History / A view of Poland from far far away [14]

Hi Ender,

Thanks for replying... Perhaps I veered to far into my own interests. I only mentioned that for context. My introductory post was way to long I was going to edit it down but the system wouldn't let me edit after I posted (or I couldn't see how to)

I already know people at Ringshule Wroclaw and have connections to Polish HEMA (Martial Arts) groups in Gdansk and Wroclaw, but I'm interested in talking to ordinary Poles outside of the HEMA scene, just to get a sense of perspective, particularly on Polish history.

My real reason for posting here is to learn some more general background on Poland from a Polish point of view. I have read some Polish history as written by English, American, German and even Russian historians, but I have read very little (other than Sienkiewicz) of Polish perceptions of their own history which has been written since the end of the Cold War.

Does that make sense? Anyway I started this thread for an introduction, I have some specific questions I'll get to after I read a few more threads and get a better sense of etiquette here.

G.

History / Poland - Scotland, the untold story... [75]

My understanding is that the Polish / Hanseatic city of Elbag / Elbing had a significant Scottish (as well as Irish and English) expat population from quite early due to the close trade relations with the British Isles, starting in the 15th Century when Elbag joined Poland as part of the Prussian Confederation and becoming well established by the 16th.

From the wiki: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbl%C4%85g#Hanseatic_Elbing.htm


interestingly Gdansk fought (and won) a war against England during the late 15th Century called the "anglo-hanseatic war"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Hanseatic_War.htm

G.

History / A view of Poland from far far away [14]

No, although that one is very good too...

but I was referring to this one. Many HEMA practitioners have watched this clip (which only shows the second half of the fight)

youtube.com/watch?v=kx_vLz-DXjs

Whoever was the fight choreogropher for those films knew some real fencing techniques, and I don't mean the olympic / collegiate type of fencing, the old type which is for real.

G.

History / When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed? [557]

I think the funny thing abot these Prussian towns which keep coming up over and over on this forum is that the Prussian cities themselves chose to be Polish, in the sense that they joined with Poland politically and militarily at their own instigation. It was clear they had more potential freedom within the Polish kingdom than within any of the local German states such as Livonia, Brandenburg, Pomerania etc. These "German" towns went on to fight a war against their own overlords, that most Germanic of institutions, the Teutonic Order, which they won with the help of the Poles, Czech mercenaries, and their own militias and privateer fleets. Ultimately these towns became part of Poland where they prospered as they had never done before, right up until the partition. I don't recall any records of Danzig or Torun asking to rejoin the HRE or Austria during this period.

It seems to me as a naive outsider that religion and ethnic bigotry has been an impediment to the whole region for centuries. Events like the 30 years war and WW II were catastrophes for all the people in the region, German, Ukranian, Polish, it reall didn't matter, civilians were massacred, robbed, raped, armies were annihilated and ground to nothing. It was a victory for the crows and the worms. Yes there is yearning for connection to the old Baltic cities, especially by relatives of the displaced, but most Germans I know have given up completely on the nationalist aggressive policies of the 20th Century, because they know this jingoism only led to catastrophe for their own people. I find more Americans actually fall for this kind of propagandistic rhetoric.

Free trade and local autonomy of some degree seems to work out better historically for the people than territorial jingoism and nationalism. Actually you could argue Europe has been worse off in some ways since the rise of the nation State. As long as people of different nationalities are allowed to live there what does it really matter which State ultimately has authority? Clearly it did not matter historically to the citizens of Danzig, Elbing, Torun et al that they were part of a Polish Kingdom, to the contrary, they sought it out in preference to having German masters who they found oppressive.

G.

History / When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed? [557]


Well, it seems to have gone both ways. You were claiming that these Prussian cities were German for hundreds of years, I'm pointing out that they fled German rule and joined Poland of their own initiative. I mean, you can't have it both ways. Of course governments and conditions changed over the course of 500 or 1000 years, some people fled in one direction or another from various catastrophes, but in the specific case you are referring to, these cities went to Poland voluntarily, by preference. (Just as other Hanse cities had done centuries before, even to the pagan Lithuanians)


The law was Hanse law and Lubeck law which was Holy Roman Empire law. Both were international and not exclusively German. Are you suggesting that the HRE was the same thing as Germany?


Poles were allowed to flourish under the rule of the Teutonic Order? I think you are trying to make all Polish Governments bad and all Germans good... which is ludicrous, not to mention the Soviets were the ones who partitioned Prussia and moved the Germans out as you I think you know pretty well.


That sounds better than demanding "your" territory back or claiming that the Prussian cities were 100% German.

G.

History / When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed? [557]

Gdansk / Danzig ledthe Prussian Confederation which askedKing Casimir IV to join Poland in 1454 and allied with them against their former overlords in the Teutonic Order. The treaty was signed in Danzig. I'll quote from the wikipedia page since you like to use it as a reference:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Confederation#Establishment

"After about three decades of growing discontent, the Prussian leaders (see Prussian estates) organized themselves to oppose the rule of the order more effectively. On 14 March 1440, a group of 53 gentry and clergy and 19 Prussian cities, under the leadership of the Hanseatic cities of Danzig (Gdańsk), Elbing (Elbląg), and Thorn (Toruń), founded the Prussian Confederation in Marienwerder (Kwidzyn). Several more towns joined on 3 April, although Bütow (Bytów) did not. In Danzig, the new members signed a document[1] which was kept in the archives of Thorn."

" Gabriel von Baysen and Johannes von Baysen, now leading the confederation, requested the protection of King Casimir IV Jagiellon of Poland. They also asked for, and received, a guarantee of their continued city rights and privileges for the gentry."

The same thing happened many times before with Hanse cities. Riga allied with the Lithuanians in 1297 to get out from the oppression of the (German) Teutonic Order.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vytenis#Alliance_with_Riga


All of the ones in Prussia, to start with. See the links above.


No I think you are a little confused about this period of history.


It was a bit more compex than that....


I think the HRE included subjects of every central European race, including Bohemians, Poles, Italians, Swiss, Flemmish, Frisians, Burgundians, Hungarians, Moravians, Wlachians and numerous others during it's history. More importantly, it's ruling class included Aristocrats from many other parts of of Europe including Spain, Bohemia, Hungary, Poland etc. etc.

I also don't think you know much about it. But that's ok, neither did I until I read a few books.

G.

History / When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed? [557]

Arguing with history is pretty ridiculous, it is what it is mate.

They asked to become part of the Polish kingdom BB. It was a permanent shift from German to Polish rule. After the 13 years war the city of Danzig and the other West Prussian cities were part of Poland for the next three hundred years, until the Polish partitiion. They eventualy got seats in the Polish senate. They never asked to return to the rule of any German state.

As for their german city laws, independent cities off this type existed in the Holy Roman Empire as well and in many other parts of Europe. In the HRE these were called "Free Imperial Cities". Almost all of the significant Hanse cities had this status. Of course free cities also existed in Flanders, in Lombardy, in Switzerland etc..

There was more than one type of German, the Hanseatic cities were at least as far apart from the mentality of the Teutonic Order as your ideal of Germans and Poles were. That is why Hamburg and Lubeck refused to let Hitler speak in the 1930s

telegraph.co.uk/travel/citybreaks/5428909/Lubeck-The-town-that-said-no-to-Hitler.html

G.

History / When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed? [557]

Seriously? That is the best you can do? A flag?

How old are you?

G.

History / When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed? [557]


do you think the Teutonic Order got control of that area to begin with? The Germans never expelled people from their homes? For real? Do you really want me to start citing examples?

G.

History / When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed? [557]

But this was at the start a Frankish kingdom, which had Hungarian, Bohemian, Spanish, and Flemish kings, had subjects who spoke Italian, Slovenian, Czech, Flemish, Frisian various dialects of German.

As a wise man once said, it was neither Holy, nor an Empire, nor Roman. And it was not exclusively German by a long shot. Saying it has a German "Character" is a little bit of a wiggle from claiming it is 100% German.


You seem to be surprised to learn some basic facts so far in this thread. Were you unaware that Danzig had asked to join Poland?

Your own argument now seems to be it doesn't matter what nation a city belongs to... perhaps you should leave it at that.

G.

History / When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed? [557]


I suspect you don't know much about this. Read up on the 13 years war. It was a war between the Poles and the Germans, with the Prussian cities on the side of the Poles. It's pretty unambiguous. And I'm not a Pole.


It wasn't merely an alliance, they asked to be part of Poland and negotiated the conditions of joining. Be precise.


That is how they described it in their own words... but of course, that assumes that these towns were really German. They had majority German populations and spoke German, but by that standard Boston would be part of England or Ireland.


Step off the nationalistic propaganda bus. Read the real history you'll find it's interesting.

G.

History / When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed? [557]

Are you basing that on sheer intuition or any actual knowledge BB? From what I have read of the partition this is actually true some of the Prussian Hanse cities resisted it until the middle of the Century though it may not have been out of love for Kilbasa (these things can be quite complex, like History in general)

As a newby, can I ask, why do you hang out on a Polish forum since you seem to dislike and distrust Poles on general principle?

G.

History / When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed? [557]

My understanding is that the Ostoja Clan, a powerful Polish / Hungarian family, were influential in the creation of the Prussian commonwealth, specifically within Danzig.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_of_Ostoja

Another interesting figure is a German knight and former member of the Teutonic Order, who parted ways with them and became a key figure in the rebellion

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_von_Baysen

G.

History / When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed? [557]


But if they had good Louisiana Andoullie thre would have been no ethnic strife...

G.

History / When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed? [557]

Actually that is a cross pattée, derived from the maltese cross, it was used by Crusaders throughout Europe.

You seem to think everyone and every thing is German...? The Ostoja was quintissentially Slavic.

G.

History / When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed? [557]


The double headed vulture is the Hapsburg symbol.

But the flags don't mean much really. Most royal families in Europe used the Eagle because they were all trying to pretend to be Romans. That is what Kaizer and Tsar mean after all, Caesar.

G.

History / When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed? [557]

I really don't get the primitive jingoism

News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]

I'm sorry to resurrect the old thread, but as this is something I have been studying quite a bit lately as I've been writing a book on the Medieval Baltic. I thought I would chime in.

The debate about Nicholas Copernicus / Niklas Koppernigk has gone on for centuries and been debated by University professors and so on, and literally been the (partial) cause of wars, so I'm unlikely to settle the issue. I seriously doubt I could convince Bratworst Boy of anything including the color of the sky if we were both standing under it on a clear day!

But maybe I can contribute some nuance and a few facts to the argument.

1) Ethnicity
During this period (late 15th / early 16th Century) there was no such country as Germany. There was the Holy Roman Empire which was largely German-speaking, and there was the Deutschordensland, aka Ordensstaat, aka The Monastic State of the Teutonic Order, which was a mostly German military religious order that controlled a large part of Prussia during this period, as well as the Livonian Order which controlled much of what is today Latvia and Estonia, and many German nobles and aristocrats in regions such as Pomerania, Lusatia and Silesia with strong political links to the Holy Roman Empire. There was also the Hanse or Hanseatic League which was a German speaking (specifically Middle Low German) cartel which linked trading towns across Northern Europe, but also included many non German towns including London, Wisby in Sweden, Vilnius in Lithuania, and Novgorod in Russia, as well as several cities in Prussia and Poland.

The district of Prussia was one of the mixed zones in the Baltic which had alternated between German, Polish, and native Baltic control several times between 1000 and 1500 AD. Prussia was a relatively urbanized region with many towns which were part of the Hanseatic League. The majority of the rural population in Prussia were Kashubians, people of a mixed Baltic - Slavic heritage who spoke a language similar to Polish. The towns in Prussia including Gdansk / Danzig, the most important city in the region, and also including the two towns most directly associated with Copernicus / Koppernigk: Toruń / Thorn and Frambork / Frauenberg, had mixed German / Slavic populations and also included a large number of Scots, Dutchmen, and Jews, as well as native Prussians, Lithuanians, Russians and Western Europeans left behind from Crusader armies. Almost all towns in Central and Eastern Europe had substantial German speaking populations due to the Osteidlung, the German migration eastward, but in many cases the initial migration took place centuries before the time of Copernicus / Koppernigk and the local populations were no more German by ethnicity than Americans are English.

2) Language and Law
Most towns in the Baltic during this period were under German Town Law and burghers (town citizens) spoke German and other regional languages. Burghers in Prussia spoke both Middle Low German and Polish, and we know from at least one surviving phrase book some also spoke native Prussian. The language we know today as German did not exist in the time of Copernicus / Koppernigk. The lingua franca of the mercantile trade was Middle Low German, the language used by the Hanseatic League, while the lingua franca of regional governments and Church administration was Latin. Middle Low German was a derivative of Saxon which overlaps with Dutch and contributes numerous loan-words to English, the Scandinavian Languages, and the Baltic languages. It's very different from the high German or 'Standard' German spoken today.

Burghers in the Prussian towns during the late 15th and early 16th Century spoke both German and Polish. This was necessary because they conducted trade between Polish farms and the towns of the Hanseatic League. Most written records associated with trade were written in German because German was the language of the Hanse. City records were sometimes in German (due largely to their being under German town law) and sometimes in Latin (especially those towns under administration by the Church or the Religious / Military Orders) because this was the international language of Catholic Europe. After the Protestant reformation this shifted back to German in many of the towns after they converted to Lutheranism. But the use of German as a language of record did not necessarily make them German any more than the use of Latin made them Italian.

German town law was a type of charter (Handfeste) which delineated the degree of autonomy enjoyed by the town. Lubeck law represented the highest degree of autonomy, essentially that of a city-state. Kulm Law, named after the city of Chelmno in Prussia (now Poland) in the same district where Copernicus / Koppernigk lived, was a lesser level of autonomy in which the town did not control their own courts. Towns in this time were made up of several small municipalities which were often under different town charters and represented different ethnic groups. For example the town of Danzig was divided into the Altstadt / Urbs Gzddanyzc (old town), the Rechstadt / Civitas Gedanensi (Main Town), the Stare Przedmiescie (Old Suburb) and the Osiek Hakelwerk. The Stare Przedmiescie and Osiek Hakelwork was primarily Polish speaking during the 15th Century, the Altstadt and Rechstaft (and the Neustadt which was torn down due to siding with the Teutonic Order during the 13 Years War) were primarily German speaking, but most Burghers were bilingual.

Just for context, Krakow, Warsaw, and nearly every other major Polish town in this time were also chartered under German town law. So was Vilnius and Stockholm. Nearly every city in Prussia at this time also had both a Polish and a German name, both of which were used interchangeably at the time. Modern historians have understandably dropped this habit and neglected the cumbersome obligation of using both names when discussing the period, but that has has contributed to the either / or mentality of these types of debates.

3) The family of Kopernik / Copernicus
Nicholas / Niklaus did in fact speak both Polish and German. His parents, a Polish father and German mother, died when he was young and he was raised by his uncle Lucas Von Watzenrode the Younger / £ukasz Watzenrode. Lucas was a prominent Burgher of the Free and Hanseatic city of Toruń / Thorn, a Ratzheren and also a Schoffe / Šepmistr, a magistrate. When Niklaus parents died unexpectedly, Lucas sponsored his education at Jageilonian University in Krakow and later in Bologna and Cologne (the same path that Lucas himself had taken as a student). Lucas was from a prominent local family which had supported the Prussian Confederation and the Poles against the Teutonic Order during the perilous 13 Years War, during which there was significant internal strife within Toruń / Thorn. Later in his life Lucas became Bishop of Warmia. He walked a fine line between the Polish and German authorities, the Polish King wanted to appoint a relative to the post and fought at least one small war to gain the right to appoint the Bishop, and the Teutonic Order desperately wanted to re-capture the district and launched many raids into Warmia and attempted assassinations and other mischief. Lucas proved and able administrator and a strong intellectual voice in opposition to the Teutonic Order, whom he advised to apply their aggressive energies toward the Turks rather than to fellow Europeans. (This was advice, incidentally, that the Poles themselves followed when they saved Vienna from it's second siege much later on in the 17th Century). Over time the Poles adopted a pragmatic policy and tacitly supported Lucas in his role. Nicholas / Niklaus followed Lucas around on his diplomatic errands and later in life became his personal physician.

My conclusion, for what little it's worth is this: The man by ethnicity was mixed, Polish and German and probably some native Prussian and very likely Dutch, Scottish and who knows what else. But probably more Polish than anything else. He spoke both languages though most of his surviving writings were in German. His political leanings were clearly toward Poland. Germany did not exist back then, but the closest thing to German nationalism (or really any type of nationalism) were the Teutonic Order, whose attitude was very similar to Bratwurst boy in their belligerence, hostility, xenophobia, and knack for rationalization.

The period of prosperity in this region was characterized by a mix of culture. The Polish Golden Age was also the Golden Age for the German speaking town of Prussia, who having consciously decided to throw off the rule of the Teutonic Order, elected to join with Poland under the condition that they be allowed to retain their autonomy. During the Reformation and Counter-Reformtion, when the rest of Europe was tearing itself apart in religious wars, the Lutheran German speaking cities like Danzig and Elbing and Torun, remained in harmony with Catholic Poland. As a result they prospered while much of Western Europe burned.

In most of the late Medieval and Renaissance period Central Europe could be described as a 'Failed State'. The Holy Roman Empire was a very loose and politically weak patchwork of Free Cities, theocratic zones, and feudal fiefdoms. Poland was and even less centralized Kingdom dominated by the rural Gentry, of whom 500,000 had a vote in the Szlachta. Though eventually both systems broke down, it was a recipe for prosperity for over 200 years, and it's hard to argue that Germany has been better off as a hyper nationalist, Centralized state. I think you are in fact seeing some return to regionalism in Germany. And while Sarmatism was far from an ideal system, the decentralization, religious tolerance and libertarian aspects of the Polish medieval system was at least somewhat successful, at least for the nobility and the townsfolk. It was in this environment where Copernicus / Kopernik was able to publish his scientific observations unmolested, even while Galileo was put on trial for heresy in Italy.

Just my $.02

Galloglaich.

History / A view of Poland from far far away [14]

Jwojcie, Eurola, thanks for your posts. Sorry to revive this old thread but I sort of lost track of this forum after finding it several months ago. Jwojcie the link to that book 'Microcosm' is really great, thank you, I'm going to pick up a copy of that as soon as possible. I think it will be very helpful for my little research project.

The re-enactor links you posted are very impressive, they do re-enactment fighting very hard core in Eastern Europe, one of the things I hope to see one day are the big celebrations at Malbork one year and maybe go see the "Battle of nations". There is a very lively re-enactor scene in Eastern Europe in general and Poland in particular. They even have their own music, I ran across this interesting video the other day:

youtube.com/watch?v=lGupr_ISDtc

But Historical European Martial Arts (HEMA) is actually a different thing. Probably all seems the same if you aren't into it, we are all sword nerds I guess. We study some very old books and try to work out what the martial arts techniques are, and then we fight each other competitively. We do not dress in historical costumes and most of the fighting does not involve armor, but more like modern sports equipment. The only thing historical are the fighting techniques and the weapons (special type of blunt sparring sword called a federschwert, and the dussack). The emphasis is more similar to something like MMA, but maybe not quite that tough:) For contrast to the videos you posted, here are a couple of promotional videos from a Swedish group from Gothenburg my group is friendly with and a Polish group in Gdansk which I also have a little bit of contact with.

Sweden
youtube.com/watch?v=ZQMrbj3Ukws

Poland
youtube.com/watch?v=H7aXtzf7-Lk&feature=related

To give you an idea of the specific techniques here is a video from a group from Slovakia demonstrating a progression of attacks and counters, in a rather dramatic manner :)

youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc

We know this ancient martial arts system from about 200 books which have survived the ages. One of the interesting things about this system is that almost half of the one's thought of as "German" books were actually published in Polish or Czech towns, and some of the historical Masters have Slavic names. There were also some Jewish Masters. The Poles are very good at this stuff by the way, the Polish groups are generally considered some of the best fencers in the HEMA community right now. Anyway enough about that stuff. I promise not to divert into it again!

I am also a great fan of the With Fire and Sword series of films of course. Have there been any other good historical films made in Poland in the last ten years or so that I should know about?

I was recently in Toronto and that very diverse city apparently has a substantial Polish ex-pat community, I was hoping to go visit the neighborhood near Roncesvalles Avenue and try something close to authentic Polish food but we weren't able to get there. We will probably be going back there next year so I'll definitely make it. I'm trying to put together a trip to Central Europe though it's difficult to go to Europe due to the economy and the cost of the Euro and so on. How does US currency hold up in Poland? Poland isn't on the Euro right? That was probably a wise decision...

From what I have heard the economy is good in Poland right now, is that true? Don't mean to open a can of worms there but I'm just curious.

G.

News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]

Actually plenty of Germans fought against the Teutonic Order and for Poland.

Several of the Captains on the Polish / Prussian side were German during the 13 Years War for example. Germans and Bohemians fought on both sides of most of the conflicts between the Teutonic Knights and Poland over the years. People didn't have the same kind of ideas about ethnicity then as we do today.

G.

News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]

When you are discussing people from the 16th Century, it's pretty pointless to bring up World War II or any events in the 20th Century as they have no relevance.


If he couldn't speak Polish he would be almost unique in Warmia at that time.

We only have a few letters by Copernicus / Kopernik, most of what he wrote that survived was in Latin (Does this mean he was Roman?), and a few letters in German which was more commonly used in official matters of trade and warfare in the towns. No letters survived in Polish as you well know but that doesn't prove anything as you also well know.

The old name of his family was written in records from the period. The Kopernik family was recorded in Krakow since 1367, His great grandfather on his mothers side was recorded in the rolls of the city of Kraków in 1396 as Kopernik, his father shows up in the records in Kraków as Niklaus Kopernik in 1447 and 1448. The name derives from the copper industry which the family was involved with in Silesia. There is also a village in Silesia called Koperniki.

Copernicus' father was also the treasurer of Zwiazek Jaszczurczy (Lizard Union) which was an anti-Teutonic Order guerrilla group of Knights, including German, Polish and native Prussian knights. Several of these men were assassinated or executed by the Teutonic Order during the 15th Century.


Yeah but does it help to pretend everyone good is German to counteract people pretending everyone good is Polish? Both ethnic / language groups share the same history, good and bad. Mostly good in Poland from the 15th to the mid 17th Century. I think the region during that period is something to be proud of both for Poles and Germans. But people today from either country have relatively little in common with our ancestors from those times. It was a very different world, one which we really don't understand very well at all (and would probably benefit from learning more about).

G

News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]

This website has some useful information about Copernicus / Kopernik and his family

copernicus.torun.pl/en/biography/1473-1491/4
G

News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]


So Copernicus was a Roman?

G.

News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]


Please forgive me, because I'm kind of on your side on this, but this is far too simplistic. Actually many Germans remained Catholic, like they did in Bavaria and in much of Silesia and Bohemia. The members of the Teutonic Order (mostly German) did not open ranks to Protestants until 1555, and even after than many of them remained Catholic. According to Wikipedia, as late as 1871 there were still 8 million Catholics in Prussia, there was even a powerful German Catholic political party in Prussia in the 19th Century.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_Party_%28Germany%29#Catholic_groups_in_the_Prussian_Diet

While it may be the case that most of the Germans were xenophobic and Protestant in the 20th Century, it's unfair to pretend that was the case in the early-modern period. Poles and Germans continued to intermarry during the entire time of the Rzeczpospolita. These people weren't angels but they weren't Nazi's either.


Why would you assume that supporting Poland against the Teutonic Order was against "German interests"? Who enforced for all Germans to have united interests? They didn't seem to have a lot of unity in the Holy Roman Empire were always fighting. Almost all the Prussian towns revolted against the Teutonic Order, were they all 100% Polish? Elbing, Danzig, Torun ?


I think that is oversimplified, I agree with you that many Poles had German names, but that was partly also due to intermarriage, and the fact that most of the towns had a lot of Germans in them. Krakow, for example had a lot of Germans. And It wasn't just in Poland. Pilsen in the Czech Republic, Stockholm in Sweden.

Are you familiar with the Ostiedlung?

G.

News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]


Of course ... I am en expert on Medieval history in the Baltic region :) But as I pointed out, there were still many German Catholics remaining in Prussia well after Luther. I would also add, part of the reason the German towns went Lutherin as soon as it became available is because they hated the Teutonic Order so much. HATED. Not just a little "economic hassle" like some other posters had said. Don't forget the Teutonic Knights killed 10,000 people in Danzig in 1308, and killed most of the City Council in 1412. This is why the towns turned against the Order. After Grunwald Jogaila pardoned all the German burghers who had fought for the Order and let them go home without paying a ransom. This made them more friendly to Poland. Then the Order demanded ransom money from the towns and killed several members of the town council, and also executed the leaders of the Eidechsenbund /Związek Jaszczurczy knightly league which (relevant to Copernicus) was from Chelmnoland, whom they blamed for losing the battle. Thus they alienated both the Burghers and the Gentry of Prussia, even while Jogiala continued to appear both powerful and reasonable, while the Teutonic Knights appeared crazy and bitter. Small wonder the Germans wanted to switch allegiences, it would hardly be the first time that had happened in Europe.

I would also add, for context, there was always strong tension between trading towns, especially the Hanse towns, and the Church went back to the early Middle Ages. Most of those towns were originally owned by the Bishops or Abbots, and they fought wars of independence to be free. Not just in Germany, but all across northern Europe, Belgium, Flanders, Holland, Sweden, Czech. I won't get into the details because you are probably not interested, but there are plenty of records as evidence. So the turn to Lutherinism was hardly surprising. It also echoed the Hussite rebellion and the subsequent purge of Church control from the towns and Estates of Bohemia and Moravia.

Ethnicity was not the same concept in the 15th and 16th Century as it is today. Poland and German were languague groups, cultural identities to some extent. As others have pointed out, Poland included Lithuanians, Samogitians, Ruthenians, Curonians, Masovians, Silesians, Lusatians, Czechs, Slovaks, Swedes, Scots, Mordvins... and plenty of Frisians, Saxons, Franconians, Thuringians, Bavarians and so on. Similarly the Holy Roman Empire included Czechs, Magyars, Walloons, Flemish, Spanish, Italians and French as well as all the various ethnic groups we consider German. There were no clean lines, and no ethnic police to enforce the boundaries.

The horrific legacy of the 20th Century creates a layer of bitterness which is hard to swallow. I understand it, my family were in the French Resistance and I had several family members who werre killed by the Nazi's. I think it is unfortunate however to deny the historical reality that many Germans elected to join Poland voluntarily and rejected the aggressive type of German nationalism represented by the Teutonic Knights, who were an unhappy bunch of men that would have been better suited fighting the Turks.

Not all the Germans were of their ilk, nor were all Poles saints. History is never so clean.

And the truth is, most of the people in that region of what is now northern Poland, including Kopernik, were at least partly of mixed heritage.

G.

News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]


I said 'expert' with a smiley, I do not seriously consider myself an expert though I am trying to learn. But I am familiar with the basics of the period and subject at hand


I recognize that the exact figure is disputed (usually along nationalistic lines much like the ethnicity of Kopernik / Copernicus), but the number 10,000 is the one which showed up in the contemporaneous Polish lawsuit and in some other period records, and I think it's much closer to the reality than the dramatically lower figures claimed by the Order. It was not the first or the last time a city was put to the sword by a new owner. However many were actually killed, it was sufficient to change many things in the city, including nearly all the rolls of the registered merchants and burghers. And more importantly while yest the disputes were often related to money, this overlapped with the idea of autonomy. The status of a 'Free City'. This is why when the new contract was negotiated with Casimir IV the clause of "Danzigur Wilkur" was put in. The towns wanted the autonomy which they saw as directly linked to their prosperity. But the bottom line was that the Teutonic Knights caused the death of many Burghers of all the Prussian cities, and they eventually started a war for independence against them which lasted 13 years and cost many lives (and a fortune in money) and more wars followed including during Copernicus. And while this can be brushed aside and dismissed, I don't think it was so casual for the people then. Look at people in this forum, World War II was 60 years ago and the bitterness is still palpabale with some folks. I have Irish family who still hate the British from events in the 19th century.


Yes that is right. The Teutonic Order represented a certain type of jingoistic religious - ethnic nationalism which I think was pretty unusual at that time outside of the realm of warrior-monks (the Livonian Order were even worse in this respect) the early form of what later became modern German nationalism. It's no accident that it was Prussia was the State which united Germany into a predatory and aggressive.. and paranoid military State. But even the Order were not as pristine in their racism as people from modern post-industrial States. For example, they absorbed a small Polish* Crusading Order into their ranks, the Zakon Dobrzyński or "Order of Dobrin" in 1235.

Let me make another rather obvious point. It was normal in the Medieval period and the Renaissance for the subjects of a particular region to have a King from a distant land. The British Royal Family, for example, are largely Saxon. The Jageilonian dynasty of Poland was of course, derived of a Lithuanian family. The Czechs alternated between Hungarian, Polish, German, Lithuanian and German rulers through most of their history, until being taken over by the Hapsburgs after the 30 years war. The Germans themselves were often ruled by Spaniards.

As above, so below. The royal families were not the only ones to mix blood. Towns, especially trading towns like the Hanse towns of Poland and Prussia, were particularly and notoriously mixed. Merchants from other places lived in the town for years and brought their families along with them. The Artus Court in Danzig and Torun for example admitted Dutch and Scottish merchants into their ranks by the 16th Century. They had been admitting Poles and Germans since their inception. In the 15th Century Gdansk / Danzig alone had 'factories' from Poland of course, from the Kingdom of Britain, from Lisbon, from Seville, from Bruges, from Amsterdam and from Veliky Novgorod. After this has gone on for a few generations, it gets pretty hard to distinguish who has the pure blood. After all, pretty girls inspire the same sorts of reaction in young men, and money earns the same kinds of reaction in old ones, regrdless who it was tainted with. The only real "ethnic" barriers were across the Catholic / Orthodox religious line (and even there not a complete barrier) and between Muslims and Christians more generally.... but once again even here Poland (Poland -Lithuania) makes an exception by being one of the only nations in Christian Europe to allow Muslims (Tartars) to settle peacefully. At least until the Deluge anyway.

G.

*Naturally, the ethnicity of the knights in this Order are also contested and debated.


Not necessarily. Here in Louisiana we used to call all Americans "Kaintuk" even though we knew most of them didn't actually come from Kentucky. I don't think that really means anything.


Not more, certainly not in the towns, though in some of the Teutonic Knights districts (Ducal Prussia) they remained more Catholic for much longer... but I'm just saying it wasn't an insignificant number. By the 19th Century IN PRUSSIA it looks like Catholics are nearly a third of the population. How many are German Catholics is hard to say though because many were Kashubian and Polish undoubtedly, but there were enough to found a strong German Catholic political party.


See the above.


The Watzenrodes were mixed but probably more German than Slavic, but on the other hand I think his fathers family was the other way around, probably Polish - Silesians.


I agree with that. We know for sure that many cities had mixed Polish - German populations because in some cases theit was mentioned in the town charter and other records. I've seen letters complaining of German and Polish Burghers from a town in Greater Poland near Silesia who were raiding the estates of a Bishop.


You may but I was quite aware of them when I posted them. I was arguing with the guy who claimed that Copernicus / Kopernik was all -German.


I think that is probably accurate. Ethnically, he was mixed, but I would suspect had more Polish blood than German. Culturally he was mixed as well but his alliance was with the Poles politically. Like a lot of the people of mixed and German ancestry at that time!

G.

News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]

Well I just hope I can go and see all of his haunts one day in Torun and Frombork and so on. The photos of these places look beautiful but the closest I've ever been is Prague. Maybe next year.

G

News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]

At the risk of being accused as a "home spun German lunatic self made historian*" I would like to add, for context, that at the time there was no such thing as 'Germany' as a country, any more than there was a European Union. Germany was a region in much the same way as we may today in the US refer to "New England" or "Appalachia". There wasn't even a unifying German language, and the language spoken in Baltic region and Hanse towns was Middle Low German, which is very different from the High German used in much of the Holy Roman Empire (and from which the modern German language is mostly derived). Middle Low German is more like Dutch or Frisian. It was one of 5 or 6 major Germanic dialects spoken in Central Europe at that time.

The Holy Roman Empire has been described (by Voltaire) as neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire. It also was not the Medieval equivalent of Germany as many Americans today assume. It was a very loose aggregation of different small states, ethnic enclaves, small theocracies and free cities and included people of many ethnicities. The Kingdom of Bohemia was not only part of the Holy Roman Empire but the King of Bohemia was one of the Prince Electors who elected the Emperor, and some of the most famous Emperors were from Bohemia (such as Charles IV). The seat of the Holy Roman Empire was in Prague three times. Emperors also derived from Hungary, Flanders, and Spain among other nations, and citizens of the HRE spoke Latin, Czech, Slavonik, Magyar, Italian, and various dialects of French among other languages, in addition to several dialects of German (Middle Low German, Middle High German, Swabian, Franconian, Alsatian and so on).

German speaking immigrants had migrated into almost all the cities in Central and North Eastern Europe during the Middle Ages and Germans were heavily integrated into Eastern Europe, but not as overlords or conquerers. To the contrary, Polish, Czech, and Hungarian military forces proved capable of defeating 'German' Imperial armies and Crusader-Knights on more than one occasion.

Poland on the other hand, was a Kingdom, so in that sense more like a modern State. But it was also very mixed! It was in the process of forming a union with Lithuania and the Polish Royal Dynasty derived from that country. Poland then included vast numbers of Ruthenians, German settlers, Scots, Dutch, Czechs, "Old Prussians" (native Baltic tribes) and indigenous groups like the Gorali and Masovians, and even Tartars and Turks. One of the Polands most famous and patriotic authors Henryk Sienkiewicz was part Tatar!

The other truth is that during the Middle Ages much of Europe was not even at the level of organization of a Kingdom, but was in fact made up of mixed zones of many ethnicities and no effective centralized rulership. This did include Prussia, Chelmnoland and Silesia, where Copernicus / Kopernik's family came from, as well as Lusatia, Moravia, Masovia, and Pomerania. Lusatia was governed by a Stadtbund (city league) of 5 German and one Czech towns** called Związek Sześciu Miast by the Poles and Šestiměsti by the Czechs, and Oberlausitzer Sechsstädtebu by the Germans. Moravia was governed by a Landfrieden / Landfrydy (diet) made up of a mixture of Czech and German towns, clergy and Gentry centered in Brno. Pomerania was stuck in a power struggle between the Griffin Dukes and the towns of Stettin (Szczecin), Griefswald and Rostock. Prussia was controlled by the Prussian Confederation of 19 Cities and 53 nobles and Clergy (inlcuing Lucas Watzenrode, the uncle of Copernicus / Kopernik), and by the Związek Jaszczurczy knightly league.

In these areas, there was at best a limited government and no unified culture, or language, or borders. Who was to enforce racial purity? It didn't exist.

If there was such a mechanism it would be news to me and I'd like to know about it.

G

* would be strange since I do not have a drop of German blood so far as I know
** The towns were Bautzen (Budyšin), Görlitz (Zhorjelc), Kamenz (Kamjenc), Lauban, Löbau (Lubij) and Zittau (Žitawa). Zittau was mostly Czech, the others were mostly German.

I should not have referred to Spain as a nation as it was also a region during Medieval times...

News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]

When it comes to history, I'm not on either side. History just is what it is. We can't learn anything by trying to make it more like what we want it to be.

But through reading history, and trying to be impartial, I have become very interested in and sympathetic to Poland which I knew nothing about until I really penetrated deep into historical sources (bypassing interpretation). That is why I came to this forum.

I like a lot of Polish and Czech authors and I think I relate better to Central European culture in general than to "Western" Culture.

G.