Real Estate / Foreign investor, properties in Poland, walk away from mortgages? [209]

Wow, a lot of great feedback and discussion here. Thanks very much guys, this is all quite helpful.

To clear up a few points...

I understand that some people may have moral/ethical concerns about defaulting, walking away from obligations, etc. In fact I do too, but as an investor I would also like to look at this situation from a purely economic point of view as well, and then weigh the costs/benefits of the various points of view. So morality and ethics aside, I am curious about the actual consequences of such a course of action in practice.

In regards to being "massively overleveraged" etc. - let's be clear - yes of course that is a frequent occurence in today's market, and is a source of a lot of pain. And yes, my investments are "leveraged" as well. However, I could simply liquidate some of my other assets to cover the loss and get out of this position completely, so no I don't feel that I am "overleveraged" from that point of view. However, the sums required to accomplish this are significant, and as a percentage of the original investment, the loss would be severe (over 100% of the actual property value, and something upwards of 500% of initial investment I suppose). With such extreme losses, I am open to rather extreme solutions, and if there is a very low probability of feeling any actual pain from just walking away, then economically it wouldn't make any sense to take any further loss on my portfolio.

I should add that I am a US citizen, and although I am resident in the UK today, I could easily relocate back to the US if that would avoid trouble. In fact, a good chunk of my investment portfolio is US based, and therefore presumably harder to be reached from banks in the EU?

I am also open to the concept of declaring bankruptcy in the UK, but I would like to understand if that is really a last resort or if there are other better options available to me.

At this point I am just doing fact finding and exploratory work. Until now, the costs involved in just keeping this loss going over the last couple of years have not been severe enough to show up on my radar of priorities, but now as CHF continues to grow against PLN, the cost is also becoming a higher priority. I have in fact already made all the mortgage payments for this month (yesterday) and have not planned to discontinue any payments as of yet. So please don't get the idea that I have already jumped off the moral/ethical ledge as it were.

Also just to add one point to the morality/ethics argument - honestly the banks were not doing a tremendous job of explaining the risks (or even the mechanics) of these CHF-based mortgages when I first signed up. The explanation given to me was more along the lines of "with PLN, you get 8-9%, with CHF you get 2-3%, take your pick...". So yes of course I am responsible for my own decisions, but the lack of clarity on those offers was also a contributor - therefore I feel less concerned about taking the moral highground down the line with the outcome of all this.

Real Estate / Foreign investor, properties in Poland, walk away from mortgages? [209]

I actually have a Ltd co in the UK already, and have been considering how to transfer all the assets to the company. I suppose I will need to investigate this further..Thanks

Real Estate / Foreign investor, properties in Poland, walk away from mortgages? [209]

Sorry, I was not aware it was a crime to default on a mortgage. At least not where I'm from.

Real Estate / Foreign investor, properties in Poland, walk away from mortgages? [209]

Right, all I'm saying is, this isn't a matter of staying on the "right side of the law" or anything like that - there is nothing illegal or criminal about not paying your mortgage. At least not in the UK or in the US. And I hope not in Poland (?)..

Real Estate / Foreign investor, properties in Poland, walk away from mortgages? [209]

Thanks again guys, your advice is priceless. I'm going to speak to some mortgage brokers and some other friends I had from back a few years ago when these investments were kicking off.

In regards to "what kind of person mglaze is", firstly I guess the point I'm making is why does that factor into the equation at all? Whether I'm some poor sucker who got screwed once in his life, or I'm some rich sociopath milking the working class for all they are worth, ultimately I have an investment here that is digging into the red by the truckload, and I have to make a decision that makes the most economic sense for myself in the longrun. I don't think the bank will be asking themselves "what kind of bank is Bank X?" - they will make the decisions which make the most economic sense from their position.

Anyway, fyi I would say I'm in between those extremes. I'm not a minimum wage worker living week to week off a paycheck; neither am I a multi-millionaire or anything. Actually, these investments in Poland were my first real venture out into anything big, and were going to be a step towards a retirement portfolio. Since then I've had the opportunity to diversify and build up other investments a bit, but I'm still a relatively young guy and have a ways to go before we shall say I've "made it". I don't expect or need sympathy from anyone (well except those who are in the same situation, in which case it's mutual of course)..

The amount these mortgages are under water is far more than 20K. If this was a matter of a 20K hit or maybe even 50K, I would be inclined to just "ride it out" as you say, or perhaps even just pay it off and refinance everything, and flip it all to cut my losses. But by my estimates, I am over 100% underwater on these loans. It is no simple matter of riding it out. Yes, if CHF magically comes back to the level it was at, and simultaneously the Polish property market has a few stellar years of 10% or better growth, then things could change back in my favor. But people are talking about a double-dip recession now, and that just doesn't seem likely any time soon. CHF is in fact still hitting record highs right now, and who knows how much further this could go with Greece and all the rest.

I'm still hearing a lot of arguments which amount to "do the right thing". But this is not a case of morality or ethics for me. The bank is not going to do the right thing when it comes to screwing me over - they are going to do what makes the most sense economically. In short, this is business, not personal. I don't need moral advice - I need practical advice!

Regarding criminality - I don't think a bank decides when a "crime" has been committed - usually that is for governments, judges, and juries to decide.

I'm leaning towards the Ltd Co with insolvency route - that sounds better than declaring bankruptcy personally. I assume I basically need to sell the assets to my company in order to accomplish this? Will need to speak to a tax expert I guess. Presumably that would involve a sale, and therefore a capital gains tax? Well, small price to pay I suppose.

Real Estate / Foreign investor, properties in Poland, walk away from mortgages? [209]

I'll admit I haven't been back to Poland in the last 2 years to see how things are going - but I can say that the values of my property in Poland have shrunk from the original value, by about the same amount (20-30%) as my similar property in the UK. So at least in terms of property, if not all the rest, it seems that the economy in Poland has gone in a similar direction?

And by the way, I believe the S has already HTF in Greece, and it is only going to get worse - whichever direction things go, Greece is in for trouble - and this, and similar situations in Europe will hit countries like Poland (who have significant assets, >50% based on what I read recently, valued in CHF) the hardest. It really seems like a domino effect is going to happen here, and Poland hasn't seen the worst yet.

So I've already sent a request to my lawyers in Poland to find out about options for transferring ownership to the Ltd Co. I'll let you know what they have to say.

Regarding the LTV on these loans - 2 were at 90%, one was at 75%.

Real Estate / Foreign investor, properties in Poland, walk away from mortgages? [209]

Even the US is growing by 3-4% this year - but from what I've heard, economists don't consider that strong enough growth for a recovery from the recession - unemployment is still going up.

I've just done some quick numbers to see how bad things are for my portfolio. If my calculations are correct, I would need CHF to come back down at least halfway to where it was in 2008 (i.e. come down about 20%) and also for my property value to at least recover to original levels (they have lost about 23%) and then get a further 10% property value increase (so that's about 40% total growth needed from this level), and at that point my net exposure could be back to zero (of course still cutting all the cost out of my pocket so far as a loss, which is still quite significant). To fully recover my investment, I would need a further 20% property growth on top of all that.

So in other words I need to see about 70% property growth, along with 20% devaluation of CHF, before I can even start to think about profit.

Alternatively, if we could get CHF down 40% and property growth of 30%, that would also get me back in the black.

Not sure how likely either of these scenarios are in any near future - and not sure if I can sustain the monthly excess cost at current levels for years to come while I wait it out.

Real Estate / Foreign investor, properties in Poland, walk away from mortgages? [209]


Warsaw and Krakow actually. Krakow down only 12%, but Warsaw well over 20% down (in my case anyway)..

Ok guys, let's not get carried away - no one is proposing "fraud" or anything else criminal/illegal here. If it is actually illegal to transfer assets and debt, then obviously we will have to find a legal alternative. If it is illegal (criminal) to default on a mortgage (I certainly hope it is not, but I suppose only proper legal advise will be able to tell for sure), then of course we will have to find another (legal) alternative.

If either of these things are technically legal, but people still have ethical concerns about them, then that is a different story - the pros and cons need to be weighed out in a thoughtful manner.


I certainly hope so. That seems a bit optimistic for a full recovery, but it is possible. In that case, I suppose holding out and taking a gradual loss out of my pocket over the next few years in hopes that things turn around could be the best choice. Another option to consider...

Real Estate / Foreign investor, properties in Poland, walk away from mortgages? [209]

ok, here's a little detail:

#1 Mokotow 67m2 (59m2 internal) - approx 560k now? was 745k incl finishing;
#2 Bemowo 87m2 (74m2 internal) - approx 550k now? was 680k incl finishing;

Both new builds in 2008-2009, modern buildings, well more than 30 apartments in each development. Both have a parking space too.

My updates are quick estimates from a mortgage broker, not anything official from an appraiser yet, so I guess they could be a bit off.

* sorry, just edited those figures slightly..

Real Estate / Foreign investor, properties in Poland, walk away from mortgages? [209]

Hi, yes things were quite different a couple of years ago - I won't say it was exactly "easy" to get the mortgage sorted out, but that was more because of all of the bureaucracy and paperwork that I had to go through, not because they were unwilling to lend to foreigners. I understand that things have changed a lot now, and I might have more difficulty doing the same thing today.

Yes, the notional value of the mortgage is managed in CHF from the start, and all payments are determined at a (fixed) CHF rate, which then varies in PLN. It is effectively like borrowing in CHF.

My advice: don't even think about taking a foreign currency mortgage - I certainly never will make that mistake again. Or if I do, I'll be sure to take out a hedge position with FX options to cover my exposure.

Real Estate / Foreign investor, properties in Poland, walk away from mortgages? [209]


I'm no lawyer or banking expert, but it seems to me this is a case about an unsecuritized debt (i.e. with no assets to back it, which could be reposessed/foreclosed/etc), as opposed to a securitized debt like a mortgage. I also haven't had time to read the whole case so maybe I'm just misinformed - is there also a mortgage or anything else linked in to this same case? It seems to me that defaulting on an unsecuritized overdraft is a bit different ethically and morally (and presumably legally) than defaulting on a securitized mortgage. But again, maybe that's my US bias.

Here's a quote I read this morning from an article in the latest Economist:


All I'm trying to say is, it seems like there is a huge divide in thinking between the US and Europe, and then even between Britain and Poland within Europe. When I start talking about default here, I'm hearing gasps and rebukes of "what kind of person are you", whereas the thinking in the other hemisphere seems to be more one of acceptance of the new reality, that defaults are a natural way of life, and only by taking our medicine and getting them over with, can we get back to a stable foundation to start rebuilding. Anyway that's how I'm coming to terms with all this.


I don't think it's exactly out of "thin air". Presumably banks have already hedged out (from the sell side) all of their currency exposure on these CHF mortgages, using FX futures/options/swaps etc., and so presumably now they view the CHF mortgages as neutral to currency risk, and so they see them as they see any other mortgage, up and down nominally with interest rates, and at risk of the mortgage customer, and that's it. So while we see vastly fluctuating payments from the buy side, the huge amounts we are paying to the bank each month right now are not seen as massive profits from the bank's point of view - I don't think they've taken a "bet" against us on CHF.

But I guess this is what has been missed in the whole discussion. Everyone keeps asking questions like, "didn't you know how much you were leveraging", "why did you take such a risky 'bet' if you're not willing to face the consequences", etc. I suppose in hindsight I can see now how it's hard to believe anyone could get themselves in such a situation unintentionally, and so yes of course it looks like you just have a bunch of risky gamblers who don't want to fulfill their obligations now.

But let me tell you - honestly - back a few years ago when we were wrapping our heads around this idea, the FX risk did not seem like such a concern, and it did also not seem like the fundamental component of the "bet". We were betting on property growth (i.e. "property always goes up") and on the emerging economy of Poland at the time. Well yes obviously those two things have faltered a bit during the recession, and so fair enough, I would willingly take the pain for making a bad bet on property. But I can tell you we had no intention on being double-leveraged on the FX risk involved with CHF. Now it may seem obvious, but back then, it simply was not.

I know ignorance is a horrible defense to plead, but that's really all there is to it. Back a few years ago, when we were just getting these investments set up, there was so much unfamiliar ground to cover. We made multiple trips to visit Poland, visit building sites, meet with developers, meet with property agents, lawyers, and other experts. Set up Polish bank accounts. Register for Polish taxes and permits. Familiarize ourselves with the (completely foreign) Polish beurocratic processes. Not to mention picking up a foreign language, learn about the country, its different regions, history, culture, and customs. In short, our plate was full, doing all the necessary due diligence in a short time. We simply did not consider that we would also need to become experts in FX hedging. I never received a notice from anyone stating "by the way, you should be aware that you are signing on to an FX instrument with massive risk that potentially multiplies your leverage several times further". I recall at the time even joking to some friends involved in the same scheme, "hmm perhaps we should investigate some FX options or something". But it didn't seem like the major risk or even a point of concern at the time. I remember it seemed like I was the only one who even thought of such a thing. The mortgage brokers, lawyers, property agents, managing agents, etc. - none of them ever mentioned anything about it.

Now after several years of this, I am far more familiar with the whole thing, and I have a much better idea how to not fall in the same trap again. So lesson learned, and I suppose that's the positive side. But to everyone who assumes this is the only thing we needed to research and familiarize ourselves with, and therefore we shouldn't be forgiven for our ignorance - well, just imagine, you decide to go into a foreign country where it seems like some of the best opportunity is and you don't want to miss out, so you do all your research, set up a deal, and follow what seem to be the most common customs. Well, like I said, apparently > 50% of mortgages in Poland are CHF-based, so it does seem quite common. But it is very hard to believe 50% of homeowners in Poland are familiar with FX hedging. If it seems so common, and everyone is doing it, then it's hard to believe that could be the most dangerous component. What I still haven't understood is, how that >50% is still making their payments and not defaulting. I suppose if they are all ignorant about mortgage law, and assume it would be a "crime" to default, well that would probably be a good reason.

Well, what can I say, ignorance is no defense. But I'm sure I'm not the only one, and I'm sure I'm not the most ignorant one either.

Real Estate / Foreign investor, properties in Poland, walk away from mortgages? [209]


Well, I think you are confusing the fact that the bank can (and should) pursue assets to cover a default if it is entitled to, with the fact that this loan (a bank overdraft if I read correctly) is not securitized. Yes of course a bank can pursue assets, even on a non-securitized loan. But that is still very different from a mortgage, which is already linked to a specific asset (the house) as collateral.

The point being here - when you have no inherent collateral on a loan, then yes perhaps the bank should be free to pursue all possible assets to cover losses. But when you have a loan that is already collateralized (by a house), then (in some countries, but clearly not Poland) the collateral is already clearly defined, and therefore a default is generally covered only up to the present value of that collateral.

All I was trying to say is, the case of Jaceck isn't exactly relevant, as an unsecuritized loan is a completely different beast from a mortgage.


If this was simply a case of a bad decision on a low-rate loan (i.e. with introductory teaser rate, variable interest, rising interest rates, etc.) then that would be different. Yes, plenty of people in the US are defaulting just because of those reasons. But the CHF component has added another factor that multiplies these losses even further.

In any case, I don't know what "people like me" should be able to do or not do, and I don't care right now. All I care about is maximizing my economic benefit and minimizing my risk, and I will make the best decisions accordingly. This is economics, not morality or ethics.

Real Estate / Foreign investor, properties in Poland, walk away from mortgages? [209]

Well, I have my lawyers on a little fact-finding mission already, firstly to investigate any possibility of transferring the whole thing to my Ltd Co, either as a "sale" or perhaps as some other kind of "transfer". Granted this is a longshot for investments that are over 100% underwater at the moment, but seems like it's worth a shot.

Secondly, yes I've thought about proposing the default idea to them and seeing what they say. I'm a bit hesitant to do this as they are the same lawyers I used to do all the property contracts in the first place - and so, although that business is long since concluded, I'm slightly worried about any conflict of interest there? Not sure if it makes sense to stick with lawyers I know and trust (as much as lawyers could be trusted I suppose) as opposed to going to an unknown for advice on that aspect.

If it gets past this stage to become a serious possibility, then yes I suppose I would have to at least do a bit of exploration with both UK and US lawyers, as I have assets in both. At this point things would be getting serious though, as just the legal exploration is going to start costing real money.

I am still looking at default as really the absolute last option. I suppose the order of things from best case to worst case would be:

(1) Hold out for a while, take the pain of insanely rising monthly payments, and miraculously CHF makes a quick devaluation (hmm have you seen CHF today?!) - but I can't sustain this level for very long. A few months, yes of course. A few years? Hmm, probably not.

(2) Variation on #1, but speak to the bank and convince them to give me another Dolpaty Max Rata agreement? Seems quite bad in the longrun, if fees are as high as they were the first time around. But could help me tread water long enough to see what happens with CHF, or to plan my alternate strategy..

(3) Somehow transfer to Ltd Co and start going down insolvency route;

(4) UK bankruptcy? Ok now we are getting to the serious end of things...

(5) Just walk away unannounced, pack up everything and head back to US... or perhaps South America? Hmm, what could the statute of limitations be on these things? At least some people seem to think the Polish banks can chase you wherever you go and take whatever you have. Well, I doubt it, but let's just say that's true - so if you disappear off the grid for 10 years, what happens when you come back? Does the bank literally own you and all your descendants forever and ever?

Real Estate / Foreign investor, properties in Poland, walk away from mortgages? [209]


Well it sounds like this is all most likely a purely theoretical discussion, as it might be near impossible to actually accomplish. But from what I understand, the definition of a Limited company is that it has "limited liability" - i.e. once debts and assets are encapsulated inside a Ltd co, that company can then be made insolvent without affecting the credit (much less the actual assets) of the individuals who may be involved with the company.

I suppose what you mean is that it just won't be possible to transfer the debt to the company, and so even if I manage to transfer the assets (at today's current value, free of their debt), I would still have to own the debt personally and will never find a way to transfer that? Which makes sense I suppose...but what do I know, that's why I have lawyers investigating..

But presumably, if (and it's a big IF) the assets and debt and basically the entire investment could somehow be transferred to a Ltd Co at this late stage in the game, then those debts would be a purely limited liability of the company, and no longer have any relation to "who signed on the dotted line". Right? I mean, limited liability is the central, fundamental idea behind the Ltd Co, right? Or perhaps I just have this idea completely wrong.

To add an interesting point to the mix, I would mention that, although most of the assets involved are currently owned by myself personally (and thus mortgages being in my name, and debts being my personal liability), some smaller portion of the assets are actually already under the ownership of my Ltd Co. For example, one of the property purchases required a separate deed of sale for ownership of a portion of the road in front of the property (don't ask why, I have no idea..) - and so I did manage to have that deed in the company's name. Now, this is probably a very tiny part of the overall assets, but it is something, and it does give me something to show that these assets could in theory be owned by the company, and it also raises an interesting point about the mortgage. If the mortgage is in my name, but some of the assets (even 0.1%) are owned by the Ltd Co, does that mean that some portion of the liability is actually a liability of the company? Well at this point, it's all legal mumbo jumbo and far beyond my expertise, but who knows, it could prove interesting..

It's a shame really, the entire idea from the outset was to establish the company as a Holding Co for these and other assets, and for all the mortgages to be arranged in the company's name. But in the rush to get everything finished up on time, it just didn't get done that way. Imagine if it had - I suspect we would be having a very different discussion now.

Real Estate / Foreign investor, properties in Poland, walk away from mortgages? [209]

No, no dependents.


Can you elaborate please? I still can't believe defaulting on a mortgage is a criminal act in any civilised country. Are you referring to a criminal arrest warrant? Or something else?

Also, let's be clear - you guys are jumping straight to the last option in my list. That is pretty much the end-of-the-world scenario for me, and not very realistic as long as British bankruptcy is still a feasable option.

Real Estate / Foreign investor, properties in Poland, walk away from mortgages? [209]


The properties are (and have been from the start) rented out at market rates. This covers about 40% of the monthly mortgage payments, at the current rates, and with CHF going up every month this is getting worse and worse. So to be clear: 60% of the monthly cost is coming out of my pocket right now.

Interestingly - this is both interest and repayment. So perhaps another possibility is to get the bank to agree to go back to interest-only payments for the next couple years until the CHF comes back down.

Real Estate / Foreign investor, properties in Poland, walk away from mortgages? [209]


Yes, exactly. I have heard similar things. I read recently that more than 50% of all mortgages in Poland are in Swiss Francs. How is it possible there are not loads of defaults happening already? My rental income covers less than 50% of the current mortgage payments. I am an investor, and although I am not super-wealthy by UK standards, I think I am a bit more well-off than the average local homeowner in Poland. I imagine that at least some of these 700,000 people are just normal, local Polish homeowners.

In the US, if someone saw their mortgage payments more than double in the span of 2 years, and the equity on their home drop to less than 50% of the value of the mortgage loan, and presuming that the person originally bought their home based on a budget that was within their means - then clearly they would not be able to afford the payments at over twice the original amount. And with less than 50% equity remaining, I think any decent financial adviser would advise that person to walk away. And in the US we don't even have this cross-currency effect to compound the losses.

So how is it possible that no people in Poland are already in this situation? Or what are these people doing? Or is it actually that all the people buying in Swiss Francs are actually foreign investors, and they are all so much more wealthy than me and aren't really bothered with these losses? For me personally, it is getting to the point that it is affecting the bottom line. So I can't imagine how it is for a normal homeowner who bought a home initially paying 1800 PLN per month, and now for the same home being required to pay 4200 PLN per month, but probably on the same salary they had as before.

If this was in the US, and you had a case where literally thousands of people were being sold loans with a highly leveraged cross-currency component like this, I can't even imagine the number of class action suits and public outcry that would be happening right now as people start to suffer 150% losses every month. Banks would never get away with this in the US. And yet here it seems some people have the nerve to imply that my not being able to afford this is somehow "criminal". Such a different mentality, it is just shocking. In the US we had such a huge outcry against the banks, just for the banks selling loans with "teaser" rates and then jacking those rates up a few percent after the first couple years. Let me tell you - that is absolutely nothing compared to these CHF loans - these are literally orders of magnitute worse for the consumer, and also far more complex.

Real Estate / Foreign investor, properties in Poland, walk away from mortgages? [209]


I intend to soon, just compiling thoughts/opinions here on possible courses of action, before I reveal my concerns to the bank and make them aware of any risk.


Actually, it's not. In order to properly protect yourself from the additional risk due to fluctuations between the value of the asset (the property value, in PLN) and the value of the debt (the loan, in CHF), you would need to arrange a series of FX swaps over the lifetime of the mortgage to hedge out the currency risk. There is nothing simple about that.

I doubt most people who took out CHF-based mortgages in Poland intended to purchase an ultra-risky doubly-leveraged loan. They were probably just told that was the way to get the best rate, as Polish banks were skeptical about the PLN currency and so therefore reluctant to loan in their own currency at a good rate. Well that's what I was told anyway.

Real Estate / Foreign investor, properties in Poland, walk away from mortgages? [209]


Yes, that's the most interesting part. Have a look at CHFPLN over the last 10 years. If you had been looking at it in late 2007/early 2008, it would have looked very "safe" based on the recent years. It seemed to have a steady decline of a fairly regular rate every year until then (around 7-8% lower on average each year). By the way, this is very similar to the profiles of GBPPLN, EURPLN, and USDPLN over that same time period - so that 7-8% had a lot more to do with the growth of PLN, than with any change in any of the other currencies. I'm sure I had a look at these charts at the time, and probably even did some best case / worst case scenarios based on them.

Then in 2nd half 2008, CHFPLN reversed directions and abruptly exploded by 63%. It's been at those inflated levels ever since.

The interesting thing about this is, so did CHFGBP. Although the initial pop against GBP happened a little bit earlier (beginning 2008 instead of mid 2008), the really exaggerated growth happened around the same time. So, the conclusion here is, while pre-2008 it seemed like PLN was the main moving factor here, and it was just a matter of betting on continued steady growth for Poland; post-2008, the combination of falling PLN and rapidly growing CHF has completely reversed everything.

Of course, as they say, "past performance is not a reliable predictor of future performance"...

Real Estate / Foreign investor, properties in Poland, walk away from mortgages? [209]


Lol, that's the best part actually - the UK based company we dealt with to set everything up went bust and dissolved just around the time the market started to turn downwards, so it's hard to place the blame there, as there is no one left to blame or ask for help from that end.

I think, at least in my case, the decision to go for the CHF mortgage was primarily a result of advice from the mortgage brokers (we spoke to several different ones actually). They all seemed to have the same advice, and the recommendation of a CHF based mortgage for the "lowest rate" was pretty much the universal consensus. None of them did a great job of explaining how the product worked, or what risk was involved. They actually made it sound very simple, as if it was just a number for the value of the loan or something. The relation between the currencies was never properly explained by the mortgage brokers or anyone else, and the simple manner in which it was explained made it seem like there was no reason to suspect it might be more risky or complex than it seemed.

Unfortunately I just don't think the mortgage brokers who sold us these loans in the first place really have any reason to care about helping us out now.