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Posts by Przemos gurl  

Joined: 26 Oct 2009 / Female ♀
Last Post: -
Threads: Total: 1 / In This Archive: 1
Posts: Total: 20 / In This Archive: 20
From: USA
Speaks Polish?: No
Interests: Travel, Reading, Art, Fine Dining, and everything French

Displayed posts: 21
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Przemos gurl   
26 Oct 2009
Life / Is Poland a safe country for people of color? [241]

My boyfriend is Polish and wants me to go there to visit him for one month. I really dont have much of a choice if i want to see him, because he cannont visit the US without a visa, and being that he would be visiting me his girlfriend, they really are not going to want to give him a visa, or he might get denied entry because they will assume he will stay illegally to be with me.

He doesnt really understand why i am afraid to visit. Its just that i have never experienced any racism in my life, and i live in a prodominately white state. Maybe I would have if i was a guy or something, i dont know. But my brothers have never told me they have experienced racism . Anyways i would be very sensitive to this and frankly i just dont feel i should have to deal with it.

I have friends in France, Scottland, Ireland, England, Russia, Spain, Germany & Austria & every single one of them said that Poland is very racist and they dont think i should go there. My mom has been reading lots of negative things about Poland and she crys whenever i mention it. Im suppose to be leaving Dec 30th.

I just want some honest opinions from people who have actually been to or live in Poland. My boyfriend says 'oh you'll be fine' but i dont think he would really know. He has never dated anything other than Polish women until me, so how would he know about racism in Poland? So if it wont be safe for me, i think i would just rather meet him in France. I wont be able to see him for as long as he will have to work, but at least ill still see him and feel safe and comfortable.

Anyways tia
Przemos gurl   
26 Oct 2009
Life / Is Poland a safe country for people of color? [241]

Hahaa. But this is it i dont want to be attacked nor do i feel i should have to defend myself. I dont feel like i should have to deal with any racism. Never have and dont want to . So if this is common in Poland i want to know. I just have a bad feeling about this. There are a lot of countries i would never visit and Poland was one of them. But i really want to see him & we cant go to any other city because he has to work.
Przemos gurl   
26 Oct 2009
Life / Is Poland a safe country for people of color? [241]

Thank you so much newhere2, you have no idea how much better you just made me feel. I was about to cancel my ticket cuz I was seriously afraid & i wanted to hear from a person of color...Asian, Indian...anyone LOL. Ill show my boyfriend your response. I kinda dont want to cuz now he is right and im wrong LOL. But im sure he will be relieved as well, because like i said; He really actually doesnt know.

I think i can handle staring. I get stared at all the time no matter where i am at. And ill just stare right back:) And im always extra nice in other countries just to show people how ignorant it is to stereotype. You know what they say about us Yanks....And why am i suppose to drink apple juice?

You seem a nice person and im sure thats why you were treated nice:) Ill email you and let you know how my trip went XXXX
Przemos gurl   
28 Oct 2009
Life / Is Poland a safe country for people of color? [241]

I read your comment about how you don't feel like you should have to deal with racism if you come here, but I think that is a little ignorant. The simple fact is that racism really exists everywhere in the world and you can't really pick and choose when you'll be a victim of it. But in Poland it's not as big a deal as people tend to make it out to be.

So im ignorant for thinking i should not have to deal with racism? Do you realize how ridiculous you sound right now? That is the most ignorant thing i have ever heard in my life. So what i should embrace it with open arms you think?

Yeah i know racism does exist everywhere. But fortunately i have not experienced it. And if i can avoid a place where i may experience, it doesnt make me a bad person or mean i am ignorant.

You know why i feel i should not have to deal with it? Because i am a nice person and treat everyone with respect, unless they have given me a reason not to.

Do not insult me by calling me ignorant, and then tell me to have a nice time.

@ Cheehaw

Awwww, thank you for the compliments:)

I am always on my best behavior when i am out of the US, because i am representing myself, black Americans and Americans in general. And i always dress as cute as can be:)

I am originally from Chicago, so i know all about how dangerous it is. I do not think it is really safe for anyone, but then again i am kind of a wuss .

Thank you so much for the kind words and reassuring me. Thanks to everyone else too XXX
Przemos gurl   
28 Oct 2009
Life / Is Poland a safe country for people of color? [241]

If someone is green it is very safe .....there has been invasion of little green people some time ago but everything ended nicely.

Ha haa funny and amusing. Im serious right now and really am scared. But more than that i want to see my dude. So again thanks everyone.
Przemos gurl   
28 Oct 2009
Life / Is Poland a safe country for people of color? [241]

Why thank you, you are so kind :) I just wanted to know what to expect and try to avoid some bad situations if i can. There are travel warnings for "brown" people going to Poland on the US travel, org gov or whatever site. I assumed if the US gov has warnings on the site it must be pretty serious. Nobody should blame me for being scared.
Przemos gurl   
19 Nov 2009
Life / Is Poland a safe country for people of color? [241]

Grow up,this is Poland,not Bagdad,they may look at you as novelity,but nothing more.

You are more in danger being a USA passport holder than being dark,brown or Black.

So im immature and need to grow up because im concerned for my safety? Im immature because i called the Polish Embassy and the officers working there told me i might not be safe? I need to grow up, because i actually took the time to ask people who had actually been to Poland what they think? Im immature because on the USGov travel site there are travel warnings for US citizens of non European decent who plan on going to Poland? You do realize im a human being and after hearing all these things its only natural to feel this way, dont you? Or maybe its you who has some growing up to do if you dont understand human nature at this age.
Przemos gurl   
19 Nov 2009
Life / Is Poland a safe country for people of color? [241]

Wow vetala. That was so funny, i fogot to laugh. You know what....I think you might actually be the first person to use sarcasm in that manner. How very brilliant of you. How quick witted and marvelous. That was so cool and funny. I wish i could be so amazingly cool and funny like you. Whats it like to be so amazingly cool and funny? Enlighten me with some more of your unique, cutting edge humor....You know what, at first i actually thought you might really eat my baby... hahaa. Thought it was like some special Polish dish or something. I can be kinda slow sometimes. But then i realized you were actually trying lighten my sprits with some fresh, creative humor and i just laughed all my fears away. Thank you so very much vetala. Thank you!

krysia, I truly thank you for your kind words:) Dziękuję. And also i thank you for being honestly in your first post. i dont know why people are getting offended that i am scared to go to Poland. There are a lot of countries im afraid to go to. I dont think im wrong for that.
Przemos gurl   
27 Mar 2010
Life / Is Poland a safe country for people of color? [241]

Hello people

So I went to Poland and I am now happily back in the United States. I did not have fun in Poland & will never go back. Being that I am only allowed in Europe for 90's out of a 180 day period, I felt that it was a waste of a trip overseas. Now I have to wait until July to go back to Europe & Im sad that I did not enjoy myself while I was there. Przemek was very upset that I did not like his country, but it was nothing personal at all. I am happy that I did get to see him.

The reason I am reposting is to let anyone who reads this know that i did not feel that people in Poland were racist. I did not feel like it wasnt safe, but I never went to any bars or clubs. Actually when i was in Warsaw at the end of my trip I did go to a few bars & everyone was very kind to me. Men were coming up to me while I was with Przemek lol. He took it pretty well. For all they know he could have started a fight, but they were in such awe that they took the risk. One guy even followed us outside of the bar for awhile, with no jacket on and it was FREEZING cold.

People do stare and its very unsettling. At first i felt uncomfortable even going anywhere at all because i didnt want to be gawked & gaped at. The only people that were not staring were little kids, to them I was just another person. The staring was so bad that Przemek even was uncomfortable. He said he was proud to be with me and get so much attention at first,but then later it started to bother him just as much. When i was walking down the street there were people that would literally stop and point at me with an open mouth. But they weren't doing it because they were racist. People were actually very, very nice. Even still I wont go back, but if you are someone reading this who may want to go & had the same feelings I did before I left, I would just go, but stay out of big clubs and busy bars. Thats what I did and that may be why I didnt have any problems.

Any questions, just ask me and ill be sure to answer promptly :)
Przemos gurl   
27 Mar 2010
Life / Is Poland a safe country for people of color? [241]

SeanBM and Wroclaw boy:

I like more glamorous & upscale vacation spots. Like Paris, Rome, Fiji etc. Even New York is more up my ally. I could be more specific but I dont want to insult anyone. I knew that Poland was a different country from what im use to traveling to, but I didn't realize how extremely different it would be from the rest of Europe. Like i was TRYING to spend money, but couldn't because nothing was worth buying. It was all just of poor quality. Everything was even the food at grocery stores. I had to go to Germany to buy good food. Przemek told me there was some special story on television there about how companies have to make everything cheap because people wont spend money on more expensive things of high quality. I understand that people there may not have a whole lot of money & that is probably why. So for this reason I dont think its a good spot for tourists. There is nothing romantic or sexy about it. I think if you are into WWII history, then this is THE place to go. Other than that it was just not for me and I thought it was just plain rude the way people were staring & following me around (not the men at the bars, but others... like they would purposely follow me around a store so they were able to gape at me) . For the two reasons listed above I will never go back.
Przemos gurl   
27 Mar 2010
Life / Is Poland a safe country for people of color? [241]

SeanBM:

I was on the border of Germany & Poland in a town called Zgorzelec. Its South Western Poland. However I did not stay in Zgorzelec because it was so grimy. I stayed in Görlitz Germany, which is a very quaint and pretty place to be. But I did go to Poland almost everyday. I was there for a very long time. And as far as the staring goes, Zgorzelec was on a 15 minute walk from Görlitz and there was a huge difference. Nobody stared all in Germany. I was like 'really? big of a difference only 15 minutes away?'

Anyhow it was a long trip from Zgorzelec to Warsaw so I was able to see some other towns on the way. It was all the same. Some places were of course nicer than Zgorzelec (I am not a small town girl, I wont even go into small towns in the US), but it was all the same. Warsaw I didnt care for either.

On a positive note I did get to try some Polish food that I loved. Perogi (?) was my favorite - Russian Perogi. Then I had some pancake things that had like onions or something in it that I loved and that soup with the bits of egg in it? Loved it:) But all the food was better when it was cooked by Przemeks mother.
Przemos gurl   
27 Mar 2010
Life / Is Poland a safe country for people of color? [241]

Wroclaw Boy: Warsaw is horrible from most holidayers perspectives, you should have just done Wroclaw insetad, you cant not enjoy the Rynek there but in December it wouldnt have been the best. Poland really transforms into a different country in the summer. Its not a vacation hot spot but then again niether are many European countries.

I assumed that I may like it more in the summer time. But for now this was my experience.
Przemos gurl   
28 Mar 2010
Life / Is Poland a safe country for people of color? [241]

asik: Thanks for the LOL's. If you really think youre making a difference you are not.

"Next time you shoudn't be allowed to Poland at all."

That is not for you to decide, and if you can comprehend what you read, you would see that I said I was never going back. So there will be no "next time"

"You should go and visit the a/s places instead wasting your time going to Zgorzelec in Poland.

Przemek must be blind not to see how shallow you are. I guess it won't take long for him to see true you."

1)I was not going to Poland for a vacation, and whether not it was a good vacation spot is irrelevant to this question. However someone asked me why i didnt like it and the answer is: Since I don't fly overseas everyday it would have been nice to have a great time while I was there. I didn't, and wont go back. Simple as that. Do you have a problem with that?

2)There are many places I don't like all over the world for many reasons. It does not make a person shallow because they don't love another country or certain cities in certain countries. I don't think I would enjoy Saudi Arabia or Mexico either, am I shallow for that? LOL Its called a PREFERENCE. If you don't understand that not everyone will be happy with everything for WHATEVER reason, then you may as well go live under a rock. It takes a whole lot of people to make up a whole wide world.

3) You clearly are taking it personally that I did not like Poland. If I don't like Poland SO WHAT? What does that even have to do with you at all. I reposted to let people know about my experience saying nothing about why I didn't like it. Someone asked me why & I told them. I am entitled to my opinion. Don't like it? Too bad.

"Are you extraordinary looking or what is wrong that people are scared/ amused when you are around. Maybe you can tell as the secret?

I really wonder what was the reason."

Clearly your intelligence is not too terribly evolved is it? It doesn't take a brain scientist to figure out why they were staring. And whatever the reason people should be taught at a young age that staring is impolite. That fact that many people there clearly have not been taught that, was unsettling. Nobody would like being followed around and stared at. I even caught some people taking my picture. That's not cool, and I don't care what your opinion about it is. I didn't like it. I am the beholder and this is my story. Period.

A lot of people want to know if countries like Poland are safe for people of color. I am a person of color and I have been there. This is a positive contribution to anyone who is curios. Nobody needs you messing up a good thing with your ridiculous ranting and raving.

"Poor you. At least you found out were to go and buy food."

My mother was a food broker, I know the difference between good and bad food. I don't even shop at normal grocery stores at home, I go to the market and anyone with half a brain knows the difference. If I want to pay more for better food, that is my prerogative. The reason there are many different types of grocery stores is because companies know some people are picky. Is that wrong? No. It is what it is. Case closed.

"Not "russian pierogi" but "ruskie pierogi" and it has nothing to do with Russia.
Wow! Was not even scared to try this poor quality Polish food."

I do not speak Polish. My fiance, who is Polish told me that in English it was called Russian Pierogi. The fact that it has nothing to do with Russia is irrelevant. Every country has foods that are so called <enter foreign country>. Through my travels i have seen lots of foods that were supposedly American, & every time what they served was not even remotely close to something we eat. For example French fries are not French, they are actually Belgian, they are only called French fries because the way they are cut. If you don't understand this, then its not my problem. You're just trying to be vile anywhere you can because you're offended I didn't like Poland. Lot's of people hate the US and Americans in General. Do i care? No because I have the mind to know that you cannot please everyone all the time. This post really has nothing to do with what you're raving about. The question was "Is Poland a safe Country for people of color?" I gave my answer and if you have nothing positive to contribute for the people who really want to know the answer to this question, I suggest you get a hobby or start you own post so you can spew.

Bye
Przemos gurl   
28 Mar 2010
Life / Is Poland a safe country for people of color? [241]

z_ darius :

"Waidda minute! Your mother was a food broker so that makes YOU a food specialist? My friend's dad is a doctor, a really good gastroenterologist. If you are still suffering from the results of the terrible Polish food perhaps you'd like the his son's number? By your logic that'll be as good as being consulted by the doctor.

And what does your mother's being a food broker have to do with the taste of food in Poland? After all she has not visited the country. Besides, food broker is pretty much a sales person, moving food between the producers and the buyers, i.e. a merchant. You seem to be confusing the job with that of a food critic. Even if your mother was one, that still wouldn't put YOU in a position you're trying to present yourself you're in.

I'm not saying that people are entitled to their taste and if you didn't like it that's fine. But to say Polish food is "bad" because you mom is a food saleswoman so you know better is a little far fetched. Polish food may lack a lot of artificial garbage that typical food in the US abounds in, but does that make Polish food "bad"? You're just used to preservatives, artificial flavors and colorants."

Im sorry you also seem to be having a problem comprehending, but if you look at my original posts I said the food from the grocery stores was of poor quality, and I had to go to Germany to get better food. I never said the Polish food that was cooked for me did not taste good, I only said it was better when Przemeks mother cooked it. But that is because everything tastes better homemade. With that being said none of what you wrote about tastes & food critics (lol) makes sense because I never said it tasted bad. I didn't go out to eat everyday because I felt uncomfortable with all the stares, so I cooked at home a lot & the food at the grocery stores in Poland - like produce, meat etc was not up to par for me. Its just a preference, some people do not care as long as its cheap, but I would rather pay more for something else.

The fact that my mother was a food broker means that she was more picky about the things she purchased for her own home & she told me the reasons why & taught me how to shop. Food brokers receive many products to test that they bring home to their families & give to their employees to try. They begin to recognize good products for 100 different reasons. Even the packaging can give you a clue sometimes. The same thing goes for raw foods. If there was no difference on the quality of food here & there, then why is there advice on cooking shows, books, magazines, the internet & sometimes in the grocery stores about how to pick a good _____? I did work for my mom for many years & even if I hadn't: A person with any career passes on information to their children. They live with them, you think they don't ever go home and talk about work? Or find something useful that they think would benefit their children in life? Further I do not eat packaged food full of "preservatives, artificial flavors & colorants". I also do not shop at grocery stores, I shop at markets. At markets in the US, the food is mostly organic which makes it more expensive. It costs a lot more money to produce organic foods. They are more worried about quality than quantity.

"I'm with you on that one. I felt pretty crappy myself when I got lost on the subway in NYC and somehow I found myself in the Bronx. All eyes were on me. It looks like none of those Americans who stared at me had been taught that staring is impolite."

Exactly, and clearly those people were not taught that it was not polite. Im sorry for you're bad experience.

asik:

Will you pleas get a life! Now you are truly hallucinating because you are reading into something that really is not there. Its obvious you just want to pick a fight because you seem to be upset I did not like Poland. I did NOT like it.. SO what? Is English your first language? Because if it is not, you really should find someone to help you with comprehension. If it is, you really ought to be ashamed of yourself. You're arguments for you're ranting make no sense whatsoever. It truly is amusing.

"The reason I put the comments on your posts was purely because of your sooo very undecided and confusing opinion about Poland. I don't care if you liked the country and it's people, this is not the case (anyway you should at least try to like the country because of your boyfriend, it's your loss if you don't).

Read your posts again and see for yourself how in every second sentence you have completely different opinion , here we go, your sentences (I had a really good laugh reading you).

You are the only one who seems to be confused. Do not lump everyone in the same category as you. Its insulting to the other users. Never said I didn't like the people, I in FACT said they were very nice. BUT they did stare & acted very strangely and that was not cool. But they were never mean to me or displayed any type of behavior to make me think they were racist and make me feel unsafe. Uncomfortable yes, unsafe, no. This was the point of the initial question. Why dont you get that? People of non European decent or who look different than the people in Poland that have to travel to Poland for business or any other reason may want to know that other people such as have been there and back with no serious problems. I also think they should know what to expect, why do you have such a problem with that?!?

And even though you have no place to tell me what I should and shouldn't do, I DID try to like it. I stayed for THREE months, not THREE weeks, does it sound like I didn't give it a chance?

Also he is my fiance, not my boyfriend. There is a big difference.

*I did not have fun in Poland & will never go back.
And not long after
*Now I have to wait until July to go back to Europe & Im sad that I did not enjoy myself while I was there."

Let me explain something to you that should be common knowledge. Poland is simply a country in Europe, NOT Europe itself LOL. There are 47 countries in Europe, is this not something that people learn in school when they are about 8 years old? There are 25 countries in what is called the "Schengen agreement" OK? If you are traveling within the Schengen countries & you are an American citizen like myself (or any other non EU passport holder), you are only allowed 90 days within the Schengen countries in a 180 day period. This means that because I spent just about 90 days in the SCHENGEN area this winter, I have to wait to go back to ANY country within that area if I want to go without getting a visa. Just because you don't understand clearly doesn't mean im contradicting myself :) I do not want to go back to Poland. I do want to go back to other countries in the Schengen area BUT CANT until JULY. Ok???

"Another one, where in short I'd describe as "Polish people are not racists but run for your life if you see Poles"

*i did not feel that people in Poland were racist. I did not feel like it wasnt safe
and :
*it was just plain rude the way people were staring & following me around (not the men at the bars, but others... like they would purposely follow me around a store so they were able to gape at me) . For the two reasons listed above I will never go back.

Men were coming up to me ..he could have started a fight, . One guy even followed us outside of the bar for awhile, ..
The staring was so bad .."

Oh dear God, now you are putting words in my mouth. And chopping up the sentences I wrote & grouping them together as you please so you can interpret them how you please. You dont change someones writing. That is just pure idiocy to think you understand what it is they are trying to say when you do that. The MEN that were talking to me in the few bars I went to on my LAST two days there, wanted something else. You have shown that you cant read clearly, so maybe that means you cannot pick up on body language and when someone likes you as more than just a friend. I do not share the same problem. That is not the same as groups of people & individuals following me around in stores, and pointing at me, taking pictures etc because they had never seen a person of color in their life, other than on the TV. Don't understand that difference either? LMFAO

"Or this:
[i]*but I never went to any bars or clubs.
And:
*Actually when i was in Warsaw at the end of my trip I did go to a few bars

In the English language, the word actually means IN REALITY. I had forgotten that I went to a few bars on my last couple days there, then i corrected myself. Its easy to forget because its not like i went out power drinking. I had two beers at one SMALL bar & two glasses of wine at another SMALL bar. I dont think forgetting, then correction yourself is a contradiction. Its youre problem if you are confused.

"In my opinion you have a low self-esteem. This can influence the way you behave or see other people. That's why you were too observant and were obsessively checking if anyone stares at you and if you stare, people stare back or even follow you thinking about some chances with you.

It happened just in Poland because your boyfriend is Polish and it was important - in other countries it didn't annoy you because you didn't observe others as much."

1) I didn't ask your opinion and anybody who is reading this thread will be looking for the answer behind the question in my experience, not for your opinion about me. You're not that special, sorry for the bad news.

2) There is no such thing as too observant. When you are a female, traveling alone (was with my fiance but did go places alone. Wanna clear that up right now as you have a tendency of twisting words, making things up and getting confused) in a foreign country -one that you are not sure will be safe or not at that- with lots of money and a passport that people love to steal, it would be very unwise not to watch your back. You may not realize such things that should be common sense, but again I don't share the same problem. Another thing, the point of traveling for me is to see things & learn about the culture & people. You think observing things wont help me achieve my goal while there?

3) Obsessively checking to see if anyone is staring at me? I didnt know you were following me around for three months checking out my behavior lol. What do you think I walk around staring at the ground? You don't HAVE to obsessively check to see if people are staring at you because its very blatant: they do it without even attempting to hide it. Check the posts on Polish forums & all over the internet from people of color who have been to Poland. They all say the same thing - people there stare a lot. So we all have a low self esteem for noticing it? Please.

4) Another thing that SHOULD be common knowledge is the fact that in other countries in western Europe, there are people of color so this is nothing new to them, why would they stare? I didn't notice in any other countries that anyone staring because it was not happening. Poland was a communist country up until 1989 so to most people it would be obvious they are not use to outsiders at all. They have not had lots of immigration like the US, Canada, UK, France, Spain etc etc. They are not even use to people from western Europe. This is why they stare. Does it make it right? No.

You really are something else, aren't you?

If anyone has any questions for me about my experience, as long as you dont want to pick a fight please do not hesitate to ask. I was very afraid before I left and if anything I have to say may help those who are now in that position, please don't be shy. There is another guy I met from here named Harold and he has been more than once so he could also be very helpful. He is going to tell you that they stare as well, but he has lots of good stories.
Przemos gurl   
28 Mar 2010
Life / Is Poland a safe country for people of color? [241]

Good thing my FIANCE is not immature. I did not like Poland. SO WHAT? Why is that such a big deal & an insult to you? Hey Londoners, guess what? I did not like London. Do you think they are going to come on here and cry because I didn't like London? I did nothing wrong to anybody while in Poland I just didn't like it. Is that a crime? There are lots of cities and places I dont like within my own country. Jesus, grow up. You really are pathetic.

And I dont want to live anywhere other than the state that I live in now. My favorite city in the world is Paris, my favorite people in the world are the French, but does that mean I want to go and live with them forever? No. I like the US. I travel to most places and give them a chance. If i end up not liking the place for WHATEVER reason i choose its my prerogative. It has nothing whatsoever to do with you or anyone else.
Przemos gurl   
28 Mar 2010
Life / Is Poland a safe country for people of color? [241]

jarnowa: why not admit that you are a spoiled girl who thinks she's too good to eat Polish food and to live in Poland?

I don't want to live anywhere other than where I reside now. Why would I want to live in Poland? It is not exactly the land of abundance. Many Polish people migrate to the UK or other countries to make more money & to have a higher standard of living. I know people that live in Poland that travel to other countries, then send the money home every month to support their families because they cannot make good money in Poland. You do not see people from the UK migrating to Poland in flocks, do you ? And we have hundreds of thousands of illegal Poles living here in the US. The reason for that is obvious dontcha think? So why would I want to live anywhere in Poland vs the US?Like I said, if I was going to live anywhere else it would be France, and I wont ever do that. Just because I like where I live now does not mean Im spoiled.
Przemos gurl   
28 Mar 2010
Life / Is Poland a safe country for people of color? [241]

Seanus: That seems more than fair enough, PG. Jarnowa, I can't see what issue you have with her, she speaks the truth from where I'm sitting.

Thank you very much! And you too, jonni - thank you.
Przemos gurl   
28 Mar 2010
Life / Is Poland a safe country for people of color? [241]

Ironside: Why do you feel need to justify yourself - you didn't like it ? - fair enough !
Most people on PF are not even Polish, so, move on !

I dont feel I need to justify myself, I just do not like it when people that do not know me throw false accusations & assumptions around. Its ridiculous. But move on I will do...