks for the input. I hope this can be resolved simply, I don't look forward to the coming years if it is not. Even if things do not work out I suppose my son will come of an age soon where he will want an online presence. I will find a way to initiate contact if failed by the legal route. Not ideal, but at least better than days gone by. How people coped with these situations before the internet is beyond me.

Law / Family law in Poland - want the Polish children back to the Irish courts [53]

So she finally got in contact today, last night I sent her the tracking number for the hague convention documents so she could see it has been delivered to the department of justice. Today I got an email accusing me of all kinds of rubbish, a lot of it was clearly copied and pasted from some kind of domestic abuse website. Interesting development. I think I have a good defence against what she has written. I have responded offering third party mediation and pointing out the vague accusations are lies. I am trying to remain placatory but being called an abusive father is a bit much, she knows this is not true. She says the kids were neglected and suffering deprivation of their basic needs. Not sure where she is getting these ideas from, our kids are happy and want for nothing. I believe she is just giving some bluster and bluff due to finding out I was really going ahead with the legal avenue. She has opened a line of communication on her terms but no negotiating yet. I suppose this is a first step. I will not be dropping the Hague application until I see my kids back on Irish soil though.

I hope she starts coming to her senses soon. I am willing to do just about anything to see this sorted but not if I am going to have to face lies. I guess if she goes ahead with a plan to embellish this then it is going to be a lot more trouble. I am collecting any evidence I can and have started to write my version out. I will finish this and then go back through it bit by bit to see where I can perhaps find evidence to show my version is the truth.

Law / Family law in Poland - want the Polish children back to the Irish courts [53]

I tried calling her today again and she texted she would call me later. She didnt. I got a mutual friend to contact her and she said she has no problem with the kids talking to me. Yet she doesn't let them.

To answer the poster above. She has none of the evidence you mention because there has not been any issues with the kids. We started having issues end of September. There have been no issues with the kids since they were born except I failed to take them to school when I got depressed. The childminder was organised to take over. That's it. one day.

She may try to say the house is unsafe as we are in the middle of renovating. It was only supposed to take the summer but I found wet and dry rot so had to replace all the interior floors, woodwork and pipes under the concrete floor. What should have been a few weeks decorating turned into major building work. I did my best but it was too much to get done while they were on holiday. It is not ideal but is far from unsafe.

Most of this is due to the stress of the extra work. The engineers report on the house was good. The house was not. It was unexpected. Luckily I kept a blog of all the work and it shows what I was doing was justified. She said in the last email that I had 'destroyed the house'

Law / Family law in Poland - want the Polish children back to the Irish courts [53]

I have offered alternative accommodation and funds for this. Not sure on the use of polygraphs in court. I would welcome them if admissable. I'm afraid her parents will be happy to lie for her.

Law / Family law in Poland - want the Polish children back to the Irish courts [53]

I also have screenshots of her and her friend having a good laugh about me offering to sign over the house. They were emailing each other through my son's email account.

Law / Family law in Poland - want the Polish children back to the Irish courts [53]

All the rot is gone. I am in the process of laying flooring and skirting boards. It is not far from finished. She didn't want to get married for financial reasons.

Law / Family law in Poland - want the Polish children back to the Irish courts [53]

Lie detectors are not admissable in Irish court. Not sure about Poland which is where she would have to table the section 13b defence. I did a lot of reading of various case studies on the outcomes of said defence and am confident she hasn't a hope. Standard of proof is high and if she tries using the 'come to harm' defence due to the house renovations then it is well established in previous cases that if the children were in that situation before abduction and came to no harm then the risk of harm is not a viable defence. I'm quietly confident.

Law / Family law in Poland - want the Polish children back to the Irish courts [53]

Spoke to a friend in Poland. He called her and is going over tomorrow. She has told him she will let me talk to the kids while he is there. Fingers crossed. Some progress. She will be listening in so not ideal. I will take what I can get for now.