UK, Ireland / Pakis VS Poles in the UK [62]


I've never noticed urządniki working particularly hard.


Let's say you're a building worker. You're earning a good wage. You've got a mortgage and family to support. Then someone offers to do your work at half the price you were paid. Happy?

UK, Ireland / Pakis VS Poles in the UK [62]


Skilled building workers don't normally work for minimum wage in the UK. But plenty from outside the UK are more than happy to do so. Employers will take them on, not necessarily because they are harder working or more highly skilled, but simply because they are cheaper.

I'm not focussing my anger on anyone btw. I don't see the need to get angry. Better to look, listen, learn and try to understand the points of view of others.

History / Polish hatred towards Jews... [1290]


May I take the liberty of summarising your post in a short, succinct sentence.

"We were always good and everyone else was ever so wicked."

History / Polish hatred towards Jews... [1290]

I was replying to one (longish) post, not the thread as a whole.


That's fair enough. There are some good Polish people, bad Polish people, and a lot somewhere in between. Same as everywhere else, I'd imagine.

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]


Given what happened in Gdynia a few months ago, how was the programme inaccurate?


Or you haven't fully understood my point.


Bad things happen everywhere. But you will only know what a place is really like by actually going there and seeing for yourself.

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]


You are dismissing a programme you haven't actually seen as 'propaganda'. Presumably on the basis that it said something bad about Poland, or rather that someone informed you that it said something bad about Poland.


Reading comprehension not your strong point, I take it.


No, but I am British, I lived there for thirty years, go there about twice a year, and so on. And this gives me a greater insight into what people think and feel there than someone who gets their opinions from the dross that is posted on Polish Forums, I would imagine.

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]


My insight into anti-Polish feeling?

I don't really have the time to write any kind of in-depth analysis.

However, given the massive immigration over the previous ten years from Poland, the biggest surprise is that it is not greater than it currently is.

I wonder how Poland would cope with a similar influx?


I saw it and I'd say it was pretty accurate.

If you regard it as 'propaganda', then I'd suggest you don't fully understand the meaning of this word.

What 'attack' in the Mail would you be referring to here?

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]


In your opinion. Yet you make no attempt whatsoever to back up your claim with evidence.

Furthermore, you don't appear to understand the meaning of the word, 'propaganda'.

History / Polish hatred towards Jews... [1290]


So you emerged fully formed from primeval slime through the sewage system. Figures, I suppose.

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]

I'd go as far as to say I'm pretty well qualified to speak about this.

I have a press pass for my local team, and go to every match. I've even taken photos of the 'action' away from the stadium.

Barney objects to the presence of far-right thugs interrupting university lectures, yet not their presence at just about every professional football match that takes place in Poland.

It isn't pleasant, and any non-white football fan wishing to attend matches in Poland should be aware of these groups, their attitude and behaviour, for their own safety.

It's a pity the Mexican sailors in Gdynia never watched the programme, as it might have saved them from an extremely unpleasant experience.

The vast majority of Poles never grew up in a multi-cultural environment, and many are wholly unfamiliar with perspectives of the world that are not Polish. Therefore, some are shocked and hurt to discover that not every history book in the world portrays them as the 'noble victims' of the misdeeds of others, as they had been told at school. Given the opening of borders after communism, and the free movement of peoples within the EU, this will hopefully change.

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]

Either the programme accurately reflected fans' behaviour, or it did not. People who are familiar with the behaviour of Polish football fans can provide an informed opinion on this matter. Those who have never been to match in Poland, can't.

You are entitled to your opinion, but it isn't an informed one.

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]

I wasn't a piece of 'propaganda'. It wasn't 'promoting or disseminating any particular ideology'. You may not have agreed with the programme, but the word you have used to describe it was entirely inaccurate.

The programme suggested that it was unsafe for people from ethnic minorities to attend football matches in Poland and Ukraine. It is extremely hard to see how this opinion was unfair. Perhaps you could tell us the reason you believe this to be the case.

Did you see the footage of Mexicans being beaten by football hooligans in Gdynia in August?

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]

And how would this programme have helped them to achieve this?

The tournament had already been awarded to Poland/Ukraine. There was little or no possiblity of UEFA changing their decision at that stage.

That's a conspiracy theory on a really grand scale.

You still have yet to explain what was wrong with the programme, (which was about the influence of the far right in football stadiums in Poland and the Ukraine).

If it gave a false view, then:

(a) do you deny there is a physical threat to football supporters from ethnic minorities attending football tournaments in Poland and the Ukraine from far right thugs?

and

(b) do you deny that that the far right has significant influence on football supporters associations in Poland?

Points (a) and (b) are what the documentary informed its viewers of, and both points are entirely correct.

If you don't believe either point to be correct, could you please tell us why.

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]


No.

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]

Again, conspiracy theory on a grand scale.

Are you seriously suggesting the United Kingdom, which invented football, and has the world's richest professional league, really needs to bash countries such as Poland and Ukraine in order to host a football tournament?

If you honestly believe that, then it appears Harry has got your number.


It suggested ethnic minorities should stay away. Entirely correctly. Would you disagree with that assessment?


In your imagination. Panorama identified a real problem. Are you seriously denying that racism and the far right are not a serious issue in football stadiums in Poland and Ukraine?

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]


Your opinion here is frankly ridiculous, Barney. It is not being absurdly patriotic to suggest that England has a lot of prestige in the football world, and therefore has little need to organise a 'dirty tricks' campaign merely for the right to organise a football tournament.

As Poland/Ukraine had just staged a tournament, they would not be in contention again for some years.

Furthermore, the BBC is a genuinely independent organisation.

One point you seriously need to address, is that nothing in the Panorama programme was inaccurate.

I thought you were against racism, the far right and so on. So, a major broadcaster highlights this problem and you are opposed to this ?!?!

On what grounds? That the broadcaster happens to be 'British'? So, Harry has summarised you correctly, then?


Why should ethnic minority people have to be 'extra cautious'?


He's as entitled to his opinion as much as the next man. I wouldn't be angry with any broadcaster for reporting his remarks, or state they were disseminating 'propaganda' for doing so. I'm not going to organise any anti-Sol Campbell demonstrations because of what he said.

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]

Here is a succinct and user-friendly definition of the word 'propaganda':

prop·a·gan·da
/ˌpräpəˈgandə/
Noun

Information, esp. of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.
The dissemination of such information as a political strategy.

It's up to Barney to demonstrate that:

the programme was biased or misleading
that it was publicising a particular cause or point of view
that this information was being disseminated as a political strategy

He's pretty far from doing so.

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]


It was because of their reputation, something we thankfully put behind us decades ago. And something that countries such as Poland and Ukraine need to urgently address in the present century.

Should the English FA have ignored the problem and claimed anyone who mentioned it was somehow 'plotting' against them?

What about Panorama documentaries about hooliganism in England? Were they in league with others in some kind of anti-English plot?


Your logic is somewhat confused here.

'factually inaccurate' means the same as 'not true'.

Either claims made were false or else they weren't.

What do you believe?

And if the programme made false claims, then what were they?


If the people concerned hadn't done what they did then they wouldn't have had the footage.

If I pointed a camera at you, would I get footage of you committing a racial assault.

You are 'shooting the messenger here. Why, because the messenger happens to be from your least favourite country?

Can you tell me what 'assumptions' were made and why they are 'untrue'?

It is not untrue that ethnic minority fans are under threat at football stadiums in Poland, and neither is untrue to state that supporters organisations have been influenced by the far right in Poland.

You can't answer the points above, and you are doing a terrible job of defending the indefensible.

You are defending the point of view of PiS, who are in denial about the influence of the far right.

That's not a particularly nice position to find yourself in, Barney.

[quotation]Sol Campbell was used as a poster boy for that programme because he had been England captain and was Black, he was urging people to avoid the two countries.[/quote]

He was urging ethnic minorities not to go. You yourself said they should be 'extra cautious'. Why go somewhere where you need be 'extra cautious'?

Was he wrong, and if so how?

And what problem do you have with Panorama asking the opinion of a former black England football captain?

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]

How is it wrong?

They are 'unsafe'.

Here is a group of Mexicans being attacked on a beach in Gdynia a few weeks ago by football fans, taken not by the BBC, but rather by the Polish police monitoring camera:

Now, would it have been a good idea had those Mexicans watched the Panorama documentary?

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]

But it is typical of the behaviour of Polish football ultras.


I neither need nor require your praise.


And did they do this by accepting they had a problem and looking for ways to solve it, or by brushing it under the carpet and claiming anyone who mentioned it was part of some nefarious anti-English plot?

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]

[quote=Barney]Oh god not another one displaying exactly the same attributes they feel all Polish people have. There has been no evidence produced for these beliefs beyond "a bloke told me" produced here.

Polish football ultras are not the same as all Polish people.

You seem to be attempting to move the discussion away from the facts, which are that Polish football supporters groups are dominated by right wing thugs, who pose a threat to non-white people visiting Poland.

We have to ask why someone who is supposedly 'anti-racist' is not apparently not concerned by this.

The fact that the programme was made by the BBC, which contains the word 'British', provides us with a helpful clue here.


The evidence was filmed assaults on Asians during a match, Nazi saluting, interviews with fan groups.

As if further evidence were needed, I posted another video.

It is you who has failed to produce evidence for your claims that a programme exposing racism and thuggery was merely part of some nefarious British plot to blacken the name of Poland so England could get the Euros for themselves.

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]

[quote=Harry]Perhaps Barney would prefer to claim that it was partly that and partly a result of the Anti-Polish feeling in the UK he thinks exists in the UK

I think you are personalising the discussion here.

(As Barney did bringing up irrelevancies from previous discussions).

However, I believe it valid to ask Barney why he supports the theory of mysterious British plots.

It's hard to believe he'd have a similar theory about broadcasting organisations from nations other than Britain.

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]


Yes, it does. That's part of the definition of 'propaganda', which is a pejorative word.


But have produced no evidence whatsoever to back up your claim.


Evidence?


It wasn't an 'aside'. This is the assumption on which you base your accusation of 'bias'.


What exactly did I 'make up'?


What exactly do you expect a programme on football hooliganism to show? Herds of wildebeast in the Serengeti?


Few black or Asian fans went (thankfully) so this is hardly any great surprise. The video I posted gives us a good reason why.


It is your unquestioning acceptance of a half-baked conspiracy theory involving Britain that is wholly unsupported by any evidence that leads me to suspect possible anglophobic bias.


If you can provide evidence then I'll consider it. .


Either you can support a viewpoint with facts, or you cannot. You have completely failed to show any factual inaccuracies in the programme.

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]


They asked Sol Campbell to comment on the programme, and broadcast his reaction. You may not like what he said, but why should you have a problem with this? That was his personal opinion, and not necessarily that of the BBC.

And, tbh, what was wrong with his opinion? If you are black and go to football stadiums in Poland, there is a reasonable likelihood of your being attacked. You're pretty unlikely to be killed, but this might happen.

I'd still say that you are (generally) a reasonable poster. I honestly don't think what I wrote is that difficult to understand, but if you can't understand it, then that's just too bad. I could explain exactly what I meant but I think it would be rather tedious and time-consuming, so it's better just to leave it.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm getting the impression you are just seeing what you want to see, rather than the wider picture. There may be some unpleasant/unfair articles, but I doubt whether even the tabloids are 'monotematyczny' on Polish immigration. They tend to be more focussed on the breasts of film stars and footballers' sexual activities than the 'evil' deeds of Poles.

I imagine probably they would report it. By the way, just because you've seen something in 'niezależna.pl', it isn't necessarily true.

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]


Who should they have ascribed these problems to, Then? France? Germany? Luxembourg?


How is asking him to comment 'using' him? How could they have predicted what he would say?


They were central to a thesis you have no evidence for.


Why bring nonsense of a personal nature into all this? I have a problem with a certain poster, or rather he has a problem with me. But this has nothing to do with what is being discussed here.


Without evidence of their having stated anything unfair, inaccurate or untrue.


I have already stated you are entitled to your opinion, as I am, as is Sol Campbell. Mine is an informed opinion, however, yours is not, and you are totally unable to back up your opinion with evidence.


Or claim to have done.

But find yourself unable to support your claim with evidence.

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]

Sol Campbell has a right to an opinion, and the BBC have a right to broadcast this opinion.

Whether I personally think he happens to be right or wrong is an irrelevance.

Should he have been censored?


And I don't think you did, but would rather discuss something else now.


Exactly. Everyday tens of thousands of articles appear in the British press. The ones that turn up here are only a minute percentage of these articles. To understand what British people really believe, you would have to widen your reading substantially.

You have a problem with pragmatics. How would I know what attacks don't get reported?

But I don't imagine (but of course don't know) that newspapers would generally refuse to print stories about violence towards Poles.


Fair enough. But when somone wants to inform me of attacks on Poles in the UK, niezależna.pl is most often the source. And this is not a source I would trust.

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]


Blatant strawman argument. No-one has made such a claim.


I'm questioning why you choose to believe half-baked conspiracy theories rather than evidence

Why do you believe half-baked conspiracy theories rather than evidence?


Personalised irrelevancy. You can't show any evidence that the documentary was unfair, so you drag up this stupid rubbish.


No, it's the other way round. The broadcast claimed racism and far right activity to be a problem in the countries concerned and backed up these claims with evidence. You couldn't counter with evidence, so you brought in conspiracy theory nonsense and personal disputes.

You lose, I'm afraid.


How can you claim a programme you haven't actually watched was 'sensationalised'. You haven't watched it, so therefore you don't know.


Right.


In that case, they do get reported, then. And how would you know about the ones that don't get reported?


That's anecdotal evidence then.


He may, good Sir, be an unmitigated bounder, blaggard and cad, who need be taken to the gates of my club and horse-whipped without mercy for his ruffianly, uncouth behaviour and ungentlemanly conduct.


Forsooth, this matter may be beyond the wit and wisdom of a humble gentleman such as my good self.

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]


In that case you don't know the context, which is very important. Why don't you just watch the whole bloody documentary as it interests you so much, then you can give an informed opinion.


You asked me 'right' or 'wrong', you didn't ask me for a nuanced answer. Therefore, all you got was whether I (generally) agreed or disagreed.

I think non-white people should steer clear of football tournaments (in Poland and particularly Ukraine) for the foreseeable future for their own safety. It's pretty unlikely they would get killed, but there is a fair chance of their getting beaten.

And, so long as this is the case, then no, the countries concerned should not hold major international sporting events.


It can't be proved or disproved.

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]


Your problem with this being?


He was shown footage of Asians being racially assaulted in football stadiums for no reason other than that they were Asian. You don't need either a law degree or in-depth knowledge of Eastern Europe to form an opinion on racial assaults. They are wrong, shouldn't happen, and if a country allows them to happen then the country concerned should not hold major football tournaments.


Have I or anyone else expressed my opinion that his opinion is 'worthless' on this matter? This is just your own, personal, strawman argument. You are a useless poster, Barney.

UK, Ireland / And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK [187]


And you are qualified, I suppose.


He wasn't talking about the population as a whole. He was talking about football fans. Hopeless, strawman argument yet again, Barney.

He had plenty of grounds. Namely racial assault, and lack of police interest and protection for the victims. Which apparently doesn't concern you at all.


There was a conspiracy. No there wasn't. I said it. No, I didn't. I only said it as an aside etc, etc.

What are you trying to prove? You make an accusation, then backtrack from it.

You don't know whether you are coming or going.


I've never stated he was an 'expert', so strawman argument (again). I've asked why you imagine yourself to be an expert, but have received no reply. Have you been to any football matches in Poland? (I've been to a couple of hundred btw). I haven't 'dismissed' his opinion.

Anyway as all you have to contribute are strawman arguments, conspiracy theories that you subsequently deny having made, and irrelevant personal arguments from months ago, I think we'll draw the conversation to a close.

Please have the last word which you clearly crave.