Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]

SeanBM


I hope to live there in the future. The apartment should also be a good investment for the future.


Thank you for bringing that development to my attention! I could not find any development of such a high standard. The location seems very good also.

Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]


What are the prices? I had planned to contact the developer to inquire about the prices.

Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]


The only project mentioned in this thread! The project that you linked to.


No matter how much money one has, it is still prudent to make a good investment. I don't think that anyone with a different attitude could ever amass any larger sum of money for themselves. I highly doubt that the price is a secret.

Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]


I'm looking to buy an apartment in a building of the same standard as the Garden Residence. The other projects you linked to seem interesting also. I will visit Krakow next week to try to see a selection of apartments. Do you have any other suggestions? It is important though that the apartment is centrally located.


Most of the projects are far from being completed, and I want the apartment to be ready by the end of this year.


I know it is common for garage spaces to be sold in countries such as India, but I have never heard of it being done in Europe before. Is it possible to receive a passive income from the garage space? In India the property management company can rent out the garage space.

I find it hard to believe that the demand for garage space in Krakow is so high. In Stockholm it is usually not a problem to find a parking space in the city centre during peak hours. Now Tokyo, that is a different story! You cannot even own a car there without first having your own parking space.

Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]

I will give a report after my visit for the benefit of anyone else who might be interested in buying an apartment in Krakow. Also, I want to thank everyone for the advice you have provided me!

Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]

I heard of apartments and houses being sold in an unfinished state in Poland, but I thought this was no longer the reality since long ago. For me the phenomenon seems like a contradiction as people buying expensive apartments are usually wealthy, and as such they are usually not adept at construction work unless they are engineers.. Donald Trump might know a lot about real estate but he certainly does not do the the construction work himself, instead leaving it to professionals.

How could such a person install the plumbing and do the electrical work in his new luxury villa by himself? In Poland he would even be required to build the stairs himself! Of course none of this is practically possible and instead he hires some professionals, right?

Buying an apartment from a reputable developer is considered a guarantee for the construction work to be of high quality. The developer could relinquish responsibility for any faults by claiming that the second party, the company hired by the buyer, is actually responsible for the faults. Of course that company in turn would relinquish any responsibility by claiming that the faults were there to begin with. The buyer would then be forced to pursue a legal battle for compensation.

I'm no expert in the field but I doubt one company could do all the finishing work, so the buyer would have to enlist the services of many different parties. The situation will then be even more complicated for the buyer. How could a layman be able to ascertain the quality of the work done by so many different parties? Even if only one of the companies hired is dishonest it could be very expensive to repair the damage done.

I don't know how the owner scheme looks in Poland as there are many different variants. In Sweden the buyer doesn't actually own the apartment, instead owning a share in the apartment building corresponding to the stake of his investment. The other apartment owners must therefore authorize any construction work done in the apartment. If the work is not well done then the apartment owner is forced to make amends.

Even if this is not the system in Poland then it should still be in the interest of the other apartment owners that the work done is of high quality. How can it be possible to make sure of that if each apartment owner is to finish the apartment at his own discretion? Perhaps he hires some dishonest company? In worst case he is a layman but does the construction work himself to save money.


As for renovating ones bathroom for 100000 euro, rich Swedish people are usually so cheap that they recycle bottles and cans for money. One of the richest people in the world, Ingvar Kamprad, drives around in a Volvo 240 GL from 1993! I think renovating ones bathroom for 100000 euro is a "nouveau riche" phenomenon which is more rare in western Europe.


How much is it possible to haggle down the price if paying in cash instead of taking a mortage loan from the developer? That the apartment is not finished when I buy it is definitely a problem. I guess buying the apartment furnished is out the question then?


I have relatives in Krakow and I can speak Polish even if I'm quite rusty. Also, I think that I know the ropes well enough not to fall in the biggest traps as a "frajer".

Concerning the discussion about prices, even the really expensive apartments in Sweden are located in old, worn out buildings which are very cold. All the apartments in Sweden basically look the same on the outside. In fact, many apartments in ghettos can look much better on the outside than extremely expensive apartments in the city center of Stockholm.

What you pay for in Sweden is the address and location, nothing else. Apartments are so expensive in Sweden that many new developments have huge mortage loans and the apartment owner must pay for the mortage loan monthly in addition to his own mortage loan for the apartment. The consequence is that people can pay €800 monthly for an apartment they own! This is in addition to the possible mortage loan they have for the apartment itself.

If new developments did not have mortage loans then the price for the apartments would be so high that normal people could not afford it. The mortage amortization period can often be up to 100 hundred years! There are some apartments in the center of Stockholm with little or no loans, although such apartments can often cost up to 1 million euro or more.

Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]

Do you mean that the apartment would have been priced at 2,500,000 PLN before the crisis? Otherwise it sounds extreme that it would be possible to haggle down the price by 40%. I must say though that the apartment looks very interesting.


Of course there are apartments priced much higher than 1,000,000 euro in Warsaw, however apartments at that price in Warsaw are most certainly luxury apartments.

It is my opinion that this thread is going way off-topic. Personally I think the people bickering should do it somewhere else. The participants have made it quite clear that they only continue the discussion to insult the other party.

I want this thread to be informative for other people who seek information on the topic of buying an apartment in Krakow, links to useful websites and answers to related questions.

Links for websites to search for apartments:

wbj.tabelaofert.com (new projects)
property-krakow.com (new projects and secondary market)

Information about prices:


Does anyone have any experience to share about the "Pod Klucz" concept offered by Dom Development? domdevelopment.com.pl

Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]


I'm not interested to know if the prices are going to hit rock bottom, only whether it is a good time to buy an apartment now or not. I feel that I have gotten a good answer to that question, although the fact that apartments are sold unfitted was a rather unexpected turn.

Is it also correct that a garage space costs 30,000 euro? You seem to have a lot of insight into the topic, perhaps you know the average cost to fit a two bedroom apartment? A rough estimate is enough.

Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]


I have a lot of experience in the international buy-to-let market and I can tell you that there are so many unknown factors that the reality will be completely different than you had planned for. The calculations are really good until you find out about all the factors that you hadn't anticipated.


Ah yes, I mixed things up! I must have inadvertently read it as a much higher number because I thought of my experience from from Tokyo where having your own garage space costs about 100,000 euro.

Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]


I could write a book about it but I will try to give you some answers. I'm speaking generally from my experience in the international buy-to-let market; however I will also give my thoughts on the situation in big cities in Europe.

Firstly, it can be very hard to find people to rent out the apartment. In many hot markets the real estate agent might claim that the demand for apartments to rent is huge! The problem is that so is the selection of apartments to rent. Why, the developer might even give you a 6% a year rental guarantee but this is just nonsense because the demand is nowhere big enough.

In Spain renting out your holiday apartment is a hopeless enterprise because besides the low demand there are sometimes rules that prohibit you from even renting out the apartment. Brazil is a very hot market where there are many resorts that offer full rental management, although the developers giving rental guarantees just give empty promises because they cannot give such guarantees.

For example, in Natal the developers have spoken for years about a huge surge in tourism that is coming soon, always soon. The new airport was supposed to give tourism a huge boost. The problem? The old airport was not even at full capacity! The new airport was built for the world cup in Natal, not because of tourism demand.

The situation is the same in Spain, Portugal and Greece. People are also not going to rent apartments to spend their time in Egypt or Morocco. Another problem is the visa because even if you buy an apartment you cannot live as a resident in many countries. The most beneficial benefits are given in many countries in South America, giving you a residence permit for buying an apartment. Many of the countries also allow you to apply for citizenship only after a few years.

Why is this important? Because you will never be able to rent out your apartment in Montevideo from Montana, USA or wherever you live. The same problem applies to Poland regardless of Polish citizenship because you cannot rent out your apartment in Sopot in a practical way if you live on the other side of the world.

In many big cities in Europe you will not get good rental returns for the investment because the market caters to locals. Norway has among the highest GDP (gross domestic product) in EUrope and the rent for a one bedroom apartment in the city centre is about 800 euro. The average square meter price in Oslo is 6000 euro.

The square meter price is much lower in Poland, yet you will not get good rental returns there either. It could however be a good investment for the future if you buy the apartment and plan to live there. I do not know what the rules are in Poland but in many countries residential cooperatives have rules against renting out apartments. The reason for this is that the other residents do not want that someone buys an apartment in the building and never lives there, instead renting it out to different strangers that come and go.

You also need to keep an eye on the people you rent out the apartment to. Another problem is the wear to the apartment that will most likely require you to renovate the apartment if you plan to sell it later or live there yourself. This means that the little net profit you gain after the administration fees and taxes are paid will have vanished.

There are some cities in Europe such as London, Geneva, Paris or Moscow where you can actually make a lot of money if you can afford to buy a suitable apartment to rent out. Outside Europe the most expensive rental markets are Hong Kong and Japan. I think if you do some research you will initially come to the conclusion that the most profitable buy-to-let markets in gross profit margin in relation to the price of the apartment are developing countries such as Brazil, which is the reason why I think it was prudent to include information on that topic. Finally, one of the most important things to know is that many countries have a high capital gains tax, meaning that this will eat away your gross profit margin.

Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]

I do not live in Poland but I think that when you come back in the summer to live in the apartment there will be no apartment left. It is a very bad idea to rent out your apartment unsupervised on the other side of the world! Especially if you are renting it out to young people.

Besides, you will get so little money for renting it out that it would hardly be worth it. I think the rent for a one bedroom apartment outside the city centre is about 300 euro per month in Warsaw, but anyone with more knowledge is free to correct me if I'm wrong.

It is never a good investment to buy an apartment and just sit on it. Many people think they will be able to rent out their apartment, but this is usually only a viable option if the apartment was bought for that purpose to begin with.

The other option is if you actually live near the apartment you are renting out, meaning that you can rent it out for shorter periods when there is a demand. You will not find anyone to rent out the apartment to for long periods if you live on the other side of the world. Any such enterprise is just too risky and the tenants will not want to pay much money in rent.

In fact, finding anyone to rent out the apartment to at all for long periods will be hard unless there is something special about the apartment. Luxurious apartments in big cities could be rented out to big companies for very long periods.

It could work to rent out the apartment in the Caribbean but it depends on the apartment, the location and the demand. In some locations it could be very hard and not profitable at all, while in other locations it could be really easy to rent out the apartment and quite profitable.

Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]


The average price for an apartment located in one of the nicer areas of central Stockholm is 25,000 PLN per square meter. I don't see why the prices in cities like Warsaw and Krakow could not raise to similar levels in a few years.

There are many more rich people in Poland than in Sweden. This may sound surprising but the reason for this is because Sweden has a very small population compared to Poland. There are also many immigrants in Sweden from the Middle East and Africa, who are often very poor and unemployed.

The ethnic Swedish population is only 7 million. Sweden was ranked this year by the World Economic Forum as the country where income is most evenly distributed in the world. The thing is that not many people in Sweden are rich, meaning that the market for expensive apartments is quite small.

The reason why luxury apartments in Poland are expensive is because they are actually luxury apartments, not only expensive due to their location. The luxury apartments in Sweden are only considered luxury apartments because of their location. Two identical apartments could vary enormously in price depending on the location. In fact, such apartments that are considered standard for luxury apartments in Poland cannot even be found anywhere in Sweden!


I think investing in Ukraine at the moment is a very bad idea because the economy there is like a roller coaster. It could be almost impossible to sell the apartment at a later time. There was an economic collapse in 1991 and now the country was hit again very hard by the financial crisis. The GDP (nominal) per capita is less than that of a long list of African countries! The economy of Ukraine needs to mature more before investors will have confidence in the country.

Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]

Could anyone give me a rough estimate on how much it would cost to complete a two bedroom apartment in Poland to a good standard?

I will visit Krakow by the end of this week to check apartments, so I really need to know at least vaguely how much I would need to spend after the apartment is bought.

Real Estate / Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland? [142]


Are you trying to give me reservations about buying an apartment in Krakow? That thread was not very encouraging.


Thank you for the information! I had feared that the cost would be much, much higher than that. Is it possible for the developer to finish the apartment? If so, would this alternative be more advantageous than enlisting the services of independent contractors? Would there be any difference in price or the quality of the work done?

If the developer finishes the apartment is it also possible for them to furnish it? I also assume that the figure you provided is without white goods. I appreciate any information you can provide.


If the figure is somewhat accurate then the information will be very helpful to me.

USA, Canada / Do Polish guys like American girls? [103]


I hope you are not just showing an interest in him to get a Polish residence permit and a fast ticket into the European Union!!! ;)

As for woman from the United States, my initial reaction would be negative upon learning of their nationality, although after that my opinion of them would be based upon their actual personality.

I don't see why he could not like you if the two of you get along well. I don't know how long the two of you have talked, but I think it would be prudent for you to visit him first.

After all, there is the chance that he is interested in you because he thinks that you can provide him with a higher standard of living.

I assume you are not particularly rich, so perhaps you can hint that to him in some discreet way and see his reaction?

Still, I don't think many Poles have such a low standard of living that they would think that they would have a better life in the United States. It would be a lot easier for them to move to some other country in the European Union.

Polonia / Life in Poland vs Norway - good for children, benefits, etc? [43]

Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland are always the happiest places to live in the world if you look at statistical figures, but unfortunately the real world is quite different from the world of statistics.

Finland was recently ranked by a well known US newspaper as the happiest place to live in the world. The people responsible for the study could probably not even locate Finland on a map, instead they simply looked at various statistical figures and concluded that Finland is the winner!

Being sent to northern Sweden would be like being sent to Siberia, however all of Finland is like northern Sweden. If it was anywhere else then everyone there would be classified as mentally insane. If you are not mentally insane by the time you arrive there, you are sure to be by the time you leave.

Even by Scandinavian standards Norwegians are considered to be insane! The country is one of the very richest in the world but people live in simple wooden houses which are considered crude even according to Swedish standards.

Few people own a car but everyone own a bicycle. It is important to keep in mind that Norway is a very oil rich country. Norwegians work a few hours a day and spend the rest of the time hiking in the mountains. They usually look like this:



that is if they are not wearing that silly sweater called lusekofte.

Swedes have among the highest salaries in the EU, yet Norwegians usually have twice the salary and still everyone go to Sweden to do their shopping! The country is so expensive that even with twice the salary people have less money than in Sweden.

Unless you are Scandinavian you will never be able to stay there for long mentally. Most Swedish people can only manage to work a few months in Norway before they must return to Sweden unless they are to risk their mental health permanently.

In the winter it is dark all the time and because of the climate you will pretty much end up like the character in The Shining. Forget about cities bustling with people and activity, the biggest city is Oslo and it is like a big village. All other cities are actual villages and it is rare to see any people at all in the winter months.

Polonia / Life in Poland vs Norway - good for children, benefits, etc? [43]

Poor fellow, I fear it might already be too late for him. The last stage of the transformation looks like this:



Behind the calm appearance there is a demented mind. If he has sent you a picture then you should see if he wears that sweater! If he wears it along with wavering a Norwegian flag then he has already lost all grip on reality.

Work / Average monthly salary in Poland is around 1000 PLN (few hundred bucks). [387]

I don't live in Poland but my relatives say things have improved a lot since 2006, and besides that I have also seen the changes myself during my visits. Many people that I know that moved to the USA have moved back to Poland now. Honestly, I have been in pretty much all of Europe and I don't think things are great anywhere right now. Poland has a lot going for it though, so to speak.

Life / Any treatment centres for homos in Poland? [455]

We have a lot of gay parades in Sweden and they are nothing but degenerate spectacles of decadence and disgust. I don't mind people being gay if they stay in the closet.

The people encouraging and organizing the parades are of the same ethnic group everywhere in Europe, but for the risk of being politically incorrect I'm not going to go into more details.

Still, I know that the gays that take part in the parade only represent a small minority of all gay people. In my opinion any healthy society would ban such spectacles.

Life / Any treatment centres for homos in Poland? [455]

History has taught us that society is in a constant state of cyclical change. There have always been homosexuals and they have either been persecuted or accepted. In ancient times homosexuality was widely accepted in Greece and Italy, but during most of the Middle Ages homosexuality was considered to be paraphilia and severely punished. The Roman Catholic Church and the Papacy viewed homosexuality as sexual deviation.

The state of any society can quickly change, as was the case in Germany in the period of the Weimer Republic and the rise of Nazism. Sadomasochism, homosexuality and other perversions were practiced by many degenerative elements of society, yet only a few years later Nazi Germany rid the country of such filthy perversions.

Today fascism is on the rise everywhere in Europe, which is the result of the failure of capitalism, meaning that we are soon entering a new period in history. When the situation is dire people always seek extreme solutions. This was the case in Germany during the Great Depression. The difference now is that all of the Western World is experiencing this depression. People have lost faith in capitalism and no longer believe it can sustain them.

The architects behind globalism have long been working towards destroying traditional values, centralizing power and making people feel alienated towards their neighbors and brothers. People who are alone, uninformed and addicted to destructive habits can easily be controlled. The same globalists control all media and indoctrinate people to make them apathetic to change.

Life / Why Poland is "surprised" by winter and snow every year? [192]

We have the same problem in Sweden! Every year the authorities are completely shocked by the snow and communal transportation stops functioning, electricity prices skyrocket and nobody has a clue about anything. All year the authorities talk about how important it is to prepare for the winter and come with predictions about how hard the coming winter will be. I actually thought this phenomenon was limited to Sweden.

Love / Polish women- submissive or dominant? [58]

All Polish woman I know are extremely dominant.

Life / The Polish people have a strange attitude to cats and dogs? [84]

I think Poland is the normal country in this regard! In many other European countries people care much more for dogs and cats than for their fellow human beings. I think this kind of attitude is very bad for society as a whole.

USA, Canada / REFUSED A HOLIDAY VISA TO THE U.S CAUSE IM POLISH [323]

It is always useful to have several passports issued by different countries. Polish passports do not provide any other benefits than those of other member states of the European Union. In general the same visa requirements apply to Polish passports as for other member states of the European Union. The only exception is the United States where Polish citizens require a visa to enter the country.

For a second or third passport many countries in South America offer a relatively easy way for foreigners to gain citizenship. Some countries in the Caribbean offer similar opportunities. In South America I can recommend Brazil even if Brazilian citizens require a visa to enter the United States. I do not believe it to be a great disadvantage though as the United States is past it's time. There are so many other countries which are much better choices to immigrate to.

USA, Canada / REFUSED A HOLIDAY VISA TO THE U.S CAUSE IM POLISH [323]

According to Gallup the countries that most people want to immigrate to are Singapore, New Zealand, Saudi Arabia, Canada, Switzerland, Australia and Kuwait. Sweden is number one in the European Union. Does this list represent the best countries to immigrate to? Hardly in my opinion.

The most important factor to weigh in is the migrant himself, so it would entirely depend upon you which country would suit you best. The United States has fallen low on the list of countries which people want to immigrate to. According to the World Bank the best country for business is Singapore.

In UBS annual survey of global prices and earnings the global purchasing power is higher in both Zurich, Copenhagen and Geneva than in Oslo. Berlin is quite far down on the list. In terms of domestic purchasing power Oslo is even below Vienna!

All the countries of the Cooperation Council for the Arab States of the Gulf have high salaries if you have a good job, but many blue collar workers in Dubai bitterly regret that they ever came there.

For retirement destinations I would turn to the annual global retirement index by International Living. Of course salaries are not everything and therefore quality of life is a better indicator.

USA, Canada / REFUSED A HOLIDAY VISA TO THE U.S CAUSE IM POLISH [323]

Many countries which would be good a choices to immigrate are not a viable option because of harsh immigration laws. Compared to other Asian countries Singapore does not have harsh immigration laws, but it is still hard to immigrate there if you do not fulfill certain criteria.

Everyone who are granted a residence permit in Singapore will be drafted into military recruit training. The penalty for refusing military service is extremely harsh. In addition to this all citizens and residence permit holders are required to undergo re-training every year to remain combat ready.

The Asian culture also offers quite a culture shock for many Europeans. I know of many Europeans who have lived there for over 20 years and they claim it still is as if they just arrived. My observation is that the adjustment is hardest for Americans and Brits.

Yes, the Middle East is not a good choice for western woman to immigrate to. Oman and Kuwait are probably the most dangerous of the GCC countries for woman.

If immigrants are to make a new life in a country it is important that the immigration laws in that country are friendly towards immigration.

In Sweden no people starve but life is hard because of the climate, isolation and jobs are scarce, especially for youth because of the highest youth unemployment rate in the EU.

The lack of apartments is so extreme that one has to wait several years in line to get a first hand contract to rent an apartment in a ghetto in the suburbs of Stockholm! The average wait for a first hand contract in central Stockholm is 20 years.

Swedish people are also very timid and cold, so it is really hard to get to know anyone on any deeper level.

The immigration from Africa and the Middle East has spun out of control and Sweden has the second highest number of reported rapes in the world after Lesotho in Africa. In 2009 Sweden had the third highest rate of violent crime in the EU.

Polish construction workers that come to Sweden can usually find a job. The salary can be good if they manage to avoid paying tax. Sweden claims to be one of the least racist countries in the world, but it is in fact a very racist country towards non-white people.

The reason the Swedish economy was so little affected by the economic crisis is because the government saved in on everything! Social benefits, schools, hospitals and so on. Sweden was very badly prepared for the huge wave of mass immigration.

Many people are afraid right now that the housing bubble here will burst. Sweden was one of few countries in the world where the real estate prices went up during the economic crisis! The Swedish people have the largest housing debt in the world.

USA, Canada / REFUSED A HOLIDAY VISA TO THE U.S CAUSE IM POLISH [323]

I think the economic situation is dire in the United States and when reality catches up with the American people many Americans fill find themselves illegal immigrants in Canada instead. Polish people only come to the United States because of the country's old reputation, but everyone I know who came there left after experiencing the country first hand. The former West German chancellor Helmut Schmidt recently said in an interview that Germany welcomes their European brothers from Poland to Germany. Changing Europe for the United States would be a bad choice.

Life / Gypies/Indian-looking women with kids beg for money in Poland [143]

I agree that gypsies don't belong in Europe and they should be chased away! They definitely do not belong in Europe. A lot of gypsies have recently come to Sweden from Romania and they bring the same misery as they do in Poland.

Love / How easy is it to pick up a girl from a club/bar in Warsaw ? [65]

When the girls come to you instead of the other way around then it is usually a bad indicator. And no, it does not change just because you tell yourself that girls like you just because you are such a genuinely nice guy. Good girls need to be won by heart, not by checkbook.