cluening
22 Aug 2009
News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]
Hey, guys, nice to follow your discussion, especially in terms of skills.
Some always coming with the ad hominem insults (just learned that term), others on a more intellectual level.
As my beloved (drooling) son is 25% Polish 25% German 25% Italian and 25% Silesian (My wife's father had a german name, spoke German, but looked like a Pole, especially the mustache ;-) That being a tie in my eyes ;-)), I really want to stay at least little pro-Germany and understand both sides - as I know both sides rather well though surely being tought a more rational perspective on things from my German schools.
So, I think the discussion from the German side is due to wanting to 100% clearing the case regardless any emotional harm.
I understand also that most other countries are allowed to have more national pride than the Germans and that the Poles just react very angrily on any suspected (repeated) attack.
But it is none, it is just a case clearing as we now have the means to do it (Encylopedias formerly were not surely discussed a lot, so it is not an argument that in most from 20th century you can read he was a Pole).
So beside that genetical discussion I was not following (though having a broad academic background of natural sciences I consider working in the biological/medical field not really error proof), I want to summarize it again.
- C. was a subject to the Polish crown, while living in Royal Prussia, that had chosen the Polish king rather than the Teutonic Knights as ally. (The Teutonic Knights are not Germany, nor representatives).
--> So the Prussians just decided so and therefore also fought against them.
--> C. therefore surely did not fight against the "Germans", I think the description above as civil war is right.
- Carlo Malagola, in his work on Urceo Codro showed that "Niccolo Kopperlingk di Thorn" had registered as a law student at Bologna in the album of the "Nazione Alemanna".
--> If everybody agrees that his father traded with copper, it must have been Kopperlingk anyway. Why should anybody given the name after dill if similar spelling fitted the professional profile much better?
--> Kopernik must have been therefore later been derived from that name, incidently matching a Polish version (kopernik/dillman).
--> Kopperlingk from Thorn (mostly German inhabitated), father copper trader also working as a local judge (what only Prussians could do), mother Watzenrode, from the age of 10 living with Lukas Watzenrode. Loyal to the Polish king, writing and talking in Polish, too.
So, from logical point of view, at least the inheritage of the family was German (language wise). Whether Prussians were 100% ethnically Germanic at that time is another question.
The Prussians are surely the most eastern tribe and therefore mixed a lot with the Poles before and afterwards, as did the Silesians.
So like I cannot say whether Silesians are more German or Polish (even theoretically speaking only one of the languages, respectively), I think I could not say that he was 100% one or one.
Still, the German language is more dominant and the inheritage of his mother. But in daily life he certainly got a lot of Polish influence too.
In the end it is more about two neighbouring villages hating each other, perhaps having another dialect but in the end being relatively similar.
So, my proposal is:
- We keep the latin name (being derived from Kopperlingk or Koppernigk, dealing w/ copper)
- We name locations how they were named at the time given. I don't call Konstantinopel Ankara either, when I am talking about Roman times. So Cracow, Thorn and Frauenstein.
- We say he was a Polish citizen of Prussian ethinicity
- His first language was German
- He could talk Polish (in my eyes anyway similar to latin, grammarwise, so why not) - living in a mixed environment wouldn't suggest anything else.
And as I did not contribute anything to his work, nor as I do not think that it is judgement about which society has achieved more, I think this statement
Ok, maybe too long for the guys wanting one liners, but thats life / c'est la vie / so ist das Leben / tak jest zycie: complex.
Hey, guys, nice to follow your discussion, especially in terms of skills.
Some always coming with the ad hominem insults (just learned that term), others on a more intellectual level.
As my beloved (drooling) son is 25% Polish 25% German 25% Italian and 25% Silesian (My wife's father had a german name, spoke German, but looked like a Pole, especially the mustache ;-) That being a tie in my eyes ;-)), I really want to stay at least little pro-Germany and understand both sides - as I know both sides rather well though surely being tought a more rational perspective on things from my German schools.
So, I think the discussion from the German side is due to wanting to 100% clearing the case regardless any emotional harm.
I understand also that most other countries are allowed to have more national pride than the Germans and that the Poles just react very angrily on any suspected (repeated) attack.
But it is none, it is just a case clearing as we now have the means to do it (Encylopedias formerly were not surely discussed a lot, so it is not an argument that in most from 20th century you can read he was a Pole).
So beside that genetical discussion I was not following (though having a broad academic background of natural sciences I consider working in the biological/medical field not really error proof), I want to summarize it again.
- C. was a subject to the Polish crown, while living in Royal Prussia, that had chosen the Polish king rather than the Teutonic Knights as ally. (The Teutonic Knights are not Germany, nor representatives).
--> So the Prussians just decided so and therefore also fought against them.
--> C. therefore surely did not fight against the "Germans", I think the description above as civil war is right.
- Carlo Malagola, in his work on Urceo Codro showed that "Niccolo Kopperlingk di Thorn" had registered as a law student at Bologna in the album of the "Nazione Alemanna".
--> If everybody agrees that his father traded with copper, it must have been Kopperlingk anyway. Why should anybody given the name after dill if similar spelling fitted the professional profile much better?
--> Kopernik must have been therefore later been derived from that name, incidently matching a Polish version (kopernik/dillman).
--> Kopperlingk from Thorn (mostly German inhabitated), father copper trader also working as a local judge (what only Prussians could do), mother Watzenrode, from the age of 10 living with Lukas Watzenrode. Loyal to the Polish king, writing and talking in Polish, too.
So, from logical point of view, at least the inheritage of the family was German (language wise). Whether Prussians were 100% ethnically Germanic at that time is another question.
The Prussians are surely the most eastern tribe and therefore mixed a lot with the Poles before and afterwards, as did the Silesians.
So like I cannot say whether Silesians are more German or Polish (even theoretically speaking only one of the languages, respectively), I think I could not say that he was 100% one or one.
Still, the German language is more dominant and the inheritage of his mother. But in daily life he certainly got a lot of Polish influence too.
In the end it is more about two neighbouring villages hating each other, perhaps having another dialect but in the end being relatively similar.
So, my proposal is:
- We keep the latin name (being derived from Kopperlingk or Koppernigk, dealing w/ copper)
- We name locations how they were named at the time given. I don't call Konstantinopel Ankara either, when I am talking about Roman times. So Cracow, Thorn and Frauenstein.
- We say he was a Polish citizen of Prussian ethinicity
- His first language was German
- He could talk Polish (in my eyes anyway similar to latin, grammarwise, so why not) - living in a mixed environment wouldn't suggest anything else.
And as I did not contribute anything to his work, nor as I do not think that it is judgement about which society has achieved more, I think this statement
Ok, maybe too long for the guys wanting one liners, but thats life / c'est la vie / so ist das Leben / tak jest zycie: complex.